Oxidation Risk During Sparging?

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GHBWNY

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Just read something today that I never knew: "As you direct your sweet runoff into your brewpot, avoid excessive aeration of the hot liquid, as this could lead to the development of oxidized flavors later in the beermaking process." (The Complete Joy of Homebrewing, Charlie Papazian, p. 288).

Up until now, I was under the impression that any agitation prior to start of fermentation was harmless, if not beneficial. I am super-careful to not aerate/agitate the beer post-ferm, but before the wort goes into the boil kettle? Really? If so, how?
 
Just read something today that I never knew: "As you direct your sweet runoff into your brewpot, avoid excessive aeration of the hot liquid, as this could lead to the development of oxidized flavors later in the beermaking process." (The Complete Joy of Homebrewing, Charlie Papazian, p. 288).

Up until now, I was under the impression that any agitation prior to start of fermentation was harmless, if not beneficial. I am super-careful to not aerate/agitate the beer post-ferm, but before the wort goes into the boil kettle? Really? If so, how?
I've always followed the belief that you only want to aerate your wort at your desired fermentation temps to avoid oxidizing the wort. I've never purposely attempted to splash it around to see if it actually makes a difference however there's alot of brewers using the LODO method and that's exactly what they go to great lengths to avoid. Cheers
 
So, as far as doing so creates a "loss of delicate grain flavors", I guess I'm still not visualizing the fine line between hot wort being aggressively transferred INTO the brew kettle and a few minutes later being aggressively agitated/aerated/splashed around/foamed up/roiled/etc. IN the brew kettle.
 
With LODO youd want to minimize both. No need for violent splashing in the kettle during the boil. That's just a waste of propane even if you dont believe in the hocus pocus.
 
So, as far as doing so creates a "loss of delicate grain flavors", I guess I'm still not visualizing the fine line between hot wort being aggressively transferred INTO the brew kettle and a few minutes later being aggressively agitated/aerated/splashed around/foamed up/roiled/etc. IN the brew kettle.
Low Oxygen Brewing:
The wort is not agitated/splashed in the brew kettle.
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/lodo-techniques.639753/
http://www.********************

For normal brewing process:
You are correct that hot side aeration causes no harm.
The wort becomes oxidized rapidy after dough-in because the strike water contains more than enough dissolved oxygen to fully oxidize the grain. Because the "delicate grain flavors" are lost almost immediately, no further amount of aeration matters at all.

Hope this makes sense.
 
So, as far as doing so creates a "loss of delicate grain flavors", I guess I'm still not visualizing the fine line between hot wort being aggressively transferred INTO the brew kettle and a few minutes later being aggressively agitated/aerated/splashed around/foamed up/roiled/etc. IN the brew kettle.
The difference lies in the temperature. All chemical reactions run faster at higher temperatures, oxydation is no exception to the rule.
That said I think the "delicate grain flavors" thing is just a load of bullcrap. There are detrimental effects from hot side aeration and they are well documented in the technical literature but they have nothing to do with "grain flavors", delicate or otherwise. Most of the stuff the LODO crowd tries to push is either wildly exaggerated or even completely made up, not to mention unproven.
 
The difference lies in the temperature. All chemical reactions run faster at higher temperatures, oxydation is no exception to the rule.
That said I think the "delicate grain flavors" thing is just a load of bullcrap. There are detrimental effects from hot side aeration and they are well documented in the technical literature but they have nothing to do with "grain flavors", delicate or otherwise. Most of the stuff the LODO crowd tries to push is either wildly exaggerated or even completely made up, not to mention unproven.
Show us some literature or experiment that proves HSA is problematic when homebrewing.
 
Look at the can of worms you've opened now. I personally don't think there is anything to hot side aeration being problematic. I don't go nuts splashing hot wort around but when I run my immersion chiller, I do use a 5 gallon paint stirrer which whips it up pretty good. I haven't had any oxidation problems.
 
Show us some literature or experiment that proves HSA is problematic when homebrewing.
Sorry, but I really don't understand your question? I don't think there will be either academic or industrial research specifically addressing any issue only in the context of homebrewing. Besides that, I don't remember ever claiming, either in my last post or previous posts, that I consider it problematic "when homebrewing", so I don't see why I should dig up any reference at your request??
 
