OFFICIAL Kate the Great Russian Imperial Stout Clone
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I'm planning to do the PM version of this for experimentation's sake, if nothing else, but as Oldsock pointed out above, I find the directions a bit confusing. Anyone mind giving me a consult here? I've never had the beer itself, so I've tried to clean things up and adjust as best I could.
1. The type of extract (liquid vs. dry) is unspecified, but judging from my calculations, I'm guessing he's using entirely liquid. Anyone disagree?
2. He says to add 9#+2# of extract prior to mashing the grains, which seems unorthodox to me. Is there a reason I would want to add extract to my mash liquid? I'm assuming it should be added after the initial boil starts (after hot break).
3. The total grain bill doesn't include any base malts (unless I missed something). Shouldn't the wheat, if nothing else, be mashed with a bit of 2-row or something to help starch conversion?
4. After the boil, he suggests that you add the extract, this time listing up to 20lbs. That much extract alone would put us over the target (massively), so I'm assuming that he meant basically 20lbs of fermentables (effectively the mash liquor + 11lbs of extract), as that seems to come closer in range. Does this mean that the extract should all be added here (post-boil), or should I add it at the start of the boil as originally stated?
I don't really want to rush things on this one (for obvious reasons), so I figured I'd poll the masses early and often until I'm confident with the recipe. Thanks for any help folks can provide
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1. The type of extract (liquid vs. dry) is unspecified, but judging from my calculations, I'm guessing he's using entirely liquid. Anyone disagree?
2. He says to add 9#+2# of extract prior to mashing the grains, which seems unorthodox to me. Is there a reason I would want to add extract to my mash liquid? I'm assuming it should be added after the initial boil starts (after hot break).
3. The total grain bill doesn't include any base malts (unless I missed something). Shouldn't the wheat, if nothing else, be mashed with a bit of 2-row or something to help starch conversion?
4. After the boil, he suggests that you add the extract, this time listing up to 20lbs. That much extract alone would put us over the target (massively), so I'm assuming that he meant basically 20lbs of fermentables (effectively the mash liquor + 11lbs of extract), as that seems to come closer in range. Does this mean that the extract should all be added here (post-boil), or should I add it at the start of the boil as originally stated?
I don't really want to rush things on this one (for obvious reasons), so I figured I'd poll the masses early and often until I'm confident with the recipe. Thanks for any help folks can provide
.1. I would measure the gravity after steeping (mashing) the grains and add enough (liquid or dry) to get to your target gravity.
2. I don't see a reason to add any extract to the steeping water unless it was diastatic...
3. Wheat has enough enzymatic power to convert itself, but with all the roasted/crystal malts it would be tough. You may want to do a seperate mini-mash with the wheat, flaked barley, and aromatic along with a pound or two of pale malt (then just steep the rest of the grains).
4. I'd probably add the extract towards the end of the boil, especially if you aren't doing a full boil. Or you could split it adding some early and some late.
Hope that helps. I posted some pictures/details from my attempt at this recipe.
2. I don't see a reason to add any extract to the steeping water unless it was diastatic...
3. Wheat has enough enzymatic power to convert itself, but with all the roasted/crystal malts it would be tough. You may want to do a seperate mini-mash with the wheat, flaked barley, and aromatic along with a pound or two of pale malt (then just steep the rest of the grains).
4. I'd probably add the extract towards the end of the boil, especially if you aren't doing a full boil. Or you could split it adding some early and some late.
Hope that helps. I posted some pictures/details from my attempt at this recipe.
Thanks Sock; it would seem your impressions are in line with my own for the most part. Regarding a split mash (or mash some grains, steep the coloring ones), would it matter how much water I use for the steep? I could probably steep in somewhere around 1-2 gallons of water fairly easily, while mashing in the expected 1-2 as well, which I'd think would be plenty. Should I keep the steep water below 170ish to prevent tannic extraction?
Regarding your linked post, I see you racked into a corny with the oak (chips or cubes? Any roast?). Are you planning on removing that and letting it rest a while longer after the oak has imparted its flavor?
Regarding your linked post, I see you racked into a corny with the oak (chips or cubes? Any roast?). Are you planning on removing that and letting it rest a while longer after the oak has imparted its flavor?
user 21663
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I tried reading the previous posts and can't find the answer, but how did you come up with such a simple hop bill from the original hops that Tod provided in his email? Do you expect this will make huge differences over the original?
I would mash with ~1.5 quarts of water per pound of grain. Since you aren’t worried about diluting enzymes you can go even higher with the steeping grains. I’ve read that you can extract tannins by going with much more water, but plenty of people do no-sparge with a very thin mash without issue. Keeping the steep under 170 F is probably a good idea.
I find that the longer I age a beer on oak the more complex flavors I get (rather than a large amount for a short time which imparts a more singular “lumber” flavor). I’ll taste the beer after ~3 months just to make sure it isn’t getting too strong. I may also add a cup of port if I want more of that flavor. No real need to age the beer in secondary once the oak is removed.
