Not a Cider Question!

[Chalkyt]

I have a problem with the current 1 gallon batch of "Elderflower Champagne" which I make just like cider. I make it every year in Spring (November, down here in Australia) just before Xmas. Yum, yum!

The process is simply Elderflowers in water with sugar, lemon zest and juice, white wine vinegar. Sit for a couple of days until natural fermentation starts (if it doesn't, add a pinch of yeast), give it another 4 or 5 days, strain, bottle and seal. Normally works a treat. (this is the Hugh Fearnley-Whittingstall recipe from the TV "River Cottage" program).

I am guessing that the "folklore" 4 or 5 days takes the SG down to something like 1.010, but I don't really know since results vary from year to year... sometimes the corks fly over the roof and other years just a gentle "pop". So this year, armed with my hydrometer I got all scientific, my OG was 1.055 and I planned to bottle at 1.010.

However, so far this year no fermentation after four days, the flowers have sunk (they usually float) and a thin white translucent film has formed on the surface. The SG is still 1.055 so I just added about 1/4 tsp of EC1118 and 1/4 tsp of nutrient (i.e. a "pinch") to see if it will kick start.

After stirring the yeast and nutrient in I now have largish bubbles on top which when burst leave a white scum. There doesn't seem to be any off taste (apart from being a bit sweet which I guess will go once fermented).

So any ideas what the film and bubbles might be? I did clean the bucket with PBW then Starsan and rinsed with boiling water.

Should I start again in case the white film is something horrible? The flowers are almost spent (they only last on the trees for a couple of weeks at the end of Spring). It needs at least two weeks in the bottle to carbonate, and Xmas is rushing towards us... Help!!!

 

[nDub]

Sub’d.

This is an interesting.

Also give it at least 72 hours for the yeast to take off.

Good luck OP! Sorry I can’t provide much help.

 

[madscientist451]

Crush up a Campden tablet, mix with distilled water or some of the must, stir it up and wait 24 hrs. Then toss the rest of your wine yeast in or a whole pack if you have it. I'd say try to ferment on the cool side, can't say if it will be ready by Christmas.

 

[Yooper]

White film is not a good sign- it is likely film yeast. You can try to use campden to knock it down and then in 24 hours repitch new yeast. Don't bother with tiny amounts- pitch a full package of yeast, which usually is about 6 grams. Why do you use white wine vinegar? I'm just curious. If it has a natural mother in it, you could turn the wine you're making into vinegar as well.

 

[Nebraskan]

I don't understand the adding of vinegar at all. I would not add any vinegar of any kind to something I plan to ferment. You have plenty of air, and that and vinegar spell disaster in the mix. The situation appears like a Kloeckera infection or Bretannomyces (sp) and either or both are not good. If it's vinegar bacteria it will live with an alcoholic fermentation and give all kinds of problems.

 

[Chalkyt]

Whoops... forgot to add the photo

 

[Chalkyt]

Thanks for the prompt replies. I am not so concerned about the failure to ferment (you never know what yeasts, if any, you might get) as I am about the white stuff as I haven't seen this before.

It all started a couple of years ago when Hugh FW made a couple of garbage bins full for a "River Cottage" party on his TV show... seemed like a lot of fun... and it has been!

A bit of Google research at that time revealed lots of "folk" recipes, all pretty much the same and all using a couple of tbsp of White Wine Vinegar. So the reason for using vinegar is "monkey see... monkey do" because the recipes call for it! I suspect that the WWV might have something to do with initiating or supporting the fermentation, but I don't really know. Surprisingly the flavour of the finished product is very much like champagne and at around 6% ABV, is great for a hot Xmas or New Year's Day here in Oz.

In the past, the white film may have been there, masked by the floating petals, but this year after a couple of days, the petals sunk. Normally the petals float on top of the must and when fermentation starts they look thick and fizzy (i.e. the CO2 bubbles and petals form a sort of mat).

I will let the current brew (with added EC1118) continue to see what happens. And, also try to make another "good" batch. The issue now is getting flowers. They are starting to brown off a bit. We have had rain for the past week, which doesn't help, especially with retaining wild yeast and a fresh flavour.

However there are some recipes that call for the common sense approach that Yooper suggests, using a Campden Tablet and which I had thought about trying (but it is a bit of fun waiting to see what the wild yeasts produce each year). Another alternative is using boiling water to start then relying on added yeast.

If I can salvage enough flowers I will try making another batch as though I am making cider but without the vinegar. i.e. mix the petals, lemon zest and juice, toss in a campden tablet, wait 24 hours, add a proper dose of E1118, then bottle at SG1.010

I will let you all know how it goes.

 

[Nebraskan]

Trust me, you're better off not relying on "wild" yeasts, but rather adding in a good cultured yeast and make use of Campden tablets.... no vinegar. Yeast, sugar, flower petals, perhaps some nice acid in there like malic or citric. No acetic acid.

 

[Chalkyt]

It is a rainy afternoon here, so I have put Dr Google to work. The short answer seems to be that no-one knows why the traditional folk recipes for Elderflower Champagne use white wine vinegar. However is seems that a few people have asked the question. The answers from various sites include...

-Most white wines need extra acid and traditionally vinegar was more available than lemons.
-Vinegar is a bacteriacide and was used before Campden Tablets existed.
-It gives a better colour to the final product (don't know why!)
-You can also use cider vinegar (with mother or without????)

Sounds like one of life's little mysteries!!!!

And yes, Nebraskan. If I can round up enough O.K. flower heads after the rain, the next batch will be flowers, sugar, citric acid with lemon juice and zest plus EC1118. Any thoughts on how much citric acid, or just go by taste?