I was trying to avoid your LODO bullcrap but since you addressed me personally I'll cave and open the can-of-worms further.
Oxydation does not happen instantly, that is just LODO baseless propaganda. For oxydation to happen that fast you either need enzymatic catalysis (but oxydases are deactivated at mash temperatures) or for the mash to actually start combusting (and I've still had to witness a mash tun catching fire without a gas burner being directly involved). Oxydation is in reality a slow cumulative process, so ANY measure to reduce oxygen ingress at ANY point in the wort production process will have a net positive effect as far as HSA is concerned.
You can of course keep claiming that oxydation happens in a microsecond and that if you haven't followed the LODO credo and the prescribed "rituals" to the letter your beer is doomed anyway till you turn blue in the face and I'll keep calling it out for the load of bullcrap that it really is. You're most welcome. ;)
 
DOOMED!

ANY measure to reduce oxygen ingress at ANY point in the wort production process will have a net positive effect as far as HSA is concerned.
OK, at least explain this from your perspective. Why is oxygen in the mash bad? Boiling removes oxygen introduced during the mash, right?
If oxidation happens as slowly as you claim, then what's the harm?
 
Those who have never tasted a beer done with LODO have no opinion worth considering when it comes to the value of LODO.

It's a thing. The theory is oxidation of the malt flavors diminishes those flavors. Where YOU would find the result worth the effort is a different issue.

The whole LODO thing is difficult to bring off as if you ignore any of the stages where oxygen can enter the process on the hot side, you've lost what you're going for.

I've been doing this for about, oh, nearly 18 months; it's a process to learn it, a significant process. I've focused on things like crushing the grain immediately before dough-in, preboiling the strike water to drive off oxygen from it then cooling to strike temp, using brewtan-b, using Campden tablets as an O2 scavenger, getting copper out of the brewing process entirely to avoid Fenton reactions, purging lines, using a mash cap and, where possible, a lauter cap. All this is designed to avoid oxidation of malt flavors.

Personally, I think anything you can do to eliminate oxygen from the brewing equation, with the exception of oxygenating the wort after the boil and at pitch, is a good thing. While I'd never argue anyone should intentionally oxidize their wort before the boil, I doubt it matters much at all if one's sweet wort splashes into the boil kettle. The damage has been done at that point.

**********

Before I started doing LODO, I wanted to find a few beers done that way so I could find out of it was worth the effort, which is considerable. Alas, none to be found. So I took it upon myself to adopt LODO techniques to see for myself, knowing it was going to take some time, and money, to do it. Big learning curve, at least for me.

One early indication I was on the right track was the change in flavor of the sweet wort. Done with LODO techniques, it's sweeter-tasting and more flavorful.

One thing this does is make malt flavors pop. So much so, in fact, that I've had to adjust my recipes to account for this. I make a dark lager with chocolate malt and chocolate wheat, and those flavors were too much. I had to scale back. I brew a Rye ale that has 3# of rye malt and 4 oz of flaked rye. The rye flavors were already dominant in this beer, but done under LODO conditions, wow. Almost too much. I haven't decided yet whether to adjust that recipe for this or not.

I have produced some astounding beers doing this process, but the effect is mostly apparent in the lighter beers. I've brewed a Czech pilsner with LODO that is just unbelievable in the flavors that are released. Here's the funny thing: I don't care for it all that much. But I've had others, including one buddy who has an incredible palate, just rave about it.

I'm trying to figure out a trip to Germany to taste what is sometimes called the "It" factor in German beers. I want to see what they produce, and compare it to what I can do.

********

LODO is supposed to help with long-term packaging. My LODO beers are still excellent after a few months in the keg, though they do tend to fade a bit. I'm not using pure CO2 to carbonate with, and there is O2 in that CO2, so there's some oxidation going on post-boil.

*******

Is it worth it? I'm still going through the process of determining that. It's a thing, but the question is whether the beer is better enough to justify the futzing around that attends LODO brewing. Only people who have tasted the result can have an informed opinion on it. But I do miss the days of the simplicity of BIAB, I really do.

I'm close to doing a brew my old BIAB way to see how big a difference this produces. I'll do BIAB and my Bigmouth Bubbler fermenter, in a ferm chamber, as opposed to my RIMS system and Spike CF10 unitank fermenter.

And I'll see.

*******

To OP: I wouldn't be particularly worried about how your wort makes it into the boil kettle. Oh, I'd avoid splashing it as a general rule, but it's not going to matter all that much, certainly not enough to worry about.
 
