Off-flavors with S-04/English ales

[Northern_Brewer]

Yep, if you're not barrel-ageing green coffeebeans and then hand-roasting them for your beer, you're not really making enough of an effort!

Just imagine being the underling that was presented with 100kg of bananas to peel and blowtorch?

It was worth the effort though, it was phenomenal beer. One thing that might be worth noting is that they dialled back the hefe yeast, and mixed it with a Conan, which echos some of the thoughts in these parts about blending yeasts.

 

[rmeskill]

Well this ended up a bit off-topic, but interesting all the same. To bring it round, a bit, I just finished dry-hopping my English IPA with S04 and give it a taste-the best way I have of describing the off-flavors is 'sharp' and almost metallic. I seriously think the beer is completely ruined-I even left a cup to degas/oxidize and while it got slightly better, I think it's not going to be drinkable. Is the general verdict this is probably S04 at too-high temps? Should I toss my biscuit grain just to be certain? I don't have much, so I probably will anyway, but I guess the question is whether it's worth ditching S04 entirely in the future...

 

[Miraculix]

Well this ended up a bit off-topic, but interesting all the same. To bring it round, a bit, I just finished dry-hopping my English IPA with S04 and give it a taste-the best way I have of describing the off-flavors is 'sharp' and almost metallic. I seriously think the beer is completely ruined-I even left a cup to degas/oxidize and while it got slightly better, I think it's not going to be drinkable. Is the general verdict this is probably S04 at too-high temps? Should I toss my biscuit grain just to be certain? I don't have much, so I probably will anyway, but I guess the question is whether it's worth ditching S04 entirely in the future...

I had 04 at pretty high ranges and it just got fruity. I would not blame the yeast for what you are describing, it has to be something else. Oxidation, infection, chlorine, the old biscuit malt... who knows... But I'd bet that it wasn't the yeast's fault.

 

[rmeskill]

If it's not the yeast then the only other thing it could be is the biscuit malt-every single other thing in my setup/recipe has been used on another beer with no ill-effects, but every single English ale I've made in the past year has had a similar off-flavor with varying intensity. There was only 175g of biscuit in here, which seems tiny to cause this off-flavoring, and I tried some and it seemed a bit stale (soft vs crunchy) but not bad, but if we aren't willing to blame the yeast that's the only other thing I can imagine it is.

 

[Miraculix]

Do other people perceive the same off flavour in your beer?

 

[augiedoggy]

Well this ended up a bit off-topic, but interesting all the same. To bring it round, a bit, I just finished dry-hopping my English IPA with S04 and give it a taste-the best way I have of describing the off-flavors is 'sharp' and almost metallic. I seriously think the beer is completely ruined-I even left a cup to degas/oxidize and while it got slightly better, I think it's not going to be drinkable. Is the general verdict this is probably S04 at too-high temps? Should I toss my biscuit grain just to be certain? I don't have much, so I probably will anyway, but I guess the question is whether it's worth ditching S04 entirely in the future...

I dont believe thats s-04 specific... I just had an octoberfest come out with that same off flavor Which in my case I believed to be caused by the fact that my temp controller malfunctioned and took the wort into the high 30s a day after pitching stalling fermentation and stressing the yeast.

 

[rmeskill]

Do other people perceive the same off flavour in your beer?

Yes, other people do, as well, but I don't have any other brewers to test with. Maybe I'll take a sample down to MLHBS and see what they say...

 

[Miraculix]

Strange... I have seriously no idea. Maybe something is oxidised?

 

[rmeskill]

If anything, the only thing it stands to be is that biscuit malt, which I've kept in a sealed container, bu admittedly probably for a year. I'll bring it round MLHBS and see what they thing, and toss that malt in the process.

 

[Yooper]

If anything, the only thing it stands to be is that biscuit malt, which I've kept in a sealed container, bu admittedly probably for a year. I'll bring it round MLHBS and see what they thing, and toss that malt in the process.

I still really think it's the s04 yeast- that's one of the reasons I no longer use it.