 

[bernardsmith]

Elderflower wine is our favorite and I make a couple of batches each year. Indeed, I have one batch in my make-room that I will be bottling very soon. I am familiar with those recipes that call for vinegar and I too have absolutely no idea why it's called for. But many folk recipes make very little sense (check out so-called "marrow rum". Marrow (zucchini) wine tastes delicious but the folk recipe is insane).

Never added vinegar and in fact I try to keep vinegar as far away from my wines as physically possible. Your idea of adding citric acid or acid blend or lemon juice is good IF the wine tastes too bland and needs some kind of kick (the TA should be about .65 g/L). But rather than use an aggressive yeast which IMO tends to blow off much of the flavor try 71B. In fact, you might try Belle Saison yeast (an ale yeast). Belle Saison imparts peppery notes and that would work really well with elderflowers... Anyway, for my next batch I plan to use Belle Saison (my current batch uses DV10 for added mouthfeel)

 

[Chalkyt]

Thanks for the info re 71B and DV10. I looked them up and will try them next year. How do they go with cider, particularly in regard to preserving the apple flavour?

The conventional wisdom seems to be Nottingham or EC1118 (I have used both), although also SO4 looks to be worth trying. I wasn't aware that yeasts could be such an important variable.

My plan for cider next year is to make my own AJC (i.e. freeze then partly thaw some crush juice to drain off the concentrated AJ) then use this instead of sugar to prime up to 1.010 for carbonation. I have certainly found that EC1118 is aggressive and blows off a bit of flavour.

Anyhow, back to Elderflower Champagne (apples are four months away for us). I added EC1118 to the first batch and it seems to be fermenting (a few bubbles and rising petals) but the film was still there and showing streaks a bit like fungus you get on rotting timber. The SG hasn't changed so I suspect that this lot will be a "throw away".

A bit of searching yesterday found enough intact heads to put down another batch, this time with a campden tablet. I will pitch some EC1118 today and see how it goes. Xmas is getting close!

 

[Nebraskan]

We fermented over 250,000 gallons of cider (so far) this year using DV-10 yeast. It works very well with cider, preserving the flavors and has low SO2 formations, and lower Nitrogen requirements as well. We don't and I would never recommend 71B or SVG yeast for cider. The reason is they both metabolize Malic acid, and since we add a ton (literally) of Malic acid, we don't want it metabolized and lowering the TA (total acid) using these yeasts. 1.010 S.G. is equivalent of 2.56 Brix and that may be a tad too high for cider. I can check with Matt to see what he CO2 pressures the cider in the bright tank to, but just don't remember at the moment.
Remember, yeasts like PDM, and others designed for sparkling wine, have the ability to use up every bit of sugar in secondary fermentation.

 

[Chalkyt]

Thanks for the comments on 1.010 being a bit much for carbonation. I have seen that figure suggested on a few web sites so my plan is based on nothing more than that. Being relatively new to this game (well, a couple of years), before stumbling across this forum some of my results weren't all that good. The problem with the forum is the more I find out, the more I realise what I don't know!

My Autumn batch has turned out O.K but probably needs a bit more character, hence the idea of adding AJC for priming or as suggested, maybe check whether Malic Acid is needed.

Using the "Brewer's Friend Calculator" I added sugar to get 2.5 - 3.0 volumes of CO2 when bottling. I don't really know what I got. The fizz is O.K. but could be a little bit more, however I wasn't smart enough to record the SG after I added the sugar to the bottling bucket so I don't know where I was in relation to 1.010. I do know that the SG after secondary varied from 1.000 (Safecider and Nottingham yeasts) to 1,004 (EC1118) prior to adding sugar and bottling. Yep, because our small orchard has four varieties of apples, there were a few experimental batches using the same apples but different yeasts and different apples with the same yeasts. Interesting that in relation to acidity and taste, I think the best was 2:1 Granny Smith/Pomme de Neige. Unfortunately in Spring, some deer came in and trashed some of the trees so these apples will be in short supply next autumn.

Is there any reference that relates bottling SG to the amount of resulting carbonation?

I hope Santa is bringing Claude Jolliceur's book for Xmas, so I can confound myself with science and perhaps answer a few questions.

P.S. can anyone tell me how to add an Avatar... pretty boring just having a Question Mark.

 

[Nebraskan]

Avatar: Very top of this page, and left of the search box you will see a figure looking like a human with head (sort of) and if you click on that and look down the left column you will see "Avatar" there you can choose an avatar.

"Fizz" is not only determined by how much sugar you put into the prime solution, but also on what yeast. EC1118 is a good choice, also known as PDM . However, it, and other yeasts used for sparkling are depending on sufficient colony and nutrients to do the job. Sugar is not the nutrient that yeast need during bottle fermentation. They will use it but they also need other amino and nitrogen needs for growing, and have to do so under difficult conditions of pressure.

 

[Chalkyt]

Well, the dust has settled and this is where the Elderflower Champagne drama ended up.

Both the original "dodgy"batch and the "new"batch started fermenting around the same time after adding a campden tablet to the new batch and EC1118 to both.

After a further six days (12 altogether) the "dodgy"batch seemed to have stabilised at 1.030 and didn't change. It tasted O.K. and I wasn't ill after the tasting so I bottled it in champagne bottles, corks wired on. It will be stored in a garbage bin with a clip-on lid that I keep in my store room for holding potential bottle bombs until enough time has passes to safely lift the lid. Wish me luck!

The "new"batch fermented very quickly and almost overnight on day six went down from 1.020 to below 1.005. So I sugared it back up to a bit over 1.010 and bottled that also. That will be stored in a cardboard box in the store room but probably isn't at risk of blowing up!

So, overall 14 bottles out of a planned 18 (quite a bit lost to testing the SG along the way). The process is a bit like making cider but it all happens quickly. It probably won't be carbed up enough for Xmas but by New Year both should be good.