Over-carbonated beer

[Miguel Dlm]

Hi guys, lately I've been struggling with a couple over-carbonated bottles, at the beginning I thought it was because of the priming system I've been using, but then I realised they were just a couple of beers that came violently out from the bottle when opened. The other option I was thinking in my ignorance, was that these bottles could potentially be the ones I filled last, having extra sediments and yeast on them which ultimately ends up over-carbonated with the added sugar ?

If this is the case, and my conclusions are right, could this problem be fixed by implementing a second fermentation, in which I aim to partially eliminate extra yeast in the last bottles to be filled ?

thanks for your time in advance !

 

[lurker18]

If it is gushing from the bottles, I would not think over carbonating. I would look at secondary fermentation in the bottle either rom an infection, or the yeast is reactivated by any priming sugar added. Are you transferring to a filling container or bottling straight from the primary?

 

[DBhomebrew]

Gushing is overcarbonation. The question is why. Infection? Too much priming?

Extra yeast or sediment won't overcarb. Extra sugar will. If carbonation isn't even through a batch's bottles that is a clue your priming sugar wasn't evenly distributed through the beer. In a bottling bucket it must be gently and thoroughly mixed.

 

[Miguel Dlm]

yes I am bottling straight from the primary, and in terms of flavor at least they were really good, that's is why I didn't consider the infection hypothesis?

 

[DBhomebrew]

What kind of priming sugar and how are you measuring it?

 

[lurker18]

not saying you have an infection, but that would be the result if you did. I am thinking that you are picking up trub and extra yeast on the first couple or last couple bottles and more yeast will give the extra carbonation and cause gushers.

 

[DBhomebrew]

1 million yeast cells will produce the same amount of CO2 as 1000 cells given the same amount of sugar. Carbonation calculators don't have a input field for yeast population.

It's either the amount of priming sugar in each bottle or an introduction of someone new to the party willing to eat scraps that the sacc strain won't.

 

[Miguel Dlm]

What kind of priming sugar and how are you measuring it?

i'm using a basic recipe from when I first stated, which is basically 7g of sugar per liter.

 

[DBhomebrew]

in terms of flavor at least they were really good, that's is why I didn't consider the infection hypothesis?

I had a six pack of gushers in one of my early batches. At first, they were just annoying to pour. A few months later they had developed a sour flavor. Probably infection.

But my money's still on uneven sugar distribution.

 

[DBhomebrew]

i'm using a basic recipe from when I first stated, which is basically 7g of sugar per liter.

So, measuring with a good gram scale? That's the way to do it.

 

[Miguel Dlm]

by reading you guys, next time I will be more careful on mixing the sugar, hopefully from a second container.

 

[DBhomebrew]

I like my bottling bucket process with bulk priming. Others have success with direct to bottle, priming each individually.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/threads/individual-bottle-priming-instructions-with-cane-sugar.683687/
Also, reducing trub/sediment and extra yeast in the bottle is a worthy goal. It's just not the cause of extra carbonation.

 

[Miguel Dlm]

I like my bottling bucket process with bulk priming. Others have success with direct to bottle, priming each individually.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/threads/individual-bottle-priming-instructions-with-cane-sugar.683687/
Also, reducing trub/sediment and extra yeast in the bottle is a worthy goal. It's just not the cause of extra carbonation.

super clear, thank you! will try next time, hopefully with better results !

 

[hotbeer]

Are you certain it was finished fermenting before you decided to bottle it? How did you determine that?

I'm sort of forming the opinion that many over carb'd bottles are a result of bottling too soon and the remaining fermentable sugar in the beer doesn't get counted in the calculation of the priming sugar. But just as well, not mixing thoroughly, mis-measuring and mis-calculating the priming solution are probably just as equal suspects.

When you carbonate naturally you are just starting another fermentation. This time however the bottles being sealed simply hold in the CO2 gas the yeast produce and it has no where to go but remain in solution and the little headspace of the bottle.

IMO, get less yeast or more into the bottles won't make a difference. There is only so much sugar for them to feed on before they have no more stuff to make CO2 with.

Any yeast, excess or not in the bottle is just going to be trub on the bottom of the bottle when it's finished consuming the fermentable sugars and will go to the bottom. Some varieties of yeast better at pasting themselves to the bottom than others.

 

[ncbrewer]

From memory, a traditional method of priming (Palmer and Papazian) is to dissolve the sugar in 2 cups of boiling water, cool it, and gently pour it into the bottling bucket. Then siphon beer from the fermenter into the bottling bucket, with the tube ending horizontal on the bottom on a tangent to swirl around the bucket. Some gentle stirring is optional, but could help mix it evenly. How does your method compare to this?

 

[hotbeer]

I also have been pondering if beer recipes higher in wheat and rye grains might make a very highly carb'd beer foam to no end. My only over carb'd beer was a wheat beer. And over a certain percentage, wheat and rye gives a more stable head to beer. Or so I thought I've read.

I've only made that one wheat beer. Maybe I should make more and compare to other beers I've carb'd to 3 to 4 vols.

