Only a "little sour" Sour Beers

[bailey mountain brewer]

I'm about an hour and a half from philly, also not a sour fan, made it for my sisters but had the same experience with 1 packet then a second.. we take the train from outside of Harrisburg to 30th street station, didn't get to visit this past year obviously but usually go a couple times.

 

[Gusso]

I'm about an hour and a half from philly, also not a sour fan, made it for my sisters but had the same experience with 1 packet then a second.. we take the train from outside of Harrisburg to 30th street station, didn't get to visit this past year obviously but usually go a couple times.

I grew up inner city - mostly Port Richmond, some Fishtown. If you're near Fishtown on your visits, check out Andy's Korean Chicken. Or Murph's, yes Murph's for great Italian.

 

[bailey mountain brewer]

Last time I was in fishtown was about 5 years ago, during philly beer week... cant honestly say I remember everything from that event but I really enjoyed all the places we went... funny though, Murph's for Italian... I'll remember that.

 

[Gusso]

Last time I was in fishtown was about 5 years ago, during philly beer week... cant honestly say I remember everything from that event but I really enjoyed all the places we went... funny though, Murph's for Italian... I'll remember that.

That's funny, I thought the same thing. Irish bar with Italian food. Fantastic food.

 

[Beenym88]

Unfortunately me thinking I had activity was misguided it bubbles slowly yesterday I checked today and absolutely nothing so I added some yeast nutrient. I’ve never had this happen before with other yeasts.

 

[Monmouth00]

So, if you're interested, here's the total plan - feel free to comment if you see a problem in the process:

Water, starting with Distilled, will have some additions to meet the following profile, using a yellow balanced Bru 'n Water profile:
Ca-64ppm, Sulfate-99ppm, CL-59ppm - making mash approx. 5.3 pH

4.5# pilsner
4.5# white wheat
35' Mash at 150F
15' Mash at 160F
10' Mash at 168F

60' Boil .5oz Hellertauer Hops
10' Boil .5oz Mosaic Hops
10" Boil 1 lbs. Belgian Candi Syrup
10' Boil .5 oz. sea salt

Pitch 1 packet Philly Sour at 68F - Day one
Pitch 1 packet US-05 at 65-68F - Day 5 (or when primary fermentation is close to done)
Pitch 49 oz. Blood Orange Puree - Day 5 (or same time as US-05)

Thoughts? Criticisms? General nasty comments directed towards my mother, or to the NY Giants (from you Philly guys)?

Thanks,

Monmouth

 

[Beenym88]

If you pitch the blood orange at the same time the yeast will eat up most of the flavor. I’m currently considering giving up on mine it’s 2 days in there’s no activity for a gravity reading it didn’t move so if nothing by tomorrow morning I’m pitching 05 and it’s just going to be a fruited wheat beer. So far I’m not a fan of this yeast but hoping it turns around.

 

[Broothru]

So, if you're interested, here's the total plan - feel free to comment if you see a problem in the process:

Water, starting with Distilled, will have some additions to meet the following profile, using a yellow balanced Bru 'n Water profile:
Ca-64ppm, Sulfate-99ppm, CL-59ppm - making mash approx. 5.3 pH

4.5# pilsner
4.5# white wheat
35' Mash at 150F
15' Mash at 160F
10' Mash at 168F

60' Boil .5oz Hellertauer Hops
10' Boil .5oz Mosaic Hops
10" Boil 1 lbs. Belgian Candi Syrup
10' Boil .5 oz. sea salt

Pitch 1 packet Philly Sour at 68F - Day one
Pitch 1 packet US-05 at 65-68F - Day 5 (or when primary fermentation is close to done)
Pitch 49 oz. Blood Orange Puree - Day 5 (or same time as US-05)

Thoughts? Criticisms? General nasty comments directed towards my mother, or to the NY Giants (from you Philly guys)?

