First time brewer as a father/daughter project. I think i messed up a few things.

[Tiffany B]

Hi all,
My dad has had an apple tree for decades and we usually just make apple butter. This year i decided we should make hard cider. I spent a ton of money and have no experience.
I checked my sg with just the fresh pressed juice 1.043. But i didn't check after the sugar! It was 5lbs dextrose and 1lb plain white sugar for 6lbs. 2 packets D47.
Then on day 4&7; 3tsp nutrient.
At some it stopped fermentation because at almost 2wks it was only 1%abv.
I added 1lb honey and a jar of apple butter and another packet of yeast. Fermentation seems to have picked up again but now i have no clue what to do with my horrible math.
I'm hoping for 7-8%abv. Can anyone tell me if i ruined my first batch?
Thanks for listening.
Tiffany

 

[JoshuaWhite5522]

A lot going on here. I doubt you've ruined you cider but who knows what you'll get!.

How many gallons was the batch in total? (I will assume 5 gallons for my math below)

1.5oz of sugar will raise you gravity by about .004 in a gallon. So 6lbs of sugar in a five gallon batch gives you an sg of about 1.055 which makes you just shy of 1.100 when you figure the juice started at 1043. With the extra lb of honey you might be about 1.110. I'm not sure what the apple butter will add

D47 can handle up to 14% abv so assuming would ferment as much as the yeast can handle you get the full 14% and finish with some residual sugar. I'd expect more in the 10 to 12%range

 

[Tiffany B]

A lot going on here. I doubt you've ruined you cider but who knows what you'll get!.

How many gallons was the batch in total? (I will assume 5 gallons for my math below)

1.5oz of sugar will raise you gravity by about .004 in a gallon. So 6lbs of sugar in a five gallon batch gives you an sg of about 1.055 which makes you just shy of 1.100 when you figure the juice started at 1043. With the extra lb of honey you might be about 1.110. I'm not sure what the apple butter will add

D47 can handle up to 14% abv so assuming would ferment as much as the yeast can. handle you get the full 14% and finish with some residual sugar. I'd expect more in the 10 to 12%range

Thank you! The math gets pretty daunting the emotional rollercoaster is wild. The original start was 6 gal cider to 6lbs sugar. I think the honey & apple butter would count as 1lbs each.
Im debating on throwing in the last 2 packets of yeast with more nutrient? Im going to let go a few more days tho.

 

[IslandLizard]

Moderator's note:
I've moved the thread to the Cider Forum.
Hopefully some cider experts can chime in and help our new member.

 

[Chalkyt]

Wow... that is a lot of sugar! By my math you have 217g/L of sugar whereas cider usually starts with somewhere between 100 and 125g/L. Following is my rough stab at a recovery suggestion. Others might have a better idea... let's hope so.

To get back to cider rather than rocket fuel, the whole batch possibly needs to be diluted to bring the of sugar to at least below 150g/L (about SG 1.070). This probably means adding about twice as much "normal" juice... possibly bought juice (with absolutely no preservatives), so to see if diluting works, it might be worth breaking it into smaller batches than 6 gallons.

I find it is easier to work in metric units so my arithmetic is...

Original juice 6 gallons at SG 1.043 = 23 litres at 90 g/L of sugar = 2000g of sugar
6 lbs sugar plus 1 lb honey and other stuff, say about 7lbs sugar equivalent = 3000g of sugar
End result = say 5000g of sugar or 217g/L i.e. about 60% more than you need for 8%ABV.

If you diluted a gallon of what you have with fresh (perhaps bought) juice at (say SG 1.045 = 95g/L sugar) then you could have...

8L or about two gallons of fresh juice = 760g sugar.
4L or about one gallon of your cider = 868g sugar.
12L or about three gallons of "new" cider = 1628g sugar.

This gives you 1628g of sugar in 12 litres or 135 g/L, i.e. SG1.062 or potential 8% ABV. This could be scaled up to whatever quantity you want. Conveniently, 2:1 mix gives you the right Specific Gravity for 8% ABV.

You mention that your cider is 1% ABV... how did you measure this? That suggests that the Specific Gravity hasn't changed from where it started, somewhere near 1.100.

The yeast and nutrient already there should be more than enough for complete fermentation. If no fermentation has taken place we would normally suspect some (yeast killing) preservative is involved, or at least very low levels of YAN normally provided by a yeast nutrient on top of what is in the original juice, so that is still part of the mystery.

You can fiddle with the ratios of your cider and diluting juice but the above should give you an idea to try.

