New England IPA "Northeast" style IPA

[Dgallo]

I am still new to Cryo. Do we expect anything gained from mixing Cryo and T90? Compared to pure Cryo?

http://scottjanish.com/lupulin-powder-vs-pellets-experiment/

 

[tbaldwin000]

I am still new to Cryo. Do we expect anything gained from mixing Cryo and T90? Compared to pure Cryo?

I'd say so. All of the pure cryo beers I have had have been lacking, and they were made by very good producers of haze. They lacked body, and depth of hop character. I have had some exceptional beers that utilise both formats in combination.

 

[bailey mountain brewer]

Brewed up a batch this weekend as mentioned in an earlier post, I do 15gal batches and despite a couple minor setbacks I have high hopes for this one. Put my water together friday night and woke up at 6am to turn the kettles on (spike eherms system) then went back to bed due to slightly hungover... ooops. I knew I had a good hour though. So I get back up and we are approaching mash in temps so I start crushing grains, forgot to change out my bucket under my mill, homemade motorized mill that will hold about 20lb in the hopper which fills the bucket to the top, made a mess as I was crushing a total of 38lbs, ughh, moving on. Got that straightened out and started mashing in, PH was 5.28 @ 70f about 15 to 20 minutes into the mash. My head started to clear around mash out and I had all my ducks in a row, preboil gravity was within .002 of target so all that went well. Hops were simcoe, mosaic, and azacca, with mosaic taking the lead. Fermenting with a built up 2nd gen of imperial A38 plus a pack of us05 to help with attenuation, my first time doing this so its a bit of an experiment. Fermentation kicked off within a couple hours and has been ripping since.


Cheers!

 

[aaronm13]

Thanks to @Dgallo and others on this thread for suggesting the Strata/Idaho 7/Citra combo. Just tapped a keg of this. So good!!

I hadn’t used strata or Idaho 7 before. Will definitely be staples going forward.

What amounts did you use in the hot side and dry hop? Have all 3 and looking for something new to try.

 

[CrookedElbowBrewing]

I have an extra CO2 line in my keezer for purging bottles before filling them off of my flow control taps. Basically when you get a crowler fill at a taproom you can see them purge/flood the can with CO2 prior to filling off the tap, then they cap on the foam. There was a research study referred to in Scott Janish’s book I believe that showed flooding your fermenter from the top with CO2 after dry hopping helped reduce oxidation of IPAs. I’ve also bubbled CO2 into my fermenter from the bottom port and then out the blow off tube but flooding from the top is easier. If there’s still yeast activity it’s value is debatable but if you’re opening up at the end of fermentation you need to purge the O2 out.
The drop in freezer I ferment in is full to the rim with CO2 a few days into fermentation so opening my lid to add hops has minimal O2 ingress, but I still flood the headspace anyway.

 

[CrookedElbowBrewing]

Cryo hop use is covered thoroughly by Janish. The brewers that he interviewed that experimented with it’s use generally agreed that 100% cryo hopped beers were one dimensional with aroma being the prominent factor. They also complained of a grittiness in the 100% cryo-hopped beer that could only be resolved with a centrifuge. The T90 pellets brought in another dimension of hop flavor/juiciness that cryo alone lacked. They found that around a 50/50 ratio of cryo/T90 provided the best balance of hop aroma and flavor. Just remember that the cryo hops are concentrated so you’ll use 1/2 as much compared to T90 pellets. I’ve been trying to hit a 50/50 ratio on all of my IPAs for the past year and it’s not always possible because not everything is available in cryo pellets but it has made a significant difference in flavor /aroma and eliminated my issues with hop bite on the finish. I typically TDH with a total of 10-12oz pellet equivalents for 6G, with the last 3-4oz in the keg. The keg TDH is always 1oz cryo with 1-2 oz T90 pellets.

 

[bailey mountain brewer]

Jumping back to the ascorbic acid, I am interested in giving this a go. Am I ok to add it when I dry hop?Typically 3 days before kegging and around say 50f to 55f.

 

[CrookedElbowBrewing]

Jumping back to the ascorbic acid, I am interested in giving this a go. Am I ok to add it when I dry hop?Typically 3 days before kegging and around say 50f to 55f.

I’ve only read about it being used at bottling/kegging so that’s where I’ve used it. I think adding it with your DH just a few days before kegging should be fine.

 

[DuncB]

Just an update on my now becoming a Brute of a NEIPA, noticed the ispindel had stopped sending signals. Went and had a look and the damm thing had sunk.
Now it's acting as a nice little partial obstruction to the outflow on the fermentasaurus and making it difficult to get the yeast out.

Must find a 3d printed solid lid for the petlings to prevent this problem and mitigate the changes that occur with pressure. Think that the hot temps of kveik ferment at 35 celsius might not have helped.