Thanks,

Monmouth

I literally have ALL the ingredients listed, right down to the 49 oz. Blood Orange puree and the Belgian Candi Syrup. The puree was for a Blood Orange pale ale (or American Wheat; never could decide on which one to brew, so.....), and the Belgian syrup was for "something" that also never got done. I'd planned to use the Philly Sour yeast for a Key Lime sour for this Summer's 'beach beer'. Gonna' have to reshuffle the line up I guess.

So, if I follow this thread, people are finding that the Philly isn't finishing the fermentation, or is it just not finishing fast enough? I thought it was supposed to do double duty as the souring yeast and the fully attenuating yeast. The process you outline looks like a traditional souring, which I view as "pre-souring" for a few days followed by a more traditional fermenting pitch. It almost seems like a co-pitch with US-05 might attenuate too much, given the amount of simple sugars in the puree and Belgian Candi.

I'm not sure if my thinking on this is correct, since I've never fermented with Philly Sour yeast, let alone ever brewed a sour. I'm wanting to give this type of beer a try but have shied away from it till now. I really like your recipe and think I'll brew it as is until day 5 of the "Philly ferment" to see how the attenuation is doing before pitching the US-05. Have you thought about other yeasts, like Nottingham? What sort of gravity are you anticipating on Day 5 when you co-pitch the US-05?

Lots of questions here. I'm really anxious to hear how it works out for you.

 

[SRJHops]

So, if you're interested, here's the total plan - feel free to comment if you see a problem in the process:

Water, starting with Distilled, will have some additions to meet the following profile, using a yellow balanced Bru 'n Water profile:
Ca-64ppm, Sulfate-99ppm, CL-59ppm - making mash approx. 5.3 pH

4.5# pilsner
4.5# white wheat
35' Mash at 150F
15' Mash at 160F
10' Mash at 168F

60' Boil .5oz Hellertauer Hops
10' Boil .5oz Mosaic Hops
10" Boil 1 lbs. Belgian Candi Syrup
10' Boil .5 oz. sea salt

Pitch 1 packet Philly Sour at 68F - Day one
Pitch 1 packet US-05 at 65-68F - Day 5 (or when primary fermentation is close to done)
Pitch 49 oz. Blood Orange Puree - Day 5 (or same time as US-05)

Thoughts? Criticisms? General nasty comments directed towards my mother, or to the NY Giants (from you Philly guys)?

Thanks,

Monmouth

I agree with Beenym88 that if you pitch the 05 yeast and the fruit slurry at the same time, you will be reducing the flavor. (Might as well add the fruit at the end of the boil in this case.) But better results would probably come from waiting until both yeasts have finished, probably 10 - 14 days (Philly Sour is really slow). Then add the fruit. I would then let it condition for 2 weeks, but love to hear what others suggest.

Also, I'd just use cane sugar instead of the candi syrup. It's the same thing and a lot cheaper. I add mine at First Wort, though most folks seem to add it at the end of the boil. I have yet to read why it matters.... I just find it a lot easier to do at FW and it ensure it dissolves.

I'd also be interested in the premise that adding the 05 will reduce the total amount of sourness, as opposed to just using 2 packs of Philly Sour. Does that mean using 2 packets of Philly Sour produces more sourness and lower final ph? I would think not, but interested in what others think...

 

[bailey mountain brewer]

Just a little that I learned from brewing with it, 2 packs of philly sour for a 5 gal batch is needed. When it starts working it produces the lactic which gives you the sour, then it will slow down and a couple days later it takes off again, this is the alcohol producing stage. I pitched 2 packs into about 5.5 gallon of wort, it took off and stopped in a day or 2 then took off again a couple days later... Super weird, I was worried on day 3 and 4 when nothing was happening. In the end it fermented down to 1.014 which was in a good fg range for me. I did not test the final ph and I dont like sours as mentioned above but the people who I gave the beer to said it is good and for my first attempt at a sour I cant complain. I did taste it and felt it wasn't overly sour, a little tart but not like eating a sour patch kid.