Hope this helps. I agree that "all is not lost", but don't really know what you might end up with.

 

[Tiffany B]

Wow that is a lot to take in. Not sure why i thought 1lb sugar to 1gal was barely going to get to 6%.
Im gonna have to talk with my dad about buying more carboys and grinding the rest of his apples on the tree.
I wonder if the high sugar is why fermentation stalled? But it picked back up after i added more things.
How often do batches go weird?

 

[mac_1103]

8L or about two gallons of fresh juice = 760g sugar.
4L or about one gallon of your cider = 868g sugar.
12L or about three gallons of "new" cider = 1628g sugar.

Im gonna have to talk with my dad about buying more carboys and grinding the rest of his apples on the tree.

If it was me, I would put half a gallon of store bought juice and a quart of the stalled cider in a 1 gallon jug and see if it starts ferementing. If it does, then you can worry about pressing more apples and finding something to ferment the whole batch.

 

[superiorsat]

At some it stopped fermentation because at almost 2wks it was only 1%abv.

It would seem more likely that your 1% was inaccurate ( it's hard to keep good yeast down). How did you come up with that? You didn't mention a FG at the 2 week mark. Did you use an alcohol by volume calculator to come up with this 1%?

 

[Tiffany B]

It would seem more likely that your 1% was inaccurate ( it's hard to keep good yeast down). How did you come up with that? You didn't mention a FG at the 2 week mark. Did you use an alcohol by volume calculator to come up with this 1%?

I used a refractometer (but with wrong og#) it got to 1.034. But also a hydrometer that i thought matched 1%? Maybe i misread it.
Then i added 1 more packet yeast, honey, and apple butter to 1.040.
It has been steadily bubbling. The day before yesterday my checked and it was back down to 1.036.

 

[mac_1103]

Do you know your total starting volume?

 

[AlexKay]

Without a good number for your OG (hard with all the various additions), the refractometer reading mid-fermentation is going to be relatively meaningless. That is because you've got a mix of sugar and alcohol in there, each does different things to the refractive index, and with a single reading you can't figure out which is doing which.

If it is bubbling I would let it be. Maybe a week from now, check it with the refractometer. Then check it again a few days after that. If the two readings are the same, it's either stuck or (more likely) done. Then taste it and get a general idea of how sweet and how alcoholic it is. If you have two readings the same and it tastes dry, go ahead and package it. Otherwise a refractometer reading a week until it levels off completely.

 

[mac_1103]

Or maybe the volume of the fresh juice before the other additions? I think your additions amount to about 300 gravity points and add about a half a gallon of volume. So you should be able to get pretty close to your starting OG with some simple arithmetic. Others have provided the same information in different ways, but I find it easier to think about it like this:

1 lb corn sugar = 42 gravity points (~6-8 fluid ounces?)
1 lb honey = 35 gravity points (~11 fluid ounces)
5 lb table sugar = 230 gravity points (~48 fluid ounces)

 

[bruce_the_loon]

I used a refractometer (but with wrong og#) it got to 1.034. But also a hydrometer that i thought matched 1%? Maybe i misread it.
Then i added 1 more packet yeast, honey, and apple butter to 1.040.
It has been steadily bubbling. The day before yesterday my checked and it was back down to 1.036.

The ABV% scale on a multi-scale hydrometer is not a measurement of how much alcohol is in the cider, it is a rough prediction of potential alcohol once fermentation is completed. There is a hydrometer that measures direct alcohol percentage in distillation output, but that is only valid if you're distilling and making spirits.

 

[Tiffany B]

Wow... that is a lot of sugar! By my math you have 217g/L of sugar whereas cider usually starts with somewhere between 100 and 125g/L. Following is my rough stab at a recovery suggestion. Others might have a better idea... let's hope so.

To get back to cider rather than rocket fuel, the whole batch possibly needs to be diluted to bring the of sugar to at least below 150g/L (about SG 1.070). This probably means adding about twice as much "normal" juice... possibly bought juice (with absolutely no preservatives), so to see if diluting works, it might be worth breaking it into smaller batches than 6 gallons.

I find it is easier to work in metric units so my arithmetic is...

Original juice 6 gallons at SG 1.043 = 23 litres at 90 g/L of sugar = 2000g of sugar
6 lbs sugar plus 1 lb honey and other stuff, say about 7lbs sugar equivalent = 3000g of sugar
End result = say 5000g of sugar or 217g/L i.e. about 60% more than you need for 8%ABV.

If you diluted a gallon of what you have with fresh (perhaps bought) juice at (say SG 1.045 = 95g/L sugar) then you could have...