 

[Noob_Brewer]

I have heard not to add SMB post fermentation typically. I am also pretty careful about oxygen ingress, but in a homebrew setting it is really tough to avoid.

But with all the talk about it I decided to try it with my last dry hop and there was no detrimental affect. The beer is actually quite good. But I used very small amounts as I was really concerned about turning it into a sulfur fart bomb

.07g SMB
.07g Ascorbic Acid

This was added to 6 gallons of beer in the fermenter with the dry hop.

OK Im curious about these SMB and ascorbic acid additions for the cold side. Ive noted, after brewing for a little over a year, that my IPAs generally last 1-3 months in the keg. They peak at around 10-21 days on average, depending on ABV it seems, and then maintain very well until around the 2 month mark. After 2 months, I generally start noticing aroma fading but the color and flavor are still solid. Then closer toward the 2.5-3month mark I notice the flavor not as bright, but again still pretty good. So Im pretty happy with the shelf life of my kegged IPAs, but I know that oxidation at any rate does occur even with best practices in minimizing O2 ingress. So can anyone here comment on whether these SMB and ascorbic acid contributions on the cold side actually extend the shelf life and/or allow for the "peak" flavors or aromas to last longer than 2 months? Again, after 2 months is when I definitely notice some changes to start, but even at 3 months the beers are still pretty good, not blatantly oxidized/brown, but clearly past their peak. If there are any links to this cold side practice, Id love to read them. Might have to revisit Jannish's book if theres anything in that book on this topic.

 

[DuncB]

@Noob_Brewer
I have asked about this a few times having seen it recommended. It does seem to divide opinion from good idea to terrible. I again would like to see the science and try it perhaps as a bottle dosing in the first instance then I can compare dosed and undosed.
Seems to make sense to me and the wine industry use it a lot but that didn't seem a defense according to some of the replies I had.
I'd just like to know what ppm per litre to try, especially as I am counter pressure filling my bottles so no yeast to munch any oxygen ingress.
I also don't maintain the cold chain with the bottle so would see accelerated aging in comparison to keg. Maybe worth a new thread?
Some people are sensitive to sulphites but my consumers could be all warned if needed. I think that all beer is changing in the keg with time and not sure anything is going to stop that " development " but if there was something to decelerate deterioration of highly sensitive beers I'd give it a go.

 

[Noob_Brewer]

@Noob_Brewer
I have asked about this a few times having seen it recommended. It does seem to divide opinion from good idea to terrible. I again would like to see the science and try it perhaps as a bottle dosing in the first instance then I can compare dosed and undosed.
Seems to make sense to me and the wine industry use it a lot but that didn't seem a defense according to some of the replies I had.
I'd just like to know what ppm per litre to try, especially as I am counter pressure filling my bottles so no yeast to munch any oxygen ingress.
I also don't maintain the cold chain with the bottle so would see accelerated aging in comparison to keg. Maybe worth a new thread?
Some people are sensitive to sulphites but my consumers could be all warned if needed. I think that all beer is changing in the keg with time and not sure anything is going to stop that " development " but if there was something to decelerate deterioration of highly sensitive beers I'd give it a go.

I agree with this overall. I'm always up for trying new things and have read extensively about LODO in general which starts with the hot side procedures too. My feelings are that without a DO meter ($$$) on hand, one would not know how much to dose the beer with these scavengers (SMB) without getting the sulfur bombs. So relying on a generic ppm might be dangerous anyways because it would seem to be very user process dependent. It also seems a little bit counterintuitive to me to add SMB during active fermentation because then the yeast and SMB would actually compete for the available oxygen which could lead to under attenuation (if SMB "wins") or a fart bomb (if the yeast win the oxygen competition). So my original question remains: if adding SMB or absorbic acid on the cold side only, Im curious as to users opinions if they think it really extends the shelf life of the beers beyond 2-3 months. I know peeps who embrace the entire LODO techniques (hot side and cold side best practices) report extended shelf life but not sure if just adding the SMB, AA on the cold side only would add benefit. Lots to think about and lots to learn.

EDIT: would ideally love to borrow a DO Meter from someone around me simply to evaluate the DO going into the fermenter, DO at hydrometer sampling after fermentation complete, and DO at kegging to get an idea on how much DO is added on my existing cold sides processes. That information would be super helpful. Im a data geek anyways lol.

 

[DuncB]

Yes @Noob_Brewer
I'd only be interested in it's application at the kegging and bottling phase. There's not much else I can do after oxygenating the wort to reduce Oxygen levels I think it's a fairly tight process that I've got.
I just need some ball park info to give it a whirl. Gash on Home Brew Network mentions 3 grams Sod Met in the keg water and then pumps it out with CO2 and says the residual water left behind below the dip tube has enough Sod Met to work it's magic. But it seems more makes me feel good rather than knowing it.

