So I've been brewing British ales off and on for the past year. Throughout, I've had some issues with off-flavors. I can't for the life of me sort out what it is, nor can I put my finger on what the flavor is. It's not specifically 'off', it's just a slightly ?flat? flavor in the fermenting wort and in the finished beer. I've posted elsewhere when this happened before and people suggested fermentation temps being too high, but the past 2 times have been between 16-20C, so that's ruled out. The only other constant has been S-04 yeast, but I'm not clear on what specifically is wrong or not here. I've got an English IPA in the primary now, and it has the same off-flavor. If I let it sit in the glass for a while, some of that seems to gas off, making me wonder whether it's perhaps relate to the yeast? Is there any way I can off-gas the whole batch or does anyone have any idea what might be leading to this and how I might prevent it in the future? FWIW, this beer is Maris Otter/Caraamber/Wheat/Biscuit with Challenger/EKG, mashed at 65.5C for 75 mins.
Off-flavors with S-04/English ales
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JONNYROTTEN
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I use 04 a lot and find it has a mind of its own.
I have a split batch I'm drinking now. One fermenter had a normal smell (fresh bread) while fermenting the other was a sulfur smell mixed with nasty dirty diaper. It pretty much disappeared but the clean batch was better. I wouldn't rule out the 04 yeast
I have a split batch I'm drinking now. One fermenter had a normal smell (fresh bread) while fermenting the other was a sulfur smell mixed with nasty dirty diaper. It pretty much disappeared but the clean batch was better. I wouldn't rule out the 04 yeast
Brewing with tap water? Maybe traces of chlorine?
Yes brewing with tap water, but I've made probably 20 different beers in the past year-the only ones that seem to ever get this off-flavor are English ales/bitters, which are (I think exclusively) made with S04, though also Biscuit malt, and maybe the same biscuit malt I bought 2 years ago-is there a chance the malt's gone off?
3 big things that I have noticed with my english style beers, when brewing 5 years ago and now.
1. Fermentation temps for particular english style yeasts need to be maintained. That can be said about a lot of yeasts, but I've found you have to very honest with temp control.
2. Water chemistry/water profile. I've brewed primarily with tap water for the last 5 years. Only over the last 12 months have I played with water chemistry. Knowing where you're starting will guide you better through what kind or if your water needs salt additions.
3. Ensuring that your process is as refined as you would like it. How careful are you with mash temps, water volume, pH, etc??? All contribute in small (or large) ways that inherently can alter the taste and flavor of a beer.
1. Fermentation temps for particular english style yeasts need to be maintained. That can be said about a lot of yeasts, but I've found you have to very honest with temp control.
2. Water chemistry/water profile. I've brewed primarily with tap water for the last 5 years. Only over the last 12 months have I played with water chemistry. Knowing where you're starting will guide you better through what kind or if your water needs salt additions.
3. Ensuring that your process is as refined as you would like it. How careful are you with mash temps, water volume, pH, etc??? All contribute in small (or large) ways that inherently can alter the taste and flavor of a beer.
To be fair I'm fairly lax on all of the above. Being winter, my indoor temp is a fairly constant 20C thanks to my heating, but I keep these in an unheated (interior) closet which tends to keep a fairly constant 18C except when I open the door, which I do a lot. So I don't have a wide fluctuation, but it is probably going between 18-20C. I have never tested my water and just never worried about it, but obviously that could be a factor-I just figured it it didn't affect anything else it wouldn't affect this. And my mash temps are approximate and pH has never been tested. It's a rough setup which has worked 90% of the time for me. I had some early successes with British ales (in winter, not in that closet) so I guess I just got lucky?
On another note, how much of a different flavor profile would US05 end up giving British ales? I have had bang-on consistent results from 18-24C with S05 and would love to use it more instead, but also figure it'll be too clean for a British ale...
On another note, how much of a different flavor profile would US05 end up giving British ales? I have had bang-on consistent results from 18-24C with S05 and would love to use it more instead, but also figure it'll be too clean for a British ale...
I find S04 weirdly flavored at above 17C, so I'm willing to bet that is the flavor you're picking up.