If you were trying to copy an IPA then the hop additions would be the most important thing to follow, but for a malt forward beer like this the hops play a relatively minor role in the finished character of the beer. Hop aromatics are the first thing to go as a beer ages, so matching the late boil hops isn't a big deal if you are aging the beer for 6 months or more before drinking. You get a certain character (softer, harsher) from the bitterness depending on the hops you use, but it isn’t a huge factor. If you can get all the hop varieties there is no reason not to follow the hop bill he lays out, but I had hops in the freezer that I wanted to use up.
Good luck.
I find that the longer I age a beer on oak the more complex flavors I get (rather than a large amount for a short time which imparts a more singular “lumber” flavor). I’ll taste the beer after ~3 months just to make sure it isn’t getting too strong. I may also add a cup of port if I want more of that flavor. No real need to age the beer in secondary once the oak is removed.
If you were trying to copy an IPA then the hop additions would be the most important thing to follow, but for a malt forward beer like this the hops play a relatively minor role in the finished character of the beer. Hop aromatics are the first thing to go as a beer ages, so matching the late boil hops isn't a big deal if you are aging the beer for 6 months or more before drinking. You get a certain character (softer, harsher) from the bitterness depending on the hops you use, but it isn’t a huge factor. If you can get all the hop varieties there is no reason not to follow the hop bill he lays out, but I had hops in the freezer that I wanted to use up.
Good luck.
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Ralelen
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What type of efficiency is being reported? I'd love to do this but I'm considering doing a split mash so I don't get a crappy efficiency.
Thanks for the clarification; I'm assuming oak cubes simply because I've heard they're better for long-term oaking anyway. Do you toss them directly into the keg, or keep them contained with a bag of some sort?
Interesting note regarding the hops--I was considering replacing a fair number of them with alternatives I have on hand as well, so it's good to see that I won't be completely screwing myself up. I'll post the final recipe I go with when the time comes.
Interesting note regarding the hops--I was considering replacing a fair number of them with alternatives I have on hand as well, so it's good to see that I won't be completely screwing myself up. I'll post the final recipe I go with when the time comes.
I got 62% system efficiency on my batch, and that was with an extra long boil and some boiled down final runnings. Big beers tend to have lower efficiency, but I've been fighting some issues with my mill (I need to get a set of feeler gauges).
Yeah, I like cubes since they tend to have a better toast and a slower extraction. I toss them right in, although if I was serving from the keg I would have bagged them just to make sure they didn't get stuck on the dip tube.
Yeah, I like cubes since they tend to have a better toast and a slower extraction. I toss them right in, although if I was serving from the keg I would have bagged them just to make sure they didn't get stuck on the dip tube.
I made it to the tasting this year and sampled some of the original Kate the Great on tap. Fantastic stuff! My brother is a huge fan of stouts and wanted to try brewing with me so I think we'll be doing this batch shortly. I took the recipe from the OP and got it entered into BeerTools Pro. I haven't read through this thread entirely yet, but I'll have a look to get tips from others who have tried to make this one.
My brother-in-law and I brewed this about a month ago and racked it to secondary this last Friday. This is our first "big beer" and we were using a new mash tun cooler that could handle this much grain, so we had some things going against us. We ended up with an 1.100 OG, a little low for the recipe, but it fermented all the way down to 1.017. We had put it on a 3rd generation yeast cake and it fermented like CRAZY for a couple of days. I've never tasted Kate the Great but my initial impression of our clone was AMAZING. It had a ton of roast and chocolate flavors. I was a little worried that it had fermented lower than our projection but I thought it tasted great. Now we've got it in secondary aging on port soaked oak cubes for the next couple months. Patience.....
1Mainebrew
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How long should the oak be soaked in port?
1Mainebrew
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How long should I leave it in the keg?
1Mainebrew
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Then how long did you leave the port soaked oak in the secondary?
lewybrewing
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I am going to be brewing this beer on Saturday. Going to do this and a Tasty Double IPA Clone. So it is going to be a BIG day around my house. It is all for the start of the NHC down the street from my house. I will also report back.
Well, Purchased the ingredients for this. Hoping to brew on my bday with it and give it to myself as my xmas present.
I made some minor (lazy) changes.
6 lb Light DME
10 lb Pale Ale Malt 2-Row (Briess) (3.5 SRM) Grain
1 lb Barley, Flaked (1.7 SRM) Grain
1 lb Special B Malt (180.0 SRM) Grain
1 lb White Wheat Malt (2.4 SRM) Grain
1 lb Carafa III (525.0 SRM) Grain
1 lb Aromatic Malt (26.0 SRM) Grain
1 lb Caramel Malt - 40L (Briess) (40.0 SRM) Grain
1 lb Roasted Barley (300.0 SRM) Grain
1 lb Black Malt - 2-Row (Briess) (500.0 SRM) Grain
1 lb Caramel/Crystal Malt -120L (120.0 SRM) Grain
1 lb Chocolate (Briess) (350.0 SRM) Grain
Super excited for this. Will be my biggest brew to date. Not sure what I will do for hops. I'll have to look in the freezer.
I am assuming port is some type of liquor? I'l prob do oak chips with and maybe some coffee beans for secondary.
I made some minor (lazy) changes.
6 lb Light DME
10 lb Pale Ale Malt 2-Row (Briess) (3.5 SRM) Grain
1 lb Barley, Flaked (1.7 SRM) Grain
1 lb Special B Malt (180.0 SRM) Grain
1 lb White Wheat Malt (2.4 SRM) Grain
1 lb Carafa III (525.0 SRM) Grain
1 lb Aromatic Malt (26.0 SRM) Grain
1 lb Caramel Malt - 40L (Briess) (40.0 SRM) Grain
1 lb Roasted Barley (300.0 SRM) Grain
1 lb Black Malt - 2-Row (Briess) (500.0 SRM) Grain
1 lb Caramel/Crystal Malt -120L (120.0 SRM) Grain
1 lb Chocolate (Briess) (350.0 SRM) Grain
Super excited for this. Will be my biggest brew to date. Not sure what I will do for hops. I'll have to look in the freezer.
I am assuming port is some type of liquor? I'l prob do oak chips with and maybe some coffee beans for secondary.
lewybrewing
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I brewed this on Sunday the 12th of June. Everything went good. The grain bill was a little big for my brewing equipment. I ended up adding 2# of sugar the end of the boil to get to 1.100 OG or 25 Brix. The color is black but not to dense, great aroma and smells. I changed the bittering hops but left the aroma hops the same. I also have oak cubes in bourbon soaking at the moment. They will be dropped in the keg after fermentation.
I'll look forward to hearing how this goes; I've got some cubes in bourbon as well earmarked for this recipe.
Port is a fortified red wine. I really can't stand the stuff by itself, it is way to sweet, but I imagine it would go well in the stout because many times a RIS can have some port like qualities.
O, I am now much more excited. I have a HUGE sweet tooth and was trying to figure out a why to sweet this up a bit (I was leaning towards adding some lactose. Maybe, now I won't)
Anyone have a suggestion of a brand/dryness to buy? When it comes to wine, I am a super n00b.
Thanks,
josh
Sdragon980
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Hmmm, Subscribed...
Odds are the port won't add much sweetness to the beer. The reason that port is sweet is that they add brandy to wine before it is done fermenting to raise the alcohol enough to kill the yeast. The small amount of port that goes into the beer will be diluted, with the lower alcohol the yeast will happily ferment the grape sugars.
You can boost the mash temp or use a less attenuative yeast if you want to leave it a bit sweeter. Then taste it when it is ready to bottle, make your decision then whether lactose is worthwhile.
Well brewed this today. Made one minor change only ~4.5-5# of DME. Some reason I was low and came out with 1.080. I didn't drain my bags (biab) as well as I normally do because the where HEAVY!!!!!
21# of grain + 5 gallons of water = my 35qt pot MAXXXXXXED!
My hop schedule went like this
1oz Magnum 75min
1oz Pearle 75min
1oz Fuggle 75min
1oz Centennial 15min
1oz Fuggle 0 min
Now to order up some oak chips and get them soaking in some port. I am pretty excited. This will be a little off the "clone" but I think it will an amazing stout.
Second, I took my grains which I had split in two different bags. Put one bag in a 5 gallon pot with 2 gallons of water and the second 3 gallon pot had 1 gallon of water in it. After Mash combined the two pots. Brought it to the boil, added the remaining 1-1.5# of DME. Added little water after the boil so it finished with 4 gallons. OG was 1.048. Pretty excited about that.
I let my friend who has brewed with me a couple times figure out what hops and the hop schedule on this one. Gave him the list out of How to Brew for descriptions of the hops and showed him a list which has everything I have in the freezer. Well it ended up hopped it to F***, which makes me excited.
4oz Nugget 75min
2oz Columbus 15min
2oz Fuggle 0 min
9 Gallons of beer brewed in one day. Awesome. This makes me want to upgrade to a keggle so I can do constant 10 gallon batches!!
How would I add the lactose at bottling? Boil some water with lactose then mix it into my bottle bucket?
Exactly.
Sweet, and since lactose is a non-fermentable I don't have to worry about bottle bombs (well at least with the lactose)
Learn something new every day. I have only added lactose in the last 10mins of the boil.
Thanks Oldsock!!
Keep in mind that a little bit of lactose really doesn't add a ton of sweetness. It'll take a *lot* of lactose to substantially sweeten a beer of this magnitude. Depending on your desired sweetness, at least.