 

[Dgallo]

OK Im curious about these SMB and ascorbic acid additions for the cold side. Ive noted, after brewing for a little over a year, that my IPAs generally last 1-3 months in the keg. They peak at around 10-21 days on average, depending on ABV it seems, and then maintain very well until around the 2 month mark. After 2 months, I generally start noticing aroma fading but the color and flavor are still solid. Then closer toward the 2.5-3month mark I notice the flavor not as bright, but again still pretty good. So Im pretty happy with the shelf life of my kegged IPAs, but I know that oxidation at any rate does occur even with best practices in minimizing O2 ingress. So can anyone here comment on whether these SMB and ascorbic acid contributions on the cold side actually extend the shelf life and/or allow for the "peak" flavors or aromas to last longer than 2 months? Again, after 2 months is when I definitely notice some changes to start, but even at 3 months the beers are still pretty good, not blatantly oxidized/brown, but clearly past their peak. If there are any links to this cold side practice, Id love to read them. Might have to revisit Jannish's book if theres anything in that book on this topic.

What gas/liquid draft lines do you use?

 

[Noob_Brewer]

What gas/liquid draft lines do you use?

EVA Barrier 4mm for liquid, and the red dual layer hose (5/16 ID, 9/16 OD) for gas. When I set up my keezer, I bought the red hose for gas first, but at some point might switch that over to EVA barrier as well. EVA Barrier is cheap and very effective IMO. Due to the reduced ID compared to 3/16", your lines don't need to be super long either. Last I looked you can get 39ft of the EVA barrier for about $17. Plenty for a 6 tap keezer (~5-6ft per keg).

 

[DuncB]

@Noob_Brewer

Found this

https://brulosophy.com/2019/02/11/p...at-packaging-has-on-beer-exbeeriment-results/

 

[CrookedElbowBrewing]

If your IPAs have a solid shelf life out 2 months I wouldn’t worry about adding antioxidants. My kegs are done at about 1.5 months. I only started using antioxidants after a split batch ended up with an oxidized ipa out of the gate in one of the kegs that I couldn’t explain so I was looking for cheap insurance that didn’t screw up the flavor/aroma but protected the beer’s stability.

 

[stickyfinger]

I've noticed with my last few batches of coldish-dry-hopped IPAs that they start out very early being a little, maybe grassy or raw, but in a kind of interesting way and then they slowly morph into something very round and delicious and more fruity around day 6-12 or so. interesting. i don't remember that happening when i did warmer dry hops.

 

[bailey mountain brewer]

I really like the results I have been getting from colder dry hop temps. I have been doing 50ish degrees for 3 days and it seems to produce a fantastic flavor. This has become my standard for this style for sure.

 

[TBA]

any idea of the lasting effects from SMB and ascorbic acid? I have an SS Brew Bucket and open the lid to toss in the dry hops. I flood with CO2. Dry hop starts at 55 degrees then next day drop to 33 for 2 days. If I also added the SMB/Ascorbic acid at dry hop time would it still give some O2 protection at transfer 3 days later? I do my best at closed transfer but it is never perfect.

 

[CrookedElbowBrewing]

If your IPAs are solid through 2 months that reflects industry standard and I would not bother adding antioxidants. I almost always avoid ipa cans older than 2 months but I’ve had really good Heady Topper and Monkish cans that were at 3 months that probably dropped off some from their peak hop freshness.
I only add them as cheap insurance because I had a split batch keg get oxidized out of the gate using the same protocols and I still have no idea what happened.

 

[CrookedElbowBrewing]

If your protocol is consistent, adding the antioxidants 3 days earlier should not change the result, you’ll just have more O2 pulled out at that DH step vs waiting til packaging. Whatever unreacted antioxidants you have will stay in solution until your next step of O2 exposure. Depending on how much O2 you inadvertently add and how much antioxidants you add you’ll most likely reach an equilibrium in solution of antioxidants that have scavenged O2 and those still in solution ready to react.

 

[gencinjay]

I tried some new hops in my last batch. All proprietary Michigan hops; 3oz Bergamot, 2oz Michigan Copper and 1oz Paradigm in the whirlpool and dry hop. It still needs a day or two, but so far my impressions are very good.

 

[R.A.I.D]

any idea of the lasting effects from SMB and ascorbic acid? (...) If I also added the SMB/Ascorbic acid at dry hop time would it still give some O2 protection at transfer 3 days later?

Once added, it will stay in the beer and be ready to bind to any oxygen. If your beer is not exposed to oxygen for the first 3 days, then it will still protect your beer when you transfer at day 3. I would just stick with AA alone. It seems like SMB easily can introduce an undesired aroma when added post fermentation.