Just read something today that I never knew: "As you direct your sweet runoff into your brewpot, avoid excessive aeration of the hot liquid, as this could lead to the development of oxidized flavors later in the beermaking process." (The Complete Joy of Homebrewing, Charlie Papazian, p. 288).

Up until now, I was under the impression that any agitation prior to start of fermentation was harmless, if not beneficial. I am super-careful to not aerate/agitate the beer post-ferm, but before the wort goes into the boil kettle? Really? If so, how?
I own that book , read it cover to cover and refer to it often still. I dont recall that passage.
However, I don't cause any "excessive aeration" until i get to transferring from boil kettle to the fermenter, pre-pitch. My beers keep getting progressively better . After settling into my rig and my technique, I've tweaked a few things here and there .I take notes. Maybe done a couple subtle things like step mashing and chilling the wort quicker (the garden hose running constant has done way better than any bucket of ice water and pump. ) Paying closer attention to my temps and gravities. Nothing anyone else couldn't do . I just keep it simple.
 
Those who have never tasted a beer done with LODO have no opinion worth considering when it comes to the value of LODO.

And with that you have made the rest of your post, or anything you have to say on this topic, totally worthless.

And I (and others as well) get hostile reactions from the LODO crowd if I characterize their charade as a cult but apparently as a non-initiated I am not even worthy of discussing it in the first place... :confused:
 
@Vale71 Would you mind addressing my previous post?

How can you argue on one hand that HSA does cause harm, yet on the other hand argue that wort oxidation is impossible?
 
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I still don't understand why oxidation evokes such emotion in so many people.

More perplexing though is why someone who has 0 experience in a subject can fervently claim that said thing doesn't exist.
 
@Vale71

How can you argue on one hand that HSA does cause harm, yet on the other hand argue that wort oxidation is impossible?

You must be hearing voices because I never claimed that. Either that or you're using some sort of strawman argument and thus only wasting my and your time.
 
I still don't understand why oxidation evokes such emotion in so many people.

More perplexing though is why someone who has 0 experience in a subject can fervently claim that said thing doesn't exist.

I really have no strong feelings about the whole LODO thing, one way or the other. I do have a question, however, and this might be as good a place as any to ask it.

If one must have tasted a LODO brew in order to have an opinion about the process, where does one go to find a LODO beer?

I've tried hundreds of beers, from dozens, probably over a hundred, different breweries over the years. I've sampled, maybe, 40 or 50 different home brews at club meetings, beer swaps, etc. I’ve never seen a commercial beer that claimed to be brewed using techniques intended to reduce dissolved O2. I've never met another homebrewer, except virtually, through forums such as this one, who claimed to be a more highly evolved brewer because they had become converts to LODO.

If AB/InBev thinks it's important for the world to know that they only put rice, and not that nasty corn, in their colorless, odorless, tasteless light beer, why doesn't some other brewery think it's worth using LODO as a marketing tool?

So, if I want to become informed, what do I do, short of converting my system to LODO and starting down the path toward becoming a true believer?

I'll add the caveats that (1. I am highly resistant to the power of suggestion, (2. I am aware that confirmation bias is one of the most powerful forces of human nature and, (3. One of the fundamental truths about homebrewing is that most homebrewers don't have very well developed palates and those who claim to-don't either.
 
You want the same company who advertises their beer with dogs, horses, and american flags to talk about the actual beer in their ads? Really?

Best thing to do is try it yourself. It's not that hard... Pre-boil your strike water, add the recommended sulfite dose, cool it to strike temp, underlet the mash, stir it good once, use a mash cap. After 15 minutes take a sample and taste it. You'll know right away if you got it right. If you didn't get it you missed something in the process and need to review it and try it again. All this is well documented.

A lot of naysayers likes to throw around confirmation bias as an explanation, and i get it. But in this instance the difference in the wort flavor is so stark when you get it right that it's beyond confirmation bias.

There is a legitimate question of preference though. Do YOU prefer it? Only the drinker can decide that for themselves. You can legitimately not like a beer with low oxygen process and that's fine. My personal experience is that I prefer all my beers low oxygen now. It was the key change in my process that took my lagers to the next level and my IPAs are friggin epic now. Still amazes me every time i take a sip that i wasted 7 years of home brewing making mediocre IPAs when the only thing i had to change was excluding oxygen from the mash and keg.
 