You could try a different strain (not S05, which is definitely not an English strain and gets "peachy" at higher temperatures) or try doing a bin or cooler with a water bath around the fermenter and change out frozen water bottles as needed to keep it cooler.
You could try a different strain (not S05, which is definitely not an English strain and gets "peachy" at higher temperatures) or try doing a bin or cooler with a water bath around the fermenter and change out frozen water bottles as needed to keep it cooler.
JONNYROTTEN
Well-Known Member
I've never experienced it but I thought the peach flavor came from fermenting on the lower end of the temp scale
I've never had any issues with S05 and off-flavors, but admittedly I tend to use S05 for hop-forward IPAs, so I guess it's easier to hide behind those? As it gets cooler this winter I guess I'll give it another shot when that closet gets down around 15C and just be more diligent at keeping the door shut.
Is my suspicion that it's just something that needs to be off-gassed a possibility? If so, is there some logic to racking and agitating at all? Or does that raise the risk of oxygenation/contamination too much?
Is my suspicion that it's just something that needs to be off-gassed a possibility? If so, is there some logic to racking and agitating at all? Or does that raise the risk of oxygenation/contamination too much?
The flavor is an ester- it won't offgas.
Northern_Brewer
British - apparently some US company stole my name
It's hard to make much progress with this without either identifying the off-flavour or correlating it more closely with an ingredient or process.
Do you have someone you could show it to, who might be able to identify it - LHBS, club etc?
I must admit, my first thought for "flatness" was stale ingredients.
I'd also suggest that you might be overcomplicating your recipe a little. How about doing a straight 100% Otter golden ale, and then split it and ferment it with S-04 versus a different yeast - ideally something classic like 1968 but if all you've got access to is the Fermentis yeasts then K-97 would do.
Fading with time in the glass may not be off-gassing, it could just be oxidation. How long are you conditioning the beer for?
bierhaus15
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I would bet the S-04 is the culprit. I absolutely loath that yeast, but others don't seem to mind its flavor.
It is a variation of the Whitbread B strain, which is a very high lactic acid producing yeast. I find the liquid version more tolerable, but the dry strain for my tastes produces a tangy-estery flavor that can cover up a lot of the malt/hops and give a 'singular' beer flavor.
It is a variation of the Whitbread B strain, which is a very high lactic acid producing yeast. I find the liquid version more tolerable, but the dry strain for my tastes produces a tangy-estery flavor that can cover up a lot of the malt/hops and give a 'singular' beer flavor.
I cant stand s-04 or nottingham i must be sensitive to their esters because i get a weird tartness on my palate
My advice in the cooler winter months when ambient temps hit the low 60s is to give s-23 a shot, ive used it for hoppy and for malty beers and have enjoyed them
My advice in the cooler winter months when ambient temps hit the low 60s is to give s-23 a shot, ive used it for hoppy and for malty beers and have enjoyed them
Perhaps I'm just not a fan of S-04, then. I could swear I brewed a couple beers initially which came out fine with it (but again, it may just have been fermentation <17C, which may have suppressed some of those esters). Unfortunately, however, I'm in Central Europe, so I'm pretty much limited to SafAle, Mangrove Jack, Gozdawa (polish dry yeast) or Fermentum Mobile's Heathery Heights (http://www.thehomebrewforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=68898). Any specific suggestions on a replacement yeast knowing I want British Ale esters, just apparently not the ones S04 produces?
I was pretty happy with the mangrove jack strain, brewed it once in an experiment against the s04 with the exact same Wort (Stout), did prefer it slightly. Little different character, try it!
Edit: I just saw that the one I meant, 07, has been discontinued...
But I read that 42 should be a replacement for it.
Could I get a source on yeast producing lactic acid? As far as I know, only GMO yeast can produce lactic acid, they can not do so naturally.
Silver_Is_Money
Larry Sayre, Developer of 'Mash Made Easy'
This is correct. Saccharomyces cerevisiae do not naturally produce lactic acid.