8L or about two gallons of fresh juice = 760g sugar.
4L or about one gallon of your cider = 868g sugar.
12L or about three gallons of "new" cider = 1628g sugar.

This gives you 1628g of sugar in 12 litres or 135 g/L, i.e. SG1.062 or potential 8% ABV. This could be scaled up to whatever quantity you want. Conveniently, 2:1 mix gives you the right Specific Gravity for 8% ABV.

You mention that your cider is 1% ABV... how did you measure this? That suggests that the Specific Gravity hasn't changed from where it started, somewhere near 1.100.

The yeast and nutrient already there should be more than enough for complete fermentation. If no fermentation has taken place we would normally suspect some (yeast killing) preservative is involved, or at least very low levels of YAN normally provided by a yeast nutrient on top of what is in the original juice, so that is still part of the mystery.

You can fiddle with the ratios of your cider and diluting juice but the above should give you an idea to try.

Hope this helps. I agree that "all is not lost", but don't really know what you might end up with.

Using joshs' math i think my actual OG was 1.086. It is currently at 1.035. In the name of sanity i think i am going to split this batch into 2 and grind more apples to dilute it. Too much sugar is the only problem that makes sense so far. There are no preservatives, 3packets yeast, & nurtients.

 

[superiorsat]

In the name of sanity i think i am going to split this batch into 2 and grind more apples to dilute it.

If your starting gravity is 1.086 and FG is 1.035 you would only be around 7% ABV but very sweet (why split anything other than to cut the sweetness which I would probably choose water over sweet apple juice) . Are you showing 1.035 on a hydrometer and at what temp and what temp is it calibrated for? Tasting before any drastic attempt to fix would probably be a good idea.

 

[Tiffany B]

If your starting gravity is 1.086 and FG is 1.035 you would only be around 7% ABV but very sweet (why split anything other than to cut the sweetness which I would probably choose water over sweet apple juice) . Are you showing 1.035 on a hydrometer and at what temp and what temp is it calibrated for? Tasting before any drastic attempt to fix would probably be a good idea.

Honestly none of this math makes sense. So please double check me:

6gal pre sugar cider = 1.043
5lbs dextrose & 1lbs granulated sugar added, no sg taken.
2pck d47
3tsp yeast nutrient day 4 and again day 6
Sg 1.034 (against what i thought at the time was 1.043)
Added 1lb honey and 1 jar apple butter thinking it ran out of sugar
And another yeast pck
Yesterday was at 1.035

 

[IslandLizard]

Yesterday was at 1.035

What instrument did you use to measure that gravity?

 

[Tiffany B]

What instrument did you use to measure that gravity?

Refractometer

Ps after adding honey went from 1.034 up to 1.040 before dropping back down to 1.035 yesterday.

 

[IslandLizard]

Refractometer

Alcohol presence skews refractometer readings (badly), due to alcohol having a much higher refraction index than sugar. You'll need to use a correction formula/calculator that includes both your OG (include all the sugars added over time) and your current reading to get a realistic current SG (Specific Gravity) value.

https://www.brewersfriend.com/refractometer-calculator/or
http://seanterrill.com/2012/01/06/refractometer-calculator/
To arrive at your current %ABV, use a calculator entering both OG and current SG or FG (Final Gravity) values.
https://www.brewersfriend.com/abv-calculator/Or use this handy formula:
ABV = (OG – FG) * 131.25

 

[homebeerbrewer]

My brain hurts from all the math, but my advice would be a simple taste test. As has been said, the refractometer will be off when there is alcohol present. And since you added more sugars after fermentation started, even taking a hydrometer reading after the additions won't give you a good number to calculate alcohol. You could possibly have rocket fuel at this point. A very sweet rocket fuel. So pull a hydrometer sample, take a reading, and then drink the sample.

 

[mac_1103]

6gal pre sugar cider = 1.043
5lbs dextrose & 1lbs granulated sugar added, no sg taken.
2pck d47
3tsp yeast nutrient day 4 and again day 6
Sg 1.034 (against what i thought at the time was 1.043)
Added 1lb honey and 1 jar apple butter thinking it ran out of sugar

I get 1.092 without the apple butter. No idea how much sugar that has or how big the jar was. Used the Brewer's Friend calculator for the recipe and assumed that the additions increased the volume by a half a gallon. Used this calculator to convert the 6 gallons of apple cider to 52.5 lbs.

Leave it alone. It will be fine. 10.3% ABV. Nice and dry.