Off-flavors

[catfishunter]

Hey whats up? I'm fairly new at homebrewing. I've probably done ten batches, all extract, and I've noticed they always seem to have an off flavor I cannot figure out. Its almost like a slightly sour/stale flavor but very miniscule, almost like a cheap beer taste. You almost have to be looking for it, but I always notice it. Some batches it's extremely faint and other, such as multiple ipa's I've done, it's pretty pronounced. I'm very careful with sanitation and do the best with temperature control I possibly can. Any suggestions? Could it be the extract and should I attempt all-grain? I have read some articles about DMS and have realized I have left the lid on my pot while brewing. Could that be the issue? Thanks.

 

[C-Rider]

Have you removed the valve from the bottling bucket when you clean and give it a good cleaning and sanitizing?

 

[Captain Damage]

If you're doing extract brewing then DMS isn't an issue. You can keep the lid on your pot if you want. If you're brewing all-grain then you should leave the kettle uncovered. Pilsner base malts are said to require a longer boil to blow off the DMS, so try a 90 minute boil.

+1 to C-Rider's advice, but I'd add that in addition to removing the spigot, you should disassemble it and clean it and sanitize it. I had a couple of contaminated batches before I learned to do this. Push the spout against a table or counter to pop it out of the housing.

How often are you checking your gravity? Each time you open your fermenter you're allowing oxygen in and the possibility of contamination. There is really no need to check your gravity until you're pretty sure fermentation is done. While the conventional wisdom says to check your gravity often until you get three consecutive identical readings, many of us are now practicing a long-primary technique which requires only one gravity reading. Basically, I'll leave my beer in the primary for three weeks (some brewers say four weeks) undisturbed and check the gravity (once) just before I bottle.

 

[drainbamage]

Do you use liquid or dry malt extract? LME has a shorter shelf life than DME, and stale LME could be affecting your flavor.

If you've been using LME, try switching to DME and see if the off-flavor goes away.

 

[cluckk]

What water are you using? When diagnosing something common to all of your batches look at those things that are common to all of them--water is the first thing that comes to mind, especially since you say it is more pronounced in an IPA than in other styles.

 

[duboman]

http://www.beerjudgeschool.com/uploads/Beer_Characteristics_Flash_Cards.pdf

Look through this, it should help you out

 

[catfishunter]

Thanks for the responses. When I use my bottling bucket I always take the valve apart, clean and sanitize it. I just bought a kegging system so I didn't use the bucket this last time and I still noticed it. I never check the gravity until I feel its ready to bottle/keg. I usually give it a good three weeks before I consider opening the lid, since I'm very concerned about sanitation. As far as water goes I've just been using regular tap water. My water is pretty good as far as chlorine after taste although I do have a softner. Do you think it could be my water?

 

[catfishunter]

And I've been using DME.

 

[BigFloyd]

I'm surprised that nobody has yet asked you about yeast and fermentation. Issues there are the most common causes of off-flavors in beer.

-What yeast are you using?

-If you use liquid do you make a starter?

-What are your pitch and ferment temps?

 

[catfishunter]

I've been using just regular dry yeast. I never really used the liquid yeast before. I always make sure I pitch my yeast below 80, but usually I try to get it to around 70.For ales I always keep the temp around 70 give or take a few degrees.

 

[Captain Damage]

As far as water goes I've just been using regular tap water. My water is pretty good as far as chlorine after taste although I do have a softner. Do you think it could be my water?

Don't softeners add salts to the water? Couldn't that could be adding off flavors? Many municipalities now use chloramine instead of chlorine. It doesn't smell strong and won't come out with boiling. You can remove it by treatment with Campden tablets. Or try a batch made with distilled or reverse-osmosis (RO) water. (D/RO water is okay for extract brewing)

 

[BigFloyd]

I've been using just regular dry yeast. I never really used the liquid yeast before. I always make sure I pitch my yeast below 80, but usually I try to get it to around 70.For ales I always keep the temp around 70 give or take a few degrees.

I'm afraid that your pitch/ferment temps are a touch too high. If at all possible, try doing a batch where you get your wort down into the low 60's before pitching and take steps to keep it in the mid-60's (beer temp, not air) for at least the first 4-5 days. I expect that you will see a nice improvement.

When you say "regular dry yeast", do you mean US-05, Nottingham or something else? If you let Nottingham get above 68*F (measured on the fermenter), it can produce some noticeable off-flavors. US-05 will do the same, but it takes a bit higher temps before happening.

 

[catfishunter]

US-05 is what I've been using. What do you think would be the best way to keep the beer in the mid 60's? That seems to be a tough temp since my fridge is to cold and my basement is to warm.