 

[Monmouth00]

Lots of questions here. I'm really anxious to hear how it works out for you.

This is a totally unguided experiment from a relatively new BIAB brewer, so take it for what it is. I bear no responsibility for the success or failure of mine, yours, or anyone else's brew!

Ok, now that I've absolved myself:

I had read in a reddit thread that if I pitch the Philly and the US-05 together, the US-05 will definitely out-compete the Philly, and it won't sour. Philly apparently sours first, then slowly starts to work on the sugars. I'm going to monitor it closely to see when it's really close to finishing before pitching the US-05. Apparently, the "sour" part of the yeast goes after simple sugars first (like the candi syrup) and the rest goes after the more complex ones.

I hadn't considered another yeast - I've been liking US-05 for the German ales lately, as it clears up pretty nicely after a quick cold crash. I think it pairs well with the Hellertauer and Mosaic I'm sprinkling in.

Based on @Beenym88 advice, I might wait until the US-05 is finished to pitch the blood orange, then wait another week before racking.

I don't have my numbers in front of me, but based on the size of the grain bill, the added candi, and the finishing puree, I suspect his one is going to finish with a relatively high ABV for the style. The idea is, if I don't like the sour (I probably won't), it will at least get me drunk enough fast so I don't mind the taste.

I'll definitely keep everyone posted. There seems to be a lot of unanswered questions about this new yeast. I don't mind being the guinea pig.

Cheers.

 

[Broothru]

This is a totally unguided experiment from a relatively new BIAB brewer, so take it for what it is. I bear no responsibility for the success or failure of mine, yours, or anyone else's brew!

Ok, now that I've absolved myself:

I had read in a reddit thread that if I pitch the Philly and the US-05 together, the US-05 will definitely out-compete the Philly, and it won't sour. Philly apparently sours first, then slowly starts to work on the sugars. I'm going to monitor it closely to see when it's really close to finishing before pitching the US-05. Apparently, the "sour" part of the yeast goes after simple sugars first (like the candi syrup) and the rest goes after the more complex ones.

I hadn't considered another yeast - I've been liking US-05 for the German ales lately, as it clears up pretty nicely after a quick cold crash. I think it pairs well with the Hellertauer and Mosaic I'm sprinkling in.

Based on @Beenym88 advice, I might wait until the US-05 is finished to pitch the blood orange, then wait another week before racking.

I don't have my numbers in front of me, but based on the size of the grain bill, the added candi, and the finishing puree, I suspect his one is going to finish with a relatively high ABV for the style. The idea is, if I don't like the sour (I probably won't), it will at least get me drunk enough fast so I don't mind the taste.

I'll definitely keep everyone posted. There seems to be a lot of unanswered questions about this new yeast. I don't mind being the guinea pig.

Cheers.

I hear ya'. My guinea pigs will be my son and son-in-law at the beach this summer, They'll drink anything. My wife doesn't like beer of any sort, so I'm not worried about her critique. My daughter-in-law is 'with child' #3 so she's out. My daughter is probably my most critical and accurate taster, so she'll be the one whose opinion I take seriously. And she can be brutal.

I think @Beenym88 has it right about the puree, and I'm second-guessing the Belgian Candi since the syrup I have is dark and I don't want any molasses tastes muddying the mix. Also don't want it to be an alcohol bomb so the sugars may get throttled back a little.

Really getting excited about trying this out, but it'll have to be #4 on the "to do" list. #1 is the beach IPA which HAS to get done before any others, #2 & #3 are parallel re-brews of my Best in Show winner from two years ago for the brewery that's going to make it for this year's competition promotion. Last year's comp got cancelled due to Covid. They had suggested some modifications (no step mash, subbing 2-row for 6-row, a subtle change in hops and bittering), mostly to accommodate their end of the process. I told them I'd brew it my way and their way to compare if there are any significant changes, so that's brews 2&3. The sour will be #4, ahead of any fizzy yellow lawn mower beers, I guess.