So my original question remains: if adding SMB or absorbic acid on the cold side only, Im curious as to users opinions if they think it really extends the shelf life of the beers beyond 2-3 months.

It will protect your beer from oxidization, but the hop aroma will still fade over time.

http://scottjanish.com/lupulin-powder-vs-pellets-experiment/

Key findings:
Based on his experiment Lupulin (I assume it is similar to Cryo) is best used in dry hop compared to hot side.
Breweries are mixing Lupulin and pellets for a intense yet round experience:
"Hops and Grain have settled in using about 40% of the total dry hop charge in lupulin powder for both Citra and Mosaic and slightly more when using Simcoe to get their desired aroma intensity. Pinthouse Pizza has experimented with Simcoe, Mosaic, and Citra so far and said when using about half the dry hop amount in lupulin powder compared to pellet."

 

[Noob_Brewer]

FYI - for those of you interested, YVH has Nectaron in stock now. Typically, Ive been checking but lost track this week and 2oz packs already not available, but 8oz packs are. Love this hop.

 

[popquizkid]

Once added, it will stay in the beer and be ready to bind to any oxygen. If your beer is not exposed to oxygen for the first 3 days, then it will still protect your beer when you transfer at day 3. I would just stick with AA alone. It seems like SMB easily can introduce an undesired aroma when added post fermentation.

My understanding is that by just adding AA alone you run the risk of certain byproducts oxidizing your beer. That is why AA and SMB are typically used together.

https://books.google.com/books?id=0...corbic acid long term effects on wine&f=false
I do agree that adding SMB post fermentation you are running the risk of sulfur aromas if the SMB does not all get "used up". That is why when I tried it I used very small quantities.

 

[CrookedElbowBrewing]

Thanks on the Nectaron intel. I immediately ordered a pound because it’s been unobtanium for a while. I’ve heard really good things and can’t ant wait to pair it with Nelson.
I also came across using SMB/AA together because they interact synergistically as antioxidants and that using too much AA alone can actually lead to superoxygen radicals that can oxidize your beer.

 

[CrookedElbowBrewing]

I only use 0.2g of SMB in my kegs, which is a tiny amount. The cider I’m finishing had juice that was not acidic enough so the cider reference book called for 100ppm SMB to add shelf stability to the cider. I will only be adding 50ppm which will still be 1.5g/4.75G which seems like a ton! I’m dry hopping as well which should also retard bacterial growth so I feel ok undershooting the SMB recommended amount.

 

[Noob_Brewer]

Thanks on the Nectaron intel. I immediately ordered a pound because it’s been unobtanium for a while. I’ve heard really good things and can’t ant wait to pair it with Nelson.
I also came across using SMB/AA together because they interact synergistically as antioxidants and that using too much AA alone can actually lead to superoxygen radicals that can oxidize your beer.

Good call on getting the nectaron. I just checked YVH and its sold out already. My first brew with it I went with moutere/nectaron combo (A24 yeast, Imperial dry hop) and it was a tropical peach bomb. Second time around (same yeast) I went with moutere Idaho 7 and nectraon - it wasn't the same peach bomb and had more earthy type vibe with nice NZ diesel which I like. I will say that nectaron isn't as potent as nelson in terms of the NZ diesel type vibe but it is present for sure. I like it a lot. Never paired it with Nelson though but I imagine if you want to pull the nectaron vibe out of it, I would have higher ratio favoring nectaron relative to nelson as nelson (2020 crop) is damn potent. But if you love the NZ type varieties but want more fruity/peach vibes, nectaron will be great for ya! I ordered a pound and a half earlier today and have the shipping info already sent. Might try a single hop pale ale with it to confirm/refute what I think its giving me. Then might revisit my moutere/nectaron recipe and add citra to further push the citrus/tropical vibe that I love it for.

 

[CrookedElbowBrewing]

I’m doing a Kiwi series of IPAs this summer. First up is a split batch Imperial Dry Hop yeast vs Barbarian using Riwaka, Motueka, Rakau and in the other Waimea, Taiheke, Wakatu.
I’ve only used Nelson before and love it. I’m eager to try different NZ hop combos since most IPAs overuse Mosaic, Citra, Galaxy, etc. I usually WP with Idaho 7 since it has the highest % of survivables that persist into the fermenter according* to Yakima Chief Hops.
After ordering Nectaron I’m tempted to pair it with Nelson!
The only thing that concerns me is that for the past year I’ve been using 50/50 cryo/T90 and it really smoothened out the finish on my IPAs. Unfortunately cryo is not an option w NZ hops. I guess I’ll see how this batch goes and add a cryo blend next time around if the finish isn’t as smooth as I want it.
Here’s a prelim shot after transferring to a keg of my hard cider DDH with Simcoe cryo and Wai Iti hops and fermented with champagne yeast. I usually use a Belgian saison yeast but wanted to give this a try.