New to the group so hello to everyone. Long time follower and this is my first post. Here's the situation, I have 2 spike cf30 unitanks, I'm thinking of sticking a sticking a 4500w ss element where the sampling port is and doing a big all in one biab 130 liter setup. Boil, steep, ferment, and carbonate all in one container without ever moving liquid to another tank except for kegging at the very end. I've only been brewing about a year and was hoping someone could point out the downfalls to a setup like this. 4500w element with pid controller for heat and immersion chiller for cooling. Also have conical heating pad to maintain heat during ferment if need be (brewing in unheated garage at 3c). Looking forward to advice for you brew gods!
One vessel system advice.
- Thread starter Mord
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BIAB is really the simplest beer brewing system, but I don't know if it works with 130 liters. Instead of a bag, you should use a metal strainer and some kind of power-driven lifting and straining system.
Also, I think the 4500W heater power is too weak for 130 liters of wort. I have 2000W for 30 liters, but I would be happier with a little more.
Also, I think the 4500W heater power is too weak for 130 liters of wort. I have 2000W for 30 liters, but I would be happier with a little more.
I don't think the metal strainer will work because of the weird angle the heating element sticks up at. The grain bill is about 55 pounds so I'll be bringing approximately 70 liters up to 150ish. My 5500w element will bring 50 liters to a boil in about 45 minutes in my other toy 
. So basically I'm figuring an hour to get it to 150, stay at 150 for an hour, then bring volume up to 130 liters and bring to a boil from whatever temperature it drops to. I'm guessing about 4-5 hours total. I wonder if 2 separate bags would work?
. So basically I'm figuring an hour to get it to 150, stay at 150 for an hour, then bring volume up to 130 liters and bring to a boil from whatever temperature it drops to. I'm guessing about 4-5 hours total. I wonder if 2 separate bags would work?Two separate bags would work, but it's also twice the work and equipment. Although, I think that 65 liters is too much to lift without a crane. In addition, it is 9000W of mains power. I don't know how it works in Canada. In Europe, they would need three-phase current for that power.
The maximum my brew space is wired for is 30 amp for my welder plug. I think I might just have to try a test run on just water to see if it's possible, and if not I'll have to use propane and a different boiler pot. I was trying to avoid buying another pot as I don't think my 80 liter is big enough.
I am currently brewing a double-strength wort that I dilute with water after cooling and then pitch yeast and that works perfectly. I came up with this idea after I read this Brulosophy test. This saves energy, time, water and the size of the brewing pot, without sacrificing quality.
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That's basically what I've been doing until this crazy idea came into my head. For some reason I never thought of doing it in the conical like that. Then my max boil would be 70-80 liters then add remainder at the end. I wish me and my brain were on the same page a little more often.
DuncB
Well-Known Member
Why not just sparge your grains more to dilute it?
Rather than liquoring back an inefficiently made first runnings.
Rather than liquoring back an inefficiently made first runnings.
Also a great idea. This is why I come to you people! Thanks.
Brewing stronger wort, and then diluting will give you a lauter efficiency hit. Lauter efficiency gets lower as the grain bill weight to pre-boil volume increases. You can compensate by using more grain, if dilution is the way you want to go.
As far as how large a batch you can do with BIAB - take a look here.
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Be sure the gaskets can take the heat.
Was going to switch out to silicone but thanks.
Silicone gaskets/"O" rings are the worst (by an order of magnitude or more) as far as oxygen permeability is concerned, and should be avoided in fermentation and storage vessels.
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Really? I've never thought or heard of that before. I'm coming from the distilling world where it wasn't much of a concern.Silicone gaskets/"O" rings are the worst (by an order of magnitude or more) as far as oxygen permeability is concerned, and should be avoided in fermentation and storage vessels.
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Epdm?
Quick search on the googles suggest epdm gaskets can handle temps from -50F to 300F.
EDPM is about an order of magnitude better than silicone, but still relatively high permeability vs. other polymers.
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Brewing stronger wort, and then diluting will give you a lauter efficiency hit. Lauter efficiency gets lower as the grain bill weight to pre-boil volume increases. You can compensate by using more grain, if dilution is the way you want to go.
As far as how large a batch you can do with BIAB - take a look here.
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Yes, of course it is possible to make a BIAB for such large quantities, but, as we see here, not without a crane and a bag made of strong material.
... and, I'm betting, more power than OP's 30A circuit can deliver.
Brewing stronger wort, and then diluting will give you a lauter efficiency hit. Lauter efficiency gets lower as the grain bill weight to pre-boil volume increases. You can compensate by using more grain, if dilution is the way you want to go.
As far as how large a batch you can do with BIAB - take a look here.
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The BIAB method has no problems with mash tun lautern, and sparge is not commonly used. With larger amounts of grain, I only have a problem with the heavier bag and longer squeezing the bag. As long as there is at least 2.5 times more water than grain (2.5 liters of water per kilogram of grain), there are no problems with efficiency, and I did not feel the reduced bitterness of the hops.