And with that you have made the rest of your post, or anything you have to say on this topic, totally worthless.

And I (and others as well) get hostile reactions from the LODO crowd if I characterize their charade as a cult but apparently as a non-initiated I am not even worthy of discussing it in the first place... :confused:

You can discuss it, and have an opinion, but if you don't know what is produced as a result, your opinion doesn't have much value to those evaluating LODO, does it?

I suppose next you're going to tell us what childbirth is like, in your opinion.
 
Ok looks like we're down to just silly strawman arguments now. That's the end of the line for me.
 
Count me in the camp that says HSA is a myth. My source is an article Denny Conn wrote for the Homebrewers Association some time ago. His assertion is that HSA is one of those things that originated in commercial brewing and homebrewers felt they had to do the same thing. A quote from the article says...

Commercial brewers were, and still are, usually careful to avoid it, although there a couple of notable exceptions. But at the homebrew level it just didn’t seem to happen. Luminaries like Dr. Charlie Bamforth said that HSA was not a problem. Eventually he and Randy Mosher, among others, reached the conclusion that it could be a problem, but at the homebrew level it was unlikely to rear its head and there were far more important things to worry about. A Brulosophy Exbeeriment found no difference between beers that had minimal hot side oxygen exposure and ones that had been heavily aerated on purpose.

Denny's conclusion was that since HSA was easily enough avoided by homebrewers to go ahead and take steps to minimize it... but don't "freak out about it."
 
You want the same company who advertises their beer with dogs, horses, and american flags to talk about the actual beer in their ads? Really?

You didn't answer my question (but, nice testimonial to your own experience).

Why don't breweries, which have to make a profit to survive in an increasingly competitive market, use LODO as a marketing tool? I'm cynical enough to assume that they, perhaps correctly, have decided that consumers wouldn't care. I'm also aware that most commercial breweries do take pains to reduce or eliminate oxygenation during packaging, which is the point where it probably has the greatest benefit, and assume that since it's a widespread method there's no benefit as a marketing angle (although one could assume the same about the corn/rice non event).

To me it seems that, within the homebrewing community, the debate is between a few converts and a few skeptics; the rest of us are pretty indifferent. This does make for some entertaining moments on message boards, however. :cool:
 
Count me in the camp that says HSA is a myth. My source is an article Denny Conn wrote for the Homebrewers Association some time ago. His assertion is that HSA is one of those things that originated in commercial brewing and homebrewers felt they had to do the same thing. A quote from the article says...

Commercial brewers were, and still are, usually careful to avoid it, although there a couple of notable exceptions. But at the homebrew level it just didn’t seem to happen. Luminaries like Dr. Charlie Bamforth said that HSA was not a problem. Eventually he and Randy Mosher, among others, reached the conclusion that it could be a problem, but at the homebrew level it was unlikely to rear its head and there were far more important things to worry about. A Brulosophy Exbeeriment found no difference between beers that had minimal hot side oxygen exposure and ones that had been heavily aerated on purpose.

Denny's conclusion was that since HSA was easily enough avoided by homebrewers to go ahead and take steps to minimize it... but don't "freak out about it."

An experiment compared oxidized beer to oxidized beer and found no difference. Score 1 for brulosophy. Genius.

The simple explanation here is that there’s a threshold and once you cross it, it doesn’t matter by how far. There is a huge amount of oxygen in water, even at mash temp unless you remove it.
 
Why don't breweries, which have to make a profit to survive in an increasingly competitive market, use LODO as a marketing tool?
Do you think that Coors or Miller could really explain in a 12-second commercial the benefits of LODO to a customer base 90% of whom probably have no clue what oxidation or even oxygen are?

The "just malt, hops and pure spring water" motto is much catchier and has an excellent track record as it's been fooling consumers in Germany for over half a millenium now. ;)
 
Do you think that Coors or Miller could really explain in a 12-second commercial the benefits of LODO to a customer base 90% of whom probably have no clue what oxidation or even oxygen are?

The "just malt, hops and pure spring water" motto is much catchier and has an excellent track record as it's been fooling consumers in Germany for over half a millenium now. ;)

Isn't that, essentially, what I said in my previous post?-

"Why don't breweries, which have to make a profit to survive in an increasingly competitive market, use LODO as a marketing tool? I'm cynical enough to assume that they, perhaps correctly, have decided that consumers wouldn't care."
 