Keep us/me advised of how it works out with the recipe.

 

[maxr]

If you're just after sour without the complexity of a mixed fermentation, you can just add lactic acid to suit your preference. Philly sour does produce a nice tartness, and the sourness can be controlled with pitching rate. Over- and under-pitching both produce less sourness. I think that the overall character produced by this yeast is less desirable and you might prefer to use an ale yeast like US-05 and sour via lactic acid and/or an addition of acidulated malt.

 

[Monmouth00]

#2 & #3 are parallel re-brews of my Best in Show winner

Super cool! What style are #2-3? That's awesome you're going to get to go full-scale with one of your beers. That's a great prize for winning a competition!

I promise to keep you posted.

If you're just after sour without the complexity of a mixed fermentation, you can just add lactic acid to suit your preference. Philly sour does produce a nice tartness, and the sourness can be controlled with pitching rate. Over- and under-pitching both produce less sourness. I think that the overall character produced by this yeast is less desirable and you might prefer to use an ale yeast like US-05 and sour via lactic acid and/or an addition of acidulated malt.

I'm definitely not a sour guy. I don't even know why I'm doing this beer. I started daydreaming about it, and bought the ingredients before I even really thought about the fact that I might end up with 5 gallons of something I don't like, and maybe can't even pawn off to friends. The yeast will be perfect for some crisp tartness, because I definitely don't want ay more than that.

 

[Beenym88]

This is my first attempt with using Philly sour I finally have krasuen yay! But I have to very much disagree with just spiking beer with lactic acid I don’t know how the philly sour will turn out but if I don’t like it I’ll just continue to kettle sour. Spiking with lactic acid in my opinion is not a good taste but I also love sour beers.

 

[maxr]

This is my first attempt with using Philly sour I finally have krasuen yay! But I have to very much disagree with just spiking beer with lactic acid I don’t know how the philly sour will turn out but if I don’t like it I’ll just continue to kettle sour. Spiking with lactic acid in my opinion is not a good taste but I also love sour beers.

My experience with philly sour is that it produces some undesirable fermentation characteristics including apple flavor that could clash with other fruit flavors. I really do not care for any apple flavor or aroma in beer.

I suggest adding lactic to the OP in this fruited beer because there is enough going on in this beer that a clean lactic sourness may be acceptable. FWIW I have used lactic additions in the keg for ribbon-winning gose.

 

[Monmouth00]

My experience with philly sour is that it produces some undesirable fermentation characteristics including apple flavor that could clash with other fruit flavors. I really do not care for any apple flavor or aroma in beer.

I suggest adding lactic to the OP in this fruited beer because there is enough going on in this beer that a clean lactic sourness may be acceptable. FWIW I have used lactic additions in the keg for ribbon-winning gose.

I might give it a go eventually, but without a pH meter, and a good understanding of additions per volume, I’m very reluctant.
Next time might try more acidulated malt to drop the pH at the end of the mash.

 

[maxr]

You don't need a pH meter. You can just dose a known volume of beer (e.g. 100 mL) in a glass and then multiply by the appropriate ratio to determine the dose for the batch that suits your preferences.

 

[Broothru]

Super cool! What style are #2-3? That's awesome you're going to get to go full-scale with one of your beers. That's a great prize for winning a competition!

I promise to keep you posted.



I'm definitely not a sour guy. I don't even know why I'm doing this beer. I started daydreaming about it, and bought the ingredients before I even really thought about the fact that I might end up with 5 gallons of something I don't like, and maybe can't even pawn off to friends. The yeast will be perfect for some crisp tartness, because I definitely don't want ay more than that.