With a 120V power distribution system and a 4500W heater, the calculation says that 37.5A is needed. If 240V is used, less than 19A is needed, which means that a 30A plug would be sufficient.
Glad you're seeing it that way. Sometimes ideas sound good until you start sorting out the details.
I'm impressed that you have been brewing for a short time and have TWO CF30's. I have the CF10 and love it!
During covid a ton of micro breweries started up in my area and now the are slowly closing the doors on them and they're selling of the equipment very cheap. Like silly cheap.
Good deal! Hard to pass up great deals.
30A will readily deliver more than 4500 watts. 5500 easily. But will 4500 (or even 5500) watts boil 100+ liters? That's what I'm doubting.
Seems academic, as OP has decided against the electric conical BIAB. Probably wisely.
Yes you are correct. I'm going with 2 separate boils in an 80 liter pot with a 5500w element. I was just trying to avoid getting a pump and hoses. This while buy once cry once thing is getting expensive lol
Yes, for more than a five gallon batch, you need some kind of pulley system (unless you are a serious weightlifter.) A hoist is nice if you like toys and have the funds. Many of us use pulleys even for 5 gal batches. You don't necessarily need a "crane", just something to hang the pulley from. Ceiling joists work well, as do tall step ladders, deer hanging tripods, engine hoists - there are lots of possibilities.
The bag does not need any special "strong material" the bag for the 145 gal (280+ lb grain bill) is made out of the same material as the smaller bags that Wilser makes. The material is much stronger than it looks.
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I'm just wondering who all the OP is brewing two barrel batches for.
I did not say there was a "problem" with larger grain bills. I said that as the grain weight to pre-boil volume ratio increases, the lauter efficiency decreases. This is due to the fact that more grain retains a larger fraction of the total wort than does less grain (assuming the same grain absorption rate.) The chart below shows what happens to lauter efficiency as the grain weight to pre-boil volume changes, for two different grain absorption rates, and zero to three equal volume batch (or dunk) sparges:
Using the grain weight to pre-boil volume ratio makes this chart batch size independent.
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I did not say there was a "problem" with larger grain bills. I said that as the grain weight to pre-boil volume ratio increases, the lauter efficiency decreases. This is due to the fact that more grain retains a larger fraction of the total wort than does less grain (assuming the same grain absorption rate.) The chart below shows what happens to lauter efficiency as the grain weight to pre-boil volume changes, for two different grain absorption rates, and zero to three equal volume batch (or dunk) sparges:
View attachment 869923
Using the grain weight to pre-boil volume ratio makes this chart batch size independent.
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I've seen that chart before, but my measured OG matches the calculation. I use BrewMate and instead of 23L (6 gallons for 5 gallons of bottled beer) I calculate as if my batch size is 46L plus 8L of water loss (remains in the grain and evaporates during the boil). My mash efficiency is 70%, which is about 5% less than when brewing two batches. For me, an acceptable loss considering the time and energy saved.
DuncB
Well-Known Member
I love this chart would a conversion to metric be easy ?I did not say there was a "problem" with larger grain bills. I said that as the grain weight to pre-boil volume ratio increases, the lauter efficiency decreases. This is due to the fact that more grain retains a larger fraction of the total wort than does less grain (assuming the same grain absorption rate.) The chart below shows what happens to lauter efficiency as the grain weight to pre-boil volume changes, for two different grain absorption rates, and zero to three equal volume batch (or dunk) sparges:
View attachment 869923
Using the grain weight to pre-boil volume ratio makes this chart batch size independent.
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Thanks for the info. I was concerned about the bags weight capability. I have a chain fall to do the heavy lifting. Without using the conical as a kettle the biggest pot I have available is 20 gallons so lifting the bag won't be an issue. I really appreciate the insight on the easley overlooked details that bite you in the butt the day you try to incorporate shenanigans into the real world.Yes, for more than a five gallon batch, you need some kind of pulley system (unless you are a serious weightlifter.) A hoist is nice if you like toys and have the funds. Many of us use pulleys even for 5 gal batches. You don't necessarily need a "crane", just something to hang the pulley from. Ceiling joists work well, as do tall step ladders, deer hanging tripods, engine hoists - there are lots of possibilities.
The bag does not need any special "strong material" the bag for the 145 gal (280+ lb grain bill) is made out of the same material as the smaller bags that Wilser makes. The material is much stronger than it looks.
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2 60 liter kegs per month, one for me and one for a buddy who's footing a good chunk of the equipment bill.
Oh sorry forgot to mention that If not brewing in the unitanks one will be sold. The wife is starting to ask questions.
The chart is primarily for illustrative purposes, as it only applies to a limited set of parameters. My spreadsheet, that was used to create the chart, allows the parameters to be set to your specifics, and works in imperial (gal & lb) or metric (liters & kg.) To use the spreadsheet, download a copy either as an Excel or LibreOffice spreadsheet.
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DuncB
Well-Known Member
@doug293cz
Great I've got the spreadsheet I'll play with that again.
Great I've got the spreadsheet I'll play with that again.
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