Isn't that, essentially, what I said in my previous post?-

"Why don't breweries, which have to make a profit to survive in an increasingly competitive market, use LODO as a marketing tool? I'm cynical enough to assume that they, perhaps correctly, have decided that consumers wouldn't care."
You said they wouldn't care. I'm even more cynical than you are and assume most of them won't even understand what's being said, and that's setting aside the fact that you cannot really pack such a complicated message in a ten-word slogan anyway.
 
Do you think that Coors or Miller could really explain in a 12-second commercial the benefits of LODO to a customer base 90% of whom probably have no clue what oxidation or even oxygen are?

The "just malt, hops and pure spring water" motto is much catchier and has an excellent track record as it's been fooling consumers in Germany for over half a millenium now. ;)

#cornsyrupwars
 
You didn't answer my question (but, nice testimonial to your own experience).

Why don't breweries, which have to make a profit to survive in an increasingly competitive market, use LODO as a marketing tool? I'm cynical enough to assume that they, perhaps correctly, have decided that consumers wouldn't care. I'm also aware that most commercial breweries do take pains to reduce or eliminate oxygenation during packaging, which is the point where it probably has the greatest benefit, and assume that since it's a widespread method there's no benefit as a marketing angle (although one could assume the same about the corn/rice non event).

To me it seems that, within the homebrewing community, the debate is between a few converts and a few skeptics; the rest of us are pretty indifferent. This does make for some entertaining moments on message boards, however. :cool:

Marketing is largely about getting consumers to see their values realized in the consumption of a product.

It's often, some might say completely, about emotion. LODO doesn't really fit the imagery, the values, that those marketing beer try to tap into.

Reminds me of the old beer commercial where you tap your beer twice on the bar and suddenly bikini-clad women show up ready to party.

I think a LODO argument might be made to the craft brew crowd, probably effectively too. But not Joe Sixpack.

My 2 cents.
 
In my opinion I assume that lodo brewing does make a difference however I'm not setup for it therefore don't do it and have been satisfied with my beers as is. It's like everything with advanced Brewing. 1 technique may not make a huge difference on its own but 20 advanced techniques most definitely do. Additionally until you actually try doing those advanced techniques you won't know what your missing. Cheers
 
I think a LODO argument might be made to the craft brew crowd, probably effectively too. But not Joe Sixpack.

Since this isn't "Lightbeertalk.com" I assumed most readers would recognize that I was referring to craft beer drinkers in my comments about marketing.

I was thinking specifically about the folks who write lengthy reviews on Untappd, Ratebeer, etc. Those people always sound more pretentious than knowledgeable to me. Exactly the type who would be receptive to a marketing pitch stressing high quality.

There are beer geeks, beer nerds and beer snobs. The geeks just like beer, the nerds grok the sciencey bits, sometimes to the exclusion of all else, and the snobs simply know stuff that mere mortals can't possibly comprehend.

All three are pretty evenly distributed among the regulars around here, it seems.
 
Since this isn't "Lightbeertalk.com" I assumed most readers would recognize that I was referring to craft beer drinkers in my comments about marketing.

In that case I change my answer to "they don't do it because it would be a blatant lie". True LODO, not the travesty the LODO cult is trying to push here, is awfully expensive and beyond the reach of most craft breweries except maybe the largest ones and even then the costs might outweigh the returns by a wide margin.
 
I've brewed a Czech pilsner with LODO that is just unbelievable in the flavors that are released. Here's the funny thing: I don't care for it all that much.

That is basically my experience. LoDo definitely makes a difference. I enjoyed the process - I like following strict processes and meeting or exceeding guidelines - but I just didn't like the beer as much (even though technically it's probably better beer). I now follow very tight processes on the cold side and really like the beer from that process - it's fresher and brighter than my packaged beer used to be. But, interestingly, in split batches with some fermented in HDPE buckets without closed transfer (oxidised) and some fermented in kegs using pressurised closed loop transfer (with some active yeast left on transfer to scavenge yeast), about half of my mates who drink my beer prefer the oxidised version (they are quite different beers). So, oxidation doesn't necessarily change things for the worse, it's a personal preference thing. In my split batches above, the keg ferment versions have fresh tasting hops and flavours where you can pick each of the individual malts. The HDPE version is a bit sweeter tasting (despite similar FG) with sort of blended notes of caramel and toffee. At least that's how I'd describe it with my somewhat poor palate!
 
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