 

[Miraculix]

I still really think it's the s04 yeast- that's one of the reasons I no longer use it.

Maybe it really is. I just try to figure out why I never got that in my unintentionally fruity summer Stouts...

 

[Yooper]

Maybe it really is. I just try to figure out why I never got that in my unintentionally fruity summer Stouts...

The "so4 flavor" to me is a foul-ish tart flavor, and not pleasantly fruity like other English strains can be.

 

[Miraculix]

The "so4 flavor" to me is a foul-ish tart flavor, and not pleasantly fruity like other English strains can be.

Maybe there were inconsistencies in the production? I really cannot imagine that flavour coming out of the 04 I had and I really brewed a lot with it. It was basically the only yeast I used for half a year or so...

 

[rmeskill]

Well I do have one more packet of S04-could do to just brew a half-batch of a simple ale without the biscuit and with S04 at ~20C and see where it gets me...

 

[yugga]

I would bet the S-04 is the culprit. I absolutely loath that yeast, but others don't seem to mind its flavor.

It is a variation of the Whitbread B strain, which is a very high lactic acid producing yeast. I find the liquid version more tolerable, but the dry strain for my tastes produces a tangy-estery flavor that can cover up a lot of the malt/hops and give a 'singular' beer flavor.

I couldn't agree more! I absolutely hate that yeast. Every time I've used it I could barely drink the beer it produced.

 

[timeasterday]

You guys are scaring me. I'm planning on brewing a batch of winter ale this weekend and the kit came with S-04. This will be my 3rd batch of beer and 1st time using this yeast.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

The "so4 flavor" to me is a foul-ish tart flavor, and not pleasantly fruity like other English strains can be.

What is your favorite UK strain?

 

[madscientist451]

I'd invest in some WL-002; its a very reliable yeast that can be re-pitched many times without problems and you can even use it in cider. I've stored this yeast for months in a jar in the back of the fridge and it always "wakes up" quickly and does what its supposed to do. One vial can be used for many batches so besides a little work saving it, the cost is competitive to using dry yeast.
My current jar of 002 was originally purchased about 2 years ago, but it keeps working fine ( I don't use it for every beer I make) so I haven't discarded it yet.

 

[rmeskill]

I'd invest in some WL-002; its a very reliable yeast that can be re-pitched many times without problems and you can even use it in cider. I've stored this yeast for months in a jar in the back of the fridge and it always "wakes up" quickly and does what its supposed to do. One vial can be used for many batches so besides a little work saving it, the cost is competitive to using dry yeast.
My current jar of 002 was originally purchased about 2 years ago, but it keeps working fine ( I don't use it for every beer I make) so I haven't discarded it yet.

How are you saving your yeast? Just overbuilding starters or washing yeast cake?

 

[Yooper]

What is your favorite UK strain?

It depends on what I'm making. American IPAs are great with Wyeast 1335, but for an ESB I love 1318.

 

[jlinz]

I would bet the S-04 is the culprit. I absolutely loath that yeast, but others don't seem to mind its flavor.

It is a variation of the Whitbread B strain, which is a very high lactic acid producing yeast. I find the liquid version more tolerable, but the dry strain for my tastes produces a tangy-estery flavor that can cover up a lot of the malt/hops and give a 'singular' beer flavor.

This ^

 

[jlinz]

The "so4 flavor" to me is a foul-ish tart flavor, and not pleasantly fruity like other English strains can be.

And this ^

 

[madscientist451]

How are you saving your yeast? Just overbuilding starters or washing yeast cake?

After I siphon the beer out of the carboy, I just swirl the leftover beer around, get as much of the yeast dissolved as possible, then
dump it into a quart jar. I used to "wash" the yeast but stopped doing that a few years back, its just not necessary. For the next batch, I'll use about 1/2 of the jar of saved yeast. Its not real scientific or the "right" way to do it, but it seems to be working for me.