FermentedCulture
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Usually the sources from this are from a user called saccharomyces or yeastwhisperer on another forum who uses this as the source:
https://catalogue.ncyc.co.uk/saccharomyces-cerevisiae-1026
strain info: high lactic.
Although this is a well researched strain I cannot find much on the brewing characteristics of it - I did find one entry saying it's not GMO though. Looking at the VTT collection entry for this yeast, it says this yeast is a high acetaldehyde producer. Whether or not this stays in the beer to produce the tart flavour I don't know. This also seems slightly counter to what the results here show (unless I'm misinterpreting it - I probably am). http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/j.2050-0416.1974.tb06794.x/epdf
https://catalogue.ncyc.co.uk/saccharomyces-cerevisiae-1026
strain info: high lactic.
Although this is a well researched strain I cannot find much on the brewing characteristics of it - I did find one entry saying it's not GMO though. Looking at the VTT collection entry for this yeast, it says this yeast is a high acetaldehyde producer. Whether or not this stays in the beer to produce the tart flavour I don't know. This also seems slightly counter to what the results here show (unless I'm misinterpreting it - I probably am). http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/j.2050-0416.1974.tb06794.x/epdf
bierhaus15
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Curious where this info comes from, as I know of more than one yeast bank that sells lactic acid producing sacc strains for beer production.
Besides the NCYC info, there is also an old IBD article that talked about whitbread yeast and lactic production, in context of tower fermentation.
Silver_Is_Money
Larry Sayre, Developer of 'Mash Made Easy'
http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1080/02648725.2010.10648152
https://www.researchgate.net/public...he_monocarboxylate_transporters_Jen1_and_Ady2
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1567-1364.2009.00537.x/full
It appears that saccharomyces cerevisiae can either produce a bunch of ethanol and a wee dribble of lactic acid or a bunch of lactic acid and a wee dribble of ethanol. But they must be genetically modified in order to produce a bunch of lactic acid.
FermentedCulture
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I'm trying to find some of the articles. I came across a section in a book saying that tower fermenters were prone to lactic bacteria thus needing pasteurisation, source material:
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/j.2050-0416.1969.tb03211.x/pdf
That source also mentioned the yeast had a ph of around 3.8.
The same book says typical beer (not including belgian lambics) can have as much as 300mg/l of lactic acid in it.
Source: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/j.2050-0416.1974.tb06797.x/epdf
If you note, page 3 shows 1026 with trace acetic and the highest lactic content - which aligns with the ncyc entry.
I found this entry on google books but can't find the source material, I might write a post about this so maybe I'll pay for the entry if I can't find it for free.
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=KUYeAQAAIAAJ&q=Tower+fermentation+whitbread
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/j.2050-0416.1969.tb03211.x/pdf
That source also mentioned the yeast had a ph of around 3.8.
The same book says typical beer (not including belgian lambics) can have as much as 300mg/l of lactic acid in it.
Source: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/j.2050-0416.1974.tb06797.x/epdf
If you note, page 3 shows 1026 with trace acetic and the highest lactic content - which aligns with the ncyc entry.
I found this entry on google books but can't find the source material, I might write a post about this so maybe I'll pay for the entry if I can't find it for free.
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=KUYeAQAAIAAJ&q=Tower+fermentation+whitbread
imasickboy
Drinkasaurus extraordinarius
Be crazy careful with fermentation temps with 42, because too warm will give you straight up banana beer.
Organic acids are what are produced that are dropping the pH levels, as has been stated before, brewers yeast do not produce lactic acid unless they are genetically modified.
Not for the sake of argument, but for my own interest, could you please tell me of a yeast bank that sells these lactic acid producing sacc's? I'm damn near positive it is a blend, and there will be some lacto bugs in there.
I'm not arguing at all, but I'm a fermentation sciences major presently, and would love for the chance to learn something more to bring to my professors.
Not for the sake of argument, but for my own interest, could you please tell me of a yeast bank that sells these lactic acid producing sacc's? I'm damn near positive it is a blend, and there will be some lacto bugs in there.
I'm not arguing at all, but I'm a fermentation sciences major presently, and would love for the chance to learn something more to bring to my professors.