The BoS was a Pre-Prohibition lager that I've worked on and off trying to perfect for at least 10 years. I've won several ribbons over that time but never scored high enough or 'wowed' the judges enough to score a Bestie. We were going to brew it about a year ago, but that didn't work out so well. I fell behind in my brewing since both beers should be lagering already! The best part about winning was the fact that I won with a more traditional beer, rather than the fancy new beers (do we really need nearly a dozen sub-categories for IPAs?). I mean, I like variety as much as anyone else, but winning a large competition with an American lager??!??

As for Sours, at least they've been around for a while. I agree, it's not my favorite style, though I did take a bit of a liking to Dogfish Head's "Sea Quench" a couple of years ago as a nice beach beer, though it was more of a gose. I'm thinking I'll brew this one under Category 4X (Provisional) guidelines for a Catherina Sour beer.

 

[Monmouth00]

Awesome awesome awesome. Congratulations on your win with a traditional beer. Keep it up!!

 

[Monmouth00]

So, I pitched the Philly Sour on Sunday afternoon. Temp was about 68F, but a day after pitching (and not having the heat on in the house) the temp had dropped to 63.5F. I put my inkbird and heating mat on it, set to 69F, and covered with a layer of reflectix and a blanket on top. By Tuesday evening it had risen to about 68F again, and there was a healthy white krausen on top. My CO2 bladder was also filled up.

I plan on letting it go until about Thursday evening, when I'll pitch the US-05 to stop the lactic fermentation (if it hasn't already stopped). I'm heading out of town for the weekend, and will ask the wife to keep an eye on it, but I expect to come home to a completed fermentation.

I'll continue to keep you posted.

Cheers!!

 

[Monmouth00]

Pitched the US-05 on Thursday evening - it's Tuesday today.

I plan to get the blood orange puree going soon, but am thinking better of just dumping it into the primary (which I might end up doing anyway).

Is there a better method that won't increase the risk of oxidizing? I can't do a closed transfer with my setup yet, and don't want to waste CO2 trying to purge a secondary.

Thanks for your thoughts.....

 

[k-os]

Pitched the US-05 on Thursday evening - it's Tuesday today.

I plan to get the blood orange puree going soon, but am thinking better of just dumping it into the primary (which I might end up doing anyway).

Is there a better method that won't increase the risk of oxidizing? I can't do a closed transfer with my setup yet, and don't want to waste CO2 trying to purge a secondary.

Thanks for your thoughts.....

What kind of fermenter are you using?

 

[Monmouth00]

What kind of fermenter are you using?

It's a Big Mouth Bubbler.

 

[k-os]

It's a Big Mouth Bubbler.

Oxidation won't be much of a concern since fermentation will start up again when adding the fruit puree (assuming you're letting it ferment out). You could always feed low pressure CO2 from your tank in to the fermenter as you pour the puree in through a funnel. I do similar when I dry hop at terminal in my Flex+ fermenters. I feed CO2 through my gas post at around 2-3 PSI as I open the center lid and add my dry hops.

 

[Bobby_M]

I think the idea of delaying the addition of fruit to retain flavor is corrupt. If you let the beer ferment all the way out, then add the fruit, fermentation will still fire back up again and drive flavors and aromas away. You're not going to stop yeast from consuming sugars unless they are approaching alcohol poisoning. It's a different product, but all the top mead makers make their melomels with the fruit added on day one.

In any case, whether adding fruit or dry hops, I always add it carefully and purge with CO2 for a couple minutes after.

It's water under the bridge at this point, but the key with sours is to consider the overall balance. When adding acidic fruits like some berries and all citrus, you need to back off on IBUs and/or kettle souring. Fruit acids, Lactic Acid from souring, and hop IBUs are all on the same team that counteract residual sweetness. If you have all three in a beer, they all better be minimal if you don't want your face to implode.