 

[rmeskill]

Report back on this: I completely forgot I also had another beer in the (very unfinished) basement which was sitting around 60F/15C for the past month in the primary. Flavor was off right from the start-I'd tried to use a different yeast but the starter didn't take so I just tossed in S04 with the same off-flavors. MLHBS called the smell/taste 'hospitaly', and said they stopped using S04 themselves years ago. I'll try a simple pale malt bitter with a Mangrove Jack strain and with fresh biscuit malt after the holidays and see how that takes-I'm dying to get back to having fresh English Ales about! Flying through Heathrow, actually, tomorrow, and plan on a solid 2hr session of as many bitters as I can manage

 

[Rhaop]

We need try to yoopers suggestion on liquid english yeasts I don’t want to base my judgement on only having used dry strains [emoji482]

 

[user 70770]

I just finished an English bitter with s-04 and I definitely get the tart character. Yeast produces more compounds than just alcohol and CO2 and this particular strain, the whitbread B, just produces more of those in the form of various organic acids. Although I’ve definitely tasted commercial English beers with a similarly strong tart/aldehyde type character, those are not what people normally recognize as modern English bitters. I think the whitbread B strain is just old school and would be representative of beers produced over a century ago. If you look popular English beers like fuller’s or boddington, those are noticeably softer and seem to better represent people’s expectations nowadays. If you want to try something a little different, seek out Conniston’s blue bird bitter or Morland Hen’s Tooth as examples with character similar to s-04. So there may be nothing wrong with your process and you simply don’t care for the old school character of that yeast.

 

[chris000]

I should have read that thread earlier.
I did a Brown with S-04, that was kind of funny. Not really bad, just not really right either and I blamed it on myself not being too familiar with the style. I used the same yeast (another generation) in an IPA, with no issue (but that can be just as well the amount of hops). I used some of the malts from this Brown in a Lager. And before you get all over it, it was one of those brews that also included cleaning out some small amounts of leftover malts.
While I contribute some of the flavour to the yeast, there is certainly something with the malt that is part of it in my case.

 

[Rhaop]

I just finished an English bitter with s-04 and I definitely get the tart character. Yeast produces more compounds than just alcohol and CO2 and this particular strain, the whitbread B, just produces more of those in the form of various organic acids. Although I’ve definitely tasted commercial English beers with a similarly strong tart/aldehyde type character, those are not what people normally recognize as modern English bitters. I think the whitbread B strain is just old school and would be representative of beers produced over a century ago. If you look popular English beers like fuller’s or boddington, those are noticeably softer and seem to better represent people’s expectations nowadays. If you want to try something a little different, seek out Conniston’s blue bird bitter or Morland Hen’s Tooth as examples with character similar to s-04. So there may be nothing wrong with your process and you simply don’t care for the old school character of that yeast.

Do you have a favorite english strain without the tart acidic character?

 

[user 70770]

Do you have a favorite english strain without the tart acidic character?

I prefer the whitbread A strain as my go to English strain. As far as I know, the only available version is Wyeast 1099 (the 1098 being the tart B strain). The 1099 is much less tart and leaves a bit more residual sugar so your beer with have a richer body. Otherwise I’ve had good experience with Wyeast 1968/WLP002 which is the fuller’s strain. As long as you keep their fermentation above 64F, and your water has appropriate pH, you’ll make incredible beers with that one. I’ve also been curious about Wyeast 1318 London ale III which is supposedly the Boddington strain. But I don’t have experience with that strain beyond the characteristics it imparts to Boddington which I love.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

I’ve also been curious about Wyeast 1318 London ale III which is supposedly the Boddington strain. But I don’t have experience with that strain beyond the characteristics it imparts to Boddington which I love.

Apart from the obvious point that Boddies are based nowhere near London (nor Manchester these days :-( ), I've always had a bit of a problem with the identification of 1318 as "the" Boddington's strain. It doesn't account for them allegedly losing their yeast in the early 1980s - around the time they changed the recipe so it was completely different. It's plausible that they could have received new yeast from a London brewery - Courage has been suggested - but if the corporate history is so messy then it's hard to say what is "the" brewery yeast.

Ron Pattinson has a recipe for the 1987 version if you're interested.