JONNYROTTEN
Well-Known Member
I've been looking to make a banana beer. Would this be a good choice? Any recipe advice. All I know is make a hefe and ferment warm?
imasickboy
Drinkasaurus extraordinarius
I'ts not a traditional hefe yeast. But it will give you tons of banana if fermented warm. I made a barleywine with it, and temp got out of hand. It's an 11% banana strong ale. It's terrible. But it will give you what you want.
JONNYROTTEN
Well-Known Member
Sounds encouraging LOL...I'll look into the yeast a little further
I was thinking of making a banana Stout. Chocolate and banana plus some crystal caramel... Sounds yummy to me! I am still hunting for a good yeast for this. Let me know how your experiment turns out!
Northern_Brewer
British - apparently some US company stole my name
Don't know if you ever had the Siren banana beer, it was amazing - they go into some detail here:
http://www.sirencraftbrew.com/blacklight-banana-collaboration-with-garage-project/
http://www.sirencraftbrew.com/blacklight-banana-collaboration-with-garage-project/
Wow, and I thought I would have crazy ideas....
That sounds awesome! Although I did not think about putting real banana into the beer.. I thought more in the direction of the Stout fermented with a hefeweizen yeast idea .
That sounds awesome! Although I did not think about putting real banana into the beer.. I thought more in the direction of the Stout fermented with a hefeweizen yeast idea .
Northern_Brewer
British - apparently some US company stole my name
Yep, if you're not barrel-ageing green coffeebeans and then hand-roasting them for your beer, you're not really making enough of an effort!
Just imagine being the underling that was presented with 100kg of bananas to peel and blowtorch?
It was worth the effort though, it was phenomenal beer. One thing that might be worth noting is that they dialled back the hefe yeast, and mixed it with a Conan, which echos some of the thoughts in these parts about blending yeasts.
Just imagine being the underling that was presented with 100kg of bananas to peel and blowtorch?
It was worth the effort though, it was phenomenal beer. One thing that might be worth noting is that they dialled back the hefe yeast, and mixed it with a Conan, which echos some of the thoughts in these parts about blending yeasts.
Well this ended up a bit off-topic, but interesting all the same. To bring it round, a bit, I just finished dry-hopping my English IPA with S04 and give it a taste-the best way I have of describing the off-flavors is 'sharp' and almost metallic. I seriously think the beer is completely ruined-I even left a cup to degas/oxidize and while it got slightly better, I think it's not going to be drinkable. Is the general verdict this is probably S04 at too-high temps? Should I toss my biscuit grain just to be certain? I don't have much, so I probably will anyway, but I guess the question is whether it's worth ditching S04 entirely in the future...
I had 04 at pretty high ranges and it just got fruity. I would not blame the yeast for what you are describing, it has to be something else. Oxidation, infection, chlorine, the old biscuit malt... who knows... But I'd bet that it wasn't the yeast's fault.
If it's not the yeast then the only other thing it could be is the biscuit malt-every single other thing in my setup/recipe has been used on another beer with no ill-effects, but every single English ale I've made in the past year has had a similar off-flavor with varying intensity. There was only 175g of biscuit in here, which seems tiny to cause this off-flavoring, and I tried some and it seemed a bit stale (soft vs crunchy) but not bad, but if we aren't willing to blame the yeast that's the only other thing I can imagine it is.
Do other people perceive the same off flavour in your beer?
augiedoggy
Well-Known Member
I dont believe thats s-04 specific... I just had an octoberfest come out with that same off flavor Which in my case I believed to be caused by the fact that my temp controller malfunctioned and took the wort into the high 30s a day after pitching stalling fermentation and stressing the yeast.
Yes, other people do, as well, but I don't have any other brewers to test with. Maybe I'll take a sample down to MLHBS and see what they say...
Strange... I have seriously no idea. Maybe something is oxidised?
If anything, the only thing it stands to be is that biscuit malt, which I've kept in a sealed container, bu admittedly probably for a year. I'll bring it round MLHBS and see what they thing, and toss that malt in the process.
I still really think it's the s04 yeast- that's one of the reasons I no longer use it.
