Dgallo
Instagram: bantam_brews
I was mistaken with the brewer. It’s Kimmich that’s pitching at .35ish. Nonnan pitches closer to 1.0 and Shawn hill inly discussed pitching at industry standard made his beers more bitter and harsh.
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New England IPA "Northeast" style IPA
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secretlevel
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Sorry for high-jacking this tread, lads.
Brewersfriend Starter Calculator has a 'Slurry' Yeast Type that I enter in my slurry volume into. I think their calculator is very generous for how many cells you actually need, so this may be where I'm going wrong...
Process: create a starter, decant after 2 days in fridge, then move a couple of ounces into a mason jar. Over time this will turn into about 1oz of slurry for me after I decant the beer off the top. After a month or two I'll create another starter and pitch 1L into a beer and a little bit into a jar again.
Brewersfriend calculator is telling me that after a month, I should have about 2 billion cells in 1 oz worth of slurry. Ramped up using 1L starter, I should have 146 billion. Do you think this is accurate?
I think you would have quite a bit higher cell count than 2B. I do something similar to you. I make a starter and will pitch most of it, but typically hold back 300ml. I know how many cells I need for the actual beer and then overbuild it 50-100B. I figure out how much total volume i need to keep after decanting to end up with that 50-100 in 300ml. This can result in pitching up to a litre of starter though.
So if my beer needs 200B, lets say i make a starter at 300B in order to save 100B in that jar. since I have that 300ml jar, I know that my final volume needs to be 900ml after decanting regardless if it took me 1L or 2L to get to that 300B based on my initial cell counts. To do this I'll make my starter, cold crash, pour off until desired amount, stick it back on the sitrplate to get it nice and homogenous, then pour off into that jar. I could cold crash and decant a second time to reduce the liquid into the fermentor, but i rarely do that.
I just checked on jar in the fridge and its about 1oz well compacted slurry like you have, however when i collected that 300ml that was 85B cells. I then apply the normal 20% loss calculation and figure out what I should have in there when I do my next starter for another beer. However it often ends up many months before i get back to it and the calculator says i have 0 cells. As as long as the compact slurry hasnt gone completely dark brown, i know i have cells in there. that said i typically say i have 3B cells to start at this point. It's a total guess without any backing. I just kinda pick a number and go with it.
The one comment ill make about your current process is decanting a starter of A24 is just like collecting from the bottom of your fermentor. you need to pitch the whole volume. I have had my A24 starters completely clear, but it takes months for that to happen. i will decant if its totally clear like that even though i am doing a bit of conan selection when doing it.
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I may be pitching right or wrong but i typically pitch the whole 1.5L starter 18-24hours on the plate. I haven't tried under pitching yet.
Dgallo
Instagram: bantam_brews
Sorry I don’t know enough about the slurry calculation but brewers friend is pretty reputable so I would think they give a fair estimation. But for pitch rate you can play around with the calculator it to see what you’re pitch rate and cell count would be. I use one A24 pack(within a month of mfg)and pitch into 6 gallons I get a pitch rate of .5-.55 and it’s about 180 billion cells
stickyfinger
Well-Known Member
I'm finally going to replace my glass carboys. I have been using them and sometimes corny kegs to make these NEIPAs. Ideally I would use the cornys i guess, but it just turns out that i need to use something bigger sometimes, so... Would people still recommend the Fermonster fermentors? I was going to get a couple with the wrench and also a couple ports for pressurizing during cold crashes. People sometimes complain about the lid, but I am hoping if I don't over-pressurize and if I have the wrench I should be ok? I'm also going to get a few spare lids and o-rings of course!
HopsAreGood
Well-Known Member
2-row, oats, wheat, carafoam
Strata, Cashmere, El Dorado, Columbus
Kveik Stranda(Hothead)at room temp
175 chloride, 75 sulfate, 70 salt
Carbed to 2.2 volumes
This beer has a 12 ounce dry hop loose in the keg and I’m pulling from a floating dip tube. I’m going to leave the hops in the keg and see if/when I start to get grassy or vegetal flavors.
secretlevel
Well-Known Member
That's hilarious, you crack me up. Calculators are pretty pessimistic in viable yeast calculations - I've revived packets that are 11 months old before.
I'm having one of those moments where I feel like a complete dummy since I've been decanting my starters. I shouldn't be decanting this one at all. I'm guessing after ~5 generations all I have is mostly Conan since it flocs higher. No wonder it doesn't smell the same as out of the package! fml...
She's a beauty, really curious about this hop combo! I'm guessing you might get some honeydew and canteloupe in the coming weeks, let us know how it is!
PS. 12 oz, dang
At least these are cheaper hops...
stickyfinger
Well-Known Member
Ahhh! Strata is the new name for the old X331 hop! I used that in a single hop beer in 2017. I loaded it up in hop stand and dry hop. I really didn't like that beer at all and dumped it as i recall. Make sense now, as people are saying to use it sparingly!
HopsAreGood
Well-Known Member
Interesting. I’ve never used Strata before but have heard good things...dank/cannabis/weed paired with generic tropical fruit and a specific strawberry note that many get. I’ve had commercial examples with it that I enjoyed so I figured I’d try it out.
This beer was a 45 minute boil and the hop schedule was:
.5 oz Columbus at 45, 15, 10, and 5
2 oz strata, 1 oz cashmere, 1 oz eldo and .5 oz Columbus at 170 whirlpool
6 oz strata, 3 oz cashmere, 3 oz eldo dry hop in the keg at 56 degrees.
So far it’s very smooth and far from overly aggressive or drain pour material. There is very little weed character and just a lot of berry, melon, and generic fruit character. I do expect the hop character to change over the next week or two as it conditions more, so we’ll see.
stickyfinger
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my notes say 1 oz/gal hop stand and 1 oz/gal dry hop.
nebulabrewing
Dan M.
My assumption was that less dextrins would let the hops shine without the sweetness. Honestly, I’ve gotten results with low and medium temp mashed (148-154).
My personal preference is that I’m not looking for sweetness as much as I’m looking for that juice taste I get from hops. The best hazy I’ve brewed to date was at 148F with WLP095. I’ve recently chatted with Scott Janish and he mentioned mashing hazies as high as 160F. I’m going to experiment with my next couple of brews with that high of mash temp to see what changes I experience. In the end, all the beers come out awesome haha.
Loud Brewing
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HopsAreGood
Well-Known Member
For whatever it’s worth:
I’ve played with lower and higher mash temps a lot and I’ve always thought that higher was better because of “more body”’and “better mouthfeel” but if I’m being truly honest I think some of the better beers I’ve made have been in the lower side...148-150 range.
I’ve played with lower and higher mash temps a lot and I’ve always thought that higher was better because of “more body”’and “better mouthfeel” but if I’m being truly honest I think some of the better beers I’ve made have been in the lower side