 

[DBhomebrew]

From memory, a traditional method of priming (Palmer and Papazian) is to dissolve the sugar in 2 cups of boiling water, cool it, and gently pour it into the bottling bucket. Then siphon beer from the fermenter into the bottling bucket, with the tube ending horizontal on the bottom on a tangent to swirl around the bucket. Some gentle stirring is optional, but could help mix it evenly. How does your method compare to this?

My only adjustment to this is that I start the wort flowing before pouring in the sugar solution. With a small layer of wort on the bottom and pouring the sugar directly into the wort exiting the hose it mixes all by itself. No need to stir with a spoon. I discern no variance in carbonation as I drink my way through a batch.

 

[davidabcd]

Good ideas, especially on procedure late in the thread.
Since the OP wasn't experiencing over-carbonation with every bottle, consistency throughout was lacking. Bottling from the primary probably is the culprit.
I use the identical method of placing the siphoning tube along the edge of the bottling bucket to create a whirlpool. Lately, I am not opposed to also using a sanitized paddle to increase that speed but doing it without splashing. On occasion, I'll have one or two under and one or two slightly over-carbed.

 

[bracconiere]

this is on-off topic....there's NO chance your malt got moldy is there?

 

[Inclinejj]

Would you explain it like a volcano spewing out lava? I have had a couple volcano bottles. I thought I was over filling the bottles. My buddy's are my test tasters. We have had 4 volcano bottles in The last 6 cases. My buddy had one put the bottle on the counter to text me and drank the 1/2 remaining beer and said it was good but also had sediment on the bottom of the bottle. I was being extra careful running my bottles through the dishwasher then sanitizing.

 

[RM-MN]

Would you explain it like a volcano spewing out lava? I have had a couple volcano bottles. I thought I was over filling the bottles. My buddy's are my test tasters. We have had 4 volcano bottles in The last 6 cases. My buddy had one put the bottle on the counter to text me and drank the 1/2 remaining beer and said it was good but also had sediment on the bottom of the bottle. I was being extra careful running my bottles through the dishwasher then sanitizing.

The usual causes of a few volcano bottles in a batch where the rest are fine are un or under sanitized bottles which cause infections that can increase the CO2 pressure or poor mixing of the priming sugar. I've had the latter in a couple of my latest batches. The priming solution wants to go to the bottom of the bottling bucket and unless you stir it a bit the sugar solution will just not fully mix.

 

[hotbeer]

To update my earlier replies in this thread, I have since had some random bottles in a batch be a seething volcano. I thought to measure the SG in them and it was well below what my FG was for that batch. They were bottled at an FG of 1.010, but measured an SG of 1.001 after all the spewing was over.

So infection from poor cleaning and sanitation of the bottles seems likely. I wish that I'd thought to check the SG of the batch I earlier referred to that every bottle was a volcano.

 

[Teufelhunde]

cool it, and gently pour it into the bottling bucket. Then siphon beer from the fermenter into the bottling bucket,

I know I'm late to the party, and I'm not trying to pick nits, but if it is just sugar water, why must it be poured gently?

YMMV

Lon

 

[GoodTruble]

I know I'm late to the party, and I'm not trying to pick nits, but if it is just sugar water, why must it be poured gently?

YMMV

Lon

To limit the oxygen in the priming solution.

 

[Teufelhunde]

To limit the oxygen in the priming solution.

I guess I can see that, but I would think that the amount of oxygen introduced pouring the sugar water into the bucket would be minimal compared to what could possibly get in there by whirlpooling 5 gallons of beer into the bucket.....but, then again, if you watch the pennies, the dollars take care of themselves.....

 

[Inclinejj]

I also noticed I was over filling my bottles a bit. Only leaving about 1/2 to 3/4 of an inch instead of the standard 1 inch.

 

[hotbeer]

I also noticed I was over filling my bottles a bit. Only leaving about 1/2 to 3/4 of an inch instead of the standard 1 inch.

What does it matter? You either get more bottles for a given quantity or you get more beer per bottle.

I use to fill mine all the way to the top and had maybe 1/8th inch headspace.

While some see it as a problem, I don't. I figure that the pressure under the cap won't be much if any more than having lots of headspace as more CO2 will just remain in solution which will have no pressure.

Admittedly I'm sketchy on the physics part of that issue.

 

[doug293cz]

What does it matter? You either get more bottles for a given quantity or you get more beer per bottle.

I use to fill mine all the way to the top and had maybe 1/8th inch headspace.

While some see it as a problem, I don't. I figure that the pressure under the cap won't be much if any more than having lots of headspace as more CO2 will just remain in solution which will have no pressure.

Admittedly I'm sketchy on the physics part of that issue.

You understand as much of the physics as you need to here. Amount of headspace has very little effect on the carbonation level (unless it is really excessive.) If anyone is interested enough I can do a quantitative example.

All you really need is a little bit of headspace to keep thermal expansion of the beer from causing bottle breakage.

Brew on

 

[Inclinejj]

I don‘t know I’ve never taken a Chemistry of Physics. i though there was a reason being most beer is filled an inch below the cap.

 

[hotbeer]

I don‘t know I’ve never taken a Chemistry of Physics. i though there was a reason being most beer is filled an inch below the cap.

My thinking on the headspace thing is that is what gives you the satisfying phffft sound when you open the bottle.

The sound changes quite a bit depending on volume headspace more so than the pressure IMO. The smaller the head space the less phffft.

My bottles with 1/8" headspace had no phffft whatsoever. So I was very down trodden and thought my very first batch was flat when I popped that first cap off. However it was actually probably better than 3 vols just estimating from how long the poured glass stayed well carbonated.

 

[RM-MN]

I don‘t know I’ve never taken a Chemistry of Physics. i though there was a reason being most beer is filled an inch below the cap.

Have you ever toured a commercial brewery that bottles and watched them filling the bottles. I suspect that inch of space is to keep the bottles from spilling until they can get the cap on.

If you want to hear something quite different, try filling bottles half way and then capping them. It won't be a quiet phffft when you open one.

 

[hotbeer]

If you want to hear something quite different, try filling bottles half way and then capping them. It won't be a quiet phffft when you open one.

I did that last night. It was very impressive. This was my last bottle filled with the remaining beer from last weeks bottling that I opened to see how it was doing. Probably only 5 to 6 fl. oz.

There was a very long, slightly louder and satisfying pffft. The beer being only a week from bottling hasn't quite reached where I want it to be for carbonation, but it's very promising that this batch is on the right track compared to the previous batch.

 

[Inclinejj]

My thinking on the headspace thing is that is what gives you the satisfying phffft sound when you open the bottle.

The sound changes quite a bit depending on volume headspace more so than the pressure IMO. The smaller the head space the less phffft.

My bottles with 1/8" headspace had no phffft whatsoever. So I was very down trodden and thought my very first batch was flat when I popped that first cap off. However it was actually probably better than 3 vols just estimating from how long the poured glass stayed well carbonated.

 

[ncbrewer]

If you want to hear something quite different, try filling bottles half way and then capping them. It won't be a quiet phffft when you open one

Papazian wrote that a bottle that was filled to half full can become excessively carbonated and dangerous if it explodes. I think (not really sure) what he means is that it won't be higher pressure, but the additional gas in the headspace will make a more violent explosion in the event that it does explode. Maybe somebody else knows more about this than I do.

 

[hotbeer]

but the additional gas in the headspace will make a more violent explosion in the event that it does explode

Have you ever had a bottle explode? I haven't.

And I only know people that claim to know someone that has had a bottle explode. I'm sure it happens, but it's probably very rare and doesn't justify the number of threads talking about exploding bottles.

 

[RM-MN]

Have you ever had a bottle explode? I haven't.

And I only know people that claim to know someone that has had a bottle explode. I'm sure it happens, but it's probably very rare and doesn't justify the number of threads talking about exploding bottles.

I have. I got several batches infected by a wild yeast that just wouldn't quit making CO2. The wild yeast worked slowly so if I opened a bottle in 3 weeks it would be perfectly carbonated. 3 weeks later it would bubble out of the bottle after a minute. At 3 months I could have a beer volcano and if left the bottles would explode. It took some thinking as to why this happened and I tried several things to get rid of the problem, like putting a lid on the bottling bucket (slowed the process but they still became overcarbonated), bottled in my detached garage (just made me cold) and a countertop filter with a UVC light but the final answer was when my neighbor died, his cattle were sold, and the huge pile of corn silage disappeared. Apparently the pile of silage was the source of the wild yeast.

Once the silage was gone, I have had to regain confidence in my amount of priming sugar and have made a few batches that were minimally carbonated just to see that they did not become overcarbonated.

 

[doug293cz]

Papazian wrote that a bottle that was filled to half full can become excessively carbonated and dangerous if it explodes. I think (not really sure) what he means is that it won't be higher pressure, but the additional gas in the headspace will make a more violent explosion in the event that it does explode. Maybe somebody else knows more about this than I do.

Yes, it's the extra gas volume. The more the starting volume of the pressurized gas, the greater the volume required for expansion to relieve the pressure, and dissipate the energy stored in the compressed gas. Liquid is different, since it is almost in-compressible. Thus it takes very little expansion to relieve the energy stored in a compressed liquid.

However, it is also less likely that a half filled bottle will reach pressures great enough to explode. With only half the beer to start with, you only get half the CO2 generated, so half filled bottles are likely to be severely under carbonated if correctly primed, and less likely to explode if over primed (or infected.)

Brew on

 

[ncbrewer]

Have you ever had a bottle explode? I haven't.

And I only know people that claim to know someone that has had a bottle explode. I'm sure it happens, but it's probably very rare and doesn't justify the number of threads talking about exploding bottles.

Yes, I've had bottles explode. Only one in recent years. I must have missed some crud in the bottle because the rest of the batch was perfectly fine. I had some explode many years ago, but I don't remember the circumstances. It's enough of a hazard that I pay attention to anything that could cause an explosion, including hop creep, diastaticus yeast, bottle fill level, etc.