Off-flavour in Pilsner - could it be the water?

[seilenos]

1) 21 days for a lager yeast seems awfully short unless you are doing a quick or warm lager method. Even then I wouldn’t be surprised if it needed time to clear. Are you sure it is not just suspended yeast that hasn’t dropped yet?

2) Since you are doing BIABasket, do you have enough space to do a full volume, no sparge? It’s one less thing to deal with when brewing.

3) If you know your water chemistry, use BrunWater to calculate your pH, adjust your additions, and don’t worry about modifying during the mash.

This is not to say never sparge or test mash pH but if you are trying to identify a process problem the easiest thing to do is simplify the process. Streamlining those two processes will not turn an otherwise good beer bad and helps eliminate variables.

 

[hottpeper13]

My fizzy yellow brews are more clear,crisp and have a smooth hop balance when I keep the pH at 5-5.2 and Ca at 75-100 ppm. At 5.6 you start pulling crap out of the hops,but you do get stupid high efficiency.

 

[marc1]

My fizzy yellow brews are more clear,crisp and have a smooth hop balance when I keep the pH at 5-5.2 and Ca at 75-100 ppm. At 5.6 you start pulling crap out of the hops,but you do get stupid high efficiency.

Mash pH or boil pH?

 

[Bobby_M]

If you're adjusting down to 5.6 in the middle of the mash, it probably means two things. One, the mash sat firmly above 5.6 for the first half (tannin extraction). Two, the sparge water is going to drag the pH back up over 5.6.

Get your software of choice to calculate how much acid is needed to get the mash pH to 5.4 and add it to your strike water BEFORE you add the grain. Also add a couple mL of acid to your sparge water.

 

[VikeMan]

Get your software of choice to calculate how much acid is needed to get the mash pH to 5.4 and add it to your strike water BEFORE you add the grain. Also add a couple mL of acid to your sparge water.

Why use software for the mash acid addition and then s.w.a.g. a couple mL of acid for the sparge water? If my software didn't handle sparge water acid additions, I'd find other software. Are there any "modern" models that don't?

 

[Bobby_M]

Why use software for the mash acid addition and then s.w.a.g. a couple mL of acid for the sparge water? If my software didn't handle sparge water acid additions, I'd find other software. Are there any "modern" models that don't?

Sure you can let it calculate but an exact amount isn't really necessary in a quick sparge as described. If one were designing a recipe for a traditional hour long fly sparge, I'd be more inclined to be more exact. Point taken.

 

[passedpawn]

Hi,

so guys I have been still battling with this problem and I thought maybe I finally got it - I have done the exact same beer now 3rd time and the flavour is here and strong.
I used Lallemand lager yeast, recommended temp ( lower end of the suggested temp frame) and kept it there until it reached desired FG of 1.012 and left it to sit on yeast cake so all would be done, like total of 14 days or something, i then close transfered into keg (No oxygen contact) - pressurized and left it for a week to have the weird off taste, but had my brother over to kind of blindly tell me what he feels and smells and his first reaction was grainy/nutty - soo I checked and could pinpoint that this is over sparge/ alkalinity issue?!

1) I do adjust my pH to 5.6ish 10 minutes into the mash, but I dont treat my sparge water!?
2) Brewfather worked out my sparge water volume to be 15liters, mash water volume was 17 liters and grain bill was 3.7kg
3) I have the all in one kettle, so while mashing my pump is recirculating the water all the time, when mash time is up, I raise the basket up and out from the water to run try into the grain basket and start sparging, i literally wash all my 17l through the grain - as I said sparge water doesnt have pH adjusted... as i didnt know any better :|....

Could the volume of water used for sparging be the issue that throws everything off? If I could id take reading from the runnings, but since the basket is heavy and sits below the rim of the kettle I will probably brake something before I get my refractometer in there.
IF this (probably is?) is the issue, then how would you recommend to tackle the issue - how would one do proper sparge with such equipment..
PS! Sparge water tempretature is around 75c so im not sparging too hot, but probably wash everything out of the grain , including bad tanins and whatnot , aslo this would explain perhaps my 85% efficiency

I will get another order of grain and do a real low volume sparge and then just pour in the water to match my boil volume, also will adjust pH

Thanks for sticking around so long for this "WTF am i doing wrong story :|"

How do you clean your kegs?

I have this occasional "soapy" taste that shows up in my beers. Odd thing: If I brew a 10g batch and split it between two fermentors (and kegs), many times only one of them has the off flavor!
So, the problem has nothing to do with the mash - not water, ingredients, hops. It's not the yeast because I dehydrate in water and mix and add to both fermentors from the same solution. I've made notes of the taste when going to the keg and it never has this flavor then.

I'm starting to wonder if a soapy taste is actually residue from a cleaning agent like starsan or oxyclean. Sorry if it seems I'm hijaaking your thread. Just relating a similar problem of my own in hopes it will illuminate a new idea in your head.

 

[eestisiin]

Thoughts:
1. Mash pH changes during the mash. Check it at 10-15 minutes into the mash and record what it shows. Adjust the next batch from that information before you start the mash. pH is important during the conversion period and that may be over or nearly over before you started adjusting.
2. Mathematically, equal volumes of mash water and sparge water are the most efficient for extracting the sugars with a single sparge but your volumes are "close enough".
3. Extracting sugars during the sparge is nearly identical with hot water and with cold water.
4. Extracting tannins is a function of pH (over 6.0) and temperature of the sparge water (over 170F). Control either and you avoid tannin extraction. I can more easily control the water temp so I sparge with tap water, unheated. With the cool water I don't need to worry about what the specific gravity is during the sparge.
5. Water makes up nearly all the beer. If you use "bad water" you can get bad flavors. Try a batch with either bottled water or RO water to which you have added minerals. It that solves the off flavor, you know the cause.

Hey, thanks for the answers!

1. Ill adjust before grains from now on as I have always done it 10-15 into mash
2. So it doesn't seam like too much water to start rinsing out the grains too much to get the spent grain taste?
3. Will keep it in mind as heating the water has always been a real bitch, need to do it in the main house, rather just rinse it with cold water that I have on hand in the garage
4. I will do both the next round just to be sure, because then i can remove that theory alltogether - next step is not to sparge at all or sparge like 1-2liters and add rest in until i meet my boil volume OR the SG im looking for....
5. I started from local spring water, went to bottled water with same results - botted water is also spring water, but it has been cleaned and filtered etc - dont have access to RO water unfortunatelly
All valid points and ill try to get in the bottom of this by playing with the pH! I have had so many batches of the same beer with bad taste now that when im finally able to produce a clean tasting lager it will be the highlight of my brewing days

PS! I just remembered that one batch had less off flavour and this batch was the one where I undershot my SG and it was also a smaller batch, so obv was doing something wrong and using perhaps less water when rinsing so conversion wasnt perfect and so on?

 

[eestisiin]

1) 21 days for a lager yeast seems awfully short unless you are doing a quick or warm lager method. Even then I wouldn’t be surprised if it needed time to clear. Are you sure it is not just suspended yeast that hasn’t dropped yet?

2) Since you are doing BIABasket, do you have enough space to do a full volume, no sparge? It’s one less thing to deal with when brewing.

3) If you know your water chemistry, use BrunWater to calculate your pH, adjust your additions, and don’t worry about modifying during the mash.

This is not to say never sparge or test mash pH but if you are trying to identify a process problem the easiest thing to do is simplify the process. Streamlining those two processes will not turn an otherwise good beer bad and helps eliminate variables.

Hey,

1) Im fermenting under pressure, temp controlled in fermzilla, beer comes out from the keg clear - i mean can see through it clearly, didnt use gelatin or anything, when racking from fermzilla i took 18liters from a 21 litre batch so very little yeast was sucked up, if any...

2) I think I could do it - since im usually doing a 18-19l batch in the corny anyways, i could probably fit everything in one go - that is my next test after I have done one batch with perfect pH

3) Ill try this out when playing with the pH part of my test batch and second (in total fifth test batch LOL gonna be no sparge)

Thanks for your insight

 

[eestisiin]

If you're adjusting down to 5.6 in the middle of the mash, it probably means two things. One, the mash sat firmly above 5.6 for the first half (tannin extraction). Two, the sparge water is going to drag the pH back up over 5.6.

Get your software of choice to calculate how much acid is needed to get the mash pH to 5.4 and add it to your strike water BEFORE you add the grain. Also add a couple mL of acid to your sparge water.

10-15 in on a 60-75 min mash is still early, but I do get it that its important to get the pH down faster - will do it correctly next time - always a learning curve lol

 

[eestisiin]

How do you clean your kegs?

I have this occasional "soapy" taste that shows up in my beers. Odd thing: If I brew a 10g batch and split it between two fermentors (and kegs), many times only one of them has the off flavor!
So, the problem has nothing to do with the mash - not water, ingredients, hops. It's not the yeast because I dehydrate in water and mix and add to both fermentors from the same solution. I've made notes of the taste when going to the keg and it never has this flavor then.

I'm starting to wonder if a soapy taste is actually residue from a cleaning agent like starsan or oxyclean. Sorry if it seems I'm hijaaking your thread. Just relating a similar problem of my own in hopes it will illuminate a new idea in your head.

No no, def not hijacking the thread - only issue is that now im afraid of the next problem lol geez, cant go to test batch #6 lololo, but im willing to go as long as i finally get a clean tasting beer - not an issue with APAs, IPAs, Berliner weisse etc i have done, as they strong on flavour that the mistakes wont show, bt yeah for a summer id like to get a clean tasty refreshing beer ready...

I have used 2 different fermentors in my tests - 1 unpressurised bucket with airlock and 1 fermzilla under pressure - both have had off flavour
For kegs I do have 2 kegs, but I clean them with a oxyclean solution , rinse it until its not slippery anymore and then starsan into it - keep it there for few mins and pump it all out with pressure - so all should be clean right? or maybe its not - damn you , you have planted another issue in my head

Perhaps should clean kegs several days before racking so that they have time to try out or smht? but in the end still would need to rinse with starsan...

 

[McMullan]

I think if you want to make a Pilsner, an authetic lager yeast is where to start. But there's more, in terms of yeast, than just pitching an authentic lager yeast. I've been experimenting with Lallemand's Diamond Lager yeast. I wasn't too impressed with it until I repitched it. It's not an off flavour as such (unlike the kveik 'twang'), the beers just seemed slightly unbalanced for no apparent reason. However, repitching fresh Diamond slurry seems to ferment a nicer beer. Repitching fresh slurry means fermentation starts a lot sooner. In some cases, 2-3 days sooner. The repitched yeast are conditioned to ferment wort, rather than survive an industrial drying process, therefore they're under less stress. Nor is it necessarily a good idea to have wort sitting in an FV for days, waiting for fermentation to start. There are risks of contaminating microbes establishing above a threshold as well as risks of oxidation processes healthy yeast metabolism normally limits. In a characterically clean beer like a lager flaws are easier to notice.

 

[RM-MN]

10-15 in on a 60-75 min mash is still early, but I do get it that its important to get the pH down faster - will do it correctly next time - always a learning curve lol

Depending on how well the grain is milled, your mash period may be 60 to 90 minutes but conversion of starch to sugars may be done or nearly done well before that, perhaps in less than 10 minutes. That's why I suggested taking the pH at the usual time but not trying to adjust that batch, rather use that data to adjust the next batch before the mash starts.

 

[eestisiin]

Depending on how well the grain is milled, your mash period may be 60 to 90 minutes but conversion of starch to sugars may be done or nearly done well before that, perhaps in less than 10 minutes. That's why I suggested taking the pH at the usual time but not trying to adjust that batch, rather use that data to adjust the next batch before the mash starts.

Okay, I remember when I took the reading on this batch, it was around 6.2pH at 10min in at the mash temp of 67c, so yeah if it should be ideally below 5.4 then im FAR FAR off and this could probably screw me over. I already worked my store bought spring water into the brewfather and see the amount of 80% lactic acid I should add with the current grain bill

I now need to order my grains and yeast again - idk why but where I live we are out of saflager 34/70 for months now - grrrr....

PS! Here is the mash i used for the beer I use as "baseline"
60min@65c
15min@70c
10min@75c

Malts 3.72kg
Avangard Pilsner Malt 1.95kg
Simpsons Pale Ale Malt Extra - 1.59kg
Ireks Vienna Malt - 0.18kg

 

[Dland]

I now need to order my grains and yeast again - idk why but where I live we are out of saflager 34/70 for months now - grrrr....

Safelager S-189 works well for pilsners, if that is available. In some ways it is superior to 34/70 if you can keep primary fermentation temp down.

As for malt choice, 100% Weyerman or Dinglemans pilsner might be a good starting point. The higher end malts have plenty of flavor on their own.

 

[eestisiin]

Safelager S-189 works well for pilsners, if that is available. In some ways it is superior to 34/70 if you can keep primary fermentation temp down.

As for malt choice, 100% Weyerman or Dinglemans pilsner might be a good starting point. The higher end malts have plenty of flavor on their own.

Fresh out of Weyerman , but since I wanna keep the test for now clean - i wont substitute it

 

[hottpeper13]

I check pH at 10 min into mash and record. If it's not where I want it I change on the next brew. I don't use a program but a residual alkalinity work sheet from a Siebel course I took. If you know the RA,you can nail your pH. I always use RO water and after years of figuring it out with math,i can look at a grain bill and get within .2 of what I want. I have 5 recipes I do over and over and have those nailed down.
Pilsner malt mashed with RO or distilled will get a pH of 5.8 , so if your water has any buffering at all you will need to add an acid. I use acidulated malt.

 

[eestisiin]

Hey guys, thanks for all the help!

I just had a glass of my failed brew and I just had a glass of Pilsner Urquell before it and it has similar taste - but mine is more off-flavour/putting. And I think i read somewhere that some of the oversparge/pH cause off flavour (grainy/husky) that is welcome in some czech pils or am i remembering wrong?

Im just wondering if this gets me closer to you guys figuring out what is wrong with my beer

 

[VikeMan]

I just had a glass of my failed brew and I just had a glass of Pilsner Urquell before it and it has similar taste - but mine is more off-flavour/putting. And I think i read somewhere that some of the oversparge/pH cause off flavour (grainy/husky) that is welcome in some czech pils or am i remembering wrong?

The only off-flavor that's (sort of) welcome in a Czech Pils is Diacetyl; a buttery or sometimes caramely aroma/flavor. (Also, I've never though that Urquell tastes husk-y or has any issue that might be associated with pH.)

 

[eestisiin]

Hey, might be how the taste felt in the moment, I said similar taste not same and as I said mine was more off putting, but yeah you are right that diacetyl is the buttery flavour for Czech Pils

I don't see it being diacetyl - but just to be sure ill explain my fermentation just in case - for example last beer was at 14c for 12 days or so and at 17-18c for 2 days, why I kept it so short was due to the beer being under pressure as I wasnt too worried about the diacetyl

But if one could direct me to a better plan for fermentation, that be great - I have the opportunity to temp control and perhaps the error is mix and match somehow - fact is that my water chemistry is off and I will adjust it more on point from now on


..... anyways

https://learn.kegerator.com/off-flavors-in-beer/
Here it says regard the grainy/husky

• Approx. Flavor Threshold:​

  1-20 µg/l

• Importance:​

  Usually considered an off flavor, but certain styles, such as malt-forward lagers, may have perceptible low levels.

• Effect of Aging:​

  Tends to mellow with age.

• Caused By:​

  Most often caused by the isobutyraldehyde in malt, but other aldehydes can supply the grainy character. Higher levels of these compounds are found in freshly made malt which has not gone through an appropriate rest phase before use. This character can emerge due to malts being to finely crushed, mashing for too long a time, sparging with water at too hot a temperature, or oversparging.

How To Avoid/Control:​

• Ensure you don’t over crush your grain.
• If making your own malt, give it 2-8 weeks of rest before use.
• Don’t mash for more than 2 hours.
• Keep your sparge below 168°F and don’t collect wort below around 1.008 specific gravity.
• Cold conditioning a beer can help get rid of some of its graininess.

How To Practice:​

This is pretty recognizable to everyone. If you homebrew, you can brew a small batch of beer, purposely disregarding any of the avoidance steps above to get varying intensities of this grainy character.
Also, you can make a tea of over-crushed malt in boiling water. Once it has cooled, dose the basic practice setup with measured doses, compare with the control until you can perceive and identify the off-flavor. Don’t forget to write down how your perceptions change as the flavor gets more intense.
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