 

[Captain Damage]

To keep my fermentation temps down I have my fermenters sit in large plastic trays (try Walmart - one of the trays was sold as a cat litter tray.) and put ice in it. I monitor the stick-on thermometer twice a day to make an educated guess of whether to add more ice. While you don't have precise control of the specific temperature, it's a surprisingly simple way to keep your ferm temps in the "safe zone."

 

[Captain Damage]

Forgot to add: the critical time frame for keeping the temperature down is from pitch to just the first two days or so of active fermentation.

 

[RCCOLA]

sour/stale flavor...I do have a softner.

Ding, Ding, Ding!!! We have a winner. If your softener uses sodium for ion exchange then that is your problem. Sodium should be below 70 ppm for beer--I want none in my light lagers, but am comfortable with 35 ppm.

Softened water reports typically read ~300+ ppm. Some extracts already have high levels of sodium. I think Denny or M Brungard posted about Breiss having excess sodium in it. It's possible you have 400+ ppm of sodium in your beer.

From Bru'n water:

Sodium – The sour, salty taste of sodium accentuates beer's flavor when present at modest concentration. It is poisonous to yeast and harsh tasting when at excessive concentrations. It accentuates flavor when used with chloride and imparts roundness to the beer flavor. The preferred sodium concentration range is 0 to 150 ppm, but the upper limit should be reduced in water with high sulfate concentration to avoid harshness. A practical maximum concentration of 100 ppm is recommended for brewing, but brewers should recognize that all waters from the historic world brewing centers have less than 60 ppm sodium. Keeping sodium concentration below 60 ppm is highly recommended.

 

[ballsy]

If you're doing extract brewing then DMS isn't an issue. You can keep the lid on your pot if you want. If you're brewing all-grain then you should leave the kettle uncovered. Pilsner base malts are said to require a longer boil to blow off the DMS, so try a 90 minute boil.

+1 to C-Rider's advice, but I'd add that in addition to removing the spigot, you should disassemble it and clean it and sanitize it. I had a couple of contaminated batches before I learned to do this. Push the spout against a table or counter to pop it out of the housing.

How often are you checking your gravity? Each time you open your fermenter you're allowing oxygen in and the possibility of contamination. There is really no need to check your gravity until you're pretty sure fermentation is done. While the conventional wisdom says to check your gravity often until you get three consecutive identical readings, many of us are now practicing a long-primary technique which requires only one gravity reading. Basically, I'll leave my beer in the primary for three weeks (some brewers say four weeks) undisturbed and check the gravity (once) just before I bottle.

I got in trouble using this technique. Checked FG after 4.5 wks as I was prepping to bottle and was few points off but had already committed. Will check PRIOR to committing from now on!!

 

[ballsy]

Ding, Ding, Ding!!! We have a winner. If your softener uses sodium for ion exchange then that is your problem. Sodium should be below 70 ppm for beer--I want none in my light lagers, but am comfortable with 35 ppm.

Softened water reports typically read ~300+ ppm. Some extracts already have high levels of sodium. I think Denny or M Brungard posted about Breiss having excess sodium in it. It's possible you have 400+ ppm of sodium in your beer.

From Bru'n water:

Sodium – The sour, salty taste of sodium accentuates beer's flavor when present at modest concentration. It is poisonous to yeast and harsh tasting when at excessive concentrations. It accentuates flavor when used with chloride and imparts roundness to the beer flavor. The preferred sodium concentration range is 0 to 150 ppm, but the upper limit should be reduced in water with high sulfate concentration to avoid harshness. A practical maximum concentration of 100 ppm is recommended for brewing, but brewers should recognize that all waters from the historic world brewing centers have less than 60 ppm sodium. Keeping sodium concentration below 60 ppm is highly recommended.

Thats awesome info RCCOLA. Thx! My new neighbor has been bragging about his filter system with softener and begging me to use his water (obviously for some expected kickback...). We have really good town water here and my batches have no off flavors that I have noticed so I've told him he needs to have it tested prior to me using it....you just verified my worries!!

 

[catfishunter]

Ok. thanks a lot. i'll try using bottled water and see if it fixes the problem.

 

[cluckk]

I use my tap water to brew. But I also have a softener, so I pull my water from an outside faucet that isn't softened. I use an activated charcoal filter to remove chlorine. I also dilute with RO water and add kettle salts depending on style. I calculate all this with the Bru'n Water spread sheet.

That would be a lot to do for extract batches, though. I'd recommend simply getting RO to brew with for now. You can also look in your local grocery store for other bottled waters. Mine sells spring water from another area. The bottles tell how it's been treated and the source of the water.

I agree with making sure your ferment temps are low enough as well. It is very hard here in South Texas to keep them down so I use a large container (bought at Walmart) that I can fit two carboys inside. I fill the containers with water up to around the level of the beer and then float frozen jugs of water in the containers to pull down temps.