 

[Snuffy]

The only souring method I’ve used is the co-souring one I got from the thread here at HBT. If you want a mild sour that brews dependably like you would expect with normal yeast action, it does the job. I let it ferment normally for about 5 days and then hop to stop. And the Swansons lacto capsules are by far the least expensive way to go. 8 bucks from Amazon and I will never use them all. Only needs one per batch. As long as you don’t need much hop action, you are good. I have tried hop teas made several ways combined with dry hopping and I have come to the conclusion that I will never get a hoppy sour with this method - but that’s ok. I also gave up on adding a fruit character to beer with actual fruit some time ago. Once you’ve fermented the sugar out of a fruit, what’s left is not what you expected in every attempt I’ve made. Cherries and raspberries get close, but it’s like trying to imagine a flavor from nothing but an aroma and a residual tartness. The flavor concentrates added before bottling are the only way I’ve ever added a recognizable fruit character to a beer. I’m pretty much over that whole fruit beer phase now anyway. Just brew for a limited number of hardtails anymore so flavors are out - but I do enjoy a good sour.

 

[Miraculix]

The only souring method I’ve used is the co-souring one I got from the thread here at HBT. If you want a mild sour that brews dependably like you would expect with normal yeast action, it does the job. I let it ferment normally for about 5 days and then hop to stop. And the Swansons lacto capsules are by far the least expensive way to go. 8 bucks from Amazon and I will never use them all. Only needs one per batch. As long as you don’t need much hop action, you are good. I have tried hop teas made several ways combined with dry hopping and I have come to the conclusion that I will never get a hoppy sour with this method - but that’s ok. I also gave up on adding a fruit character to beer with actual fruit some time ago. Once you’ve fermented the sugar out of a fruit, what’s left is not what you expected in every attempt I’ve made. Cherries and raspberries get close, but it’s like trying to imagine a flavor from nothing but an aroma and a residual tartness. The flavor concentrates added before bottling are the only way I’ve ever added a recognizable fruit character to a beer. I’m pretty much over that whole fruit beer phase now anyway. Just brew for a limited number of hardtails anymore so flavors are out - but I do enjoy a good sour.

You have to have an adequate volume of water to get the desired amount of ibus into solution, if you want it really hoppy. It certainly is possible to get it really hoppy this way, I once overhopped a beer this way by accident. A quarter of the total final beer volume should be enough to dissolve all the ibus you need. Just keep everything else out of it, except for water and hops.

 

[Monmouth00]

I think the idea of delaying the addition of fruit to retain flavor is corrupt. If you let the beer ferment all the way out, then add the fruit, fermentation will still fire back up again and drive flavors and aromas away. You're not going to stop yeast from consuming sugars unless they are approaching alcohol poisoning. It's a different product, but all the top mead makers make their melomels with the fruit added on day one.

In any case, whether adding fruit or dry hops, I always add it carefully and purge with CO2 for a couple minutes after.

It's water under the bridge at this point, but the key with sours is to consider the overall balance. When adding acidic fruits like some berries and all citrus, you need to back off on IBUs and/or kettle souring. Fruit acids, Lactic Acid from souring, and hop IBUs are all on the same team that counteract residual sweetness. If you have all three in a beer, they all better be minimal if you don't want your face to implode.

I did actually try to take this into account when "designing" the recipe.

It was a malty grain bill, I used a minimal amount of bittering hops, only pitched one packet of Philly Sour (then the US-05 to stop the lactic acid production), and am adding the citrus late so the sweet comes through more than the bitter/acid.

First time with a sour, and really even adding fruit to a beer, so I'm hoping the result matches with my imagination.

But, truth be told, I think it's already going to be too sour for my liking. I burped my CO2 reservoir last night, and the smell that came out was decidedly sour. I'm hoping against hope it doesn't give too much of a pucker.

 

[Beenym88]

Adding fruit to beer really isn’t hard you just need a lot to get the flavor. Wait until very close to the end of fermentation or until it’s over and use no less than 1 pound per gallon if your want real fruit flavor. I just dump frozen fruit right in and it works like a charm. I’ve also bought purées online that are super easy to use but frozen is slightly cheaper and you just run to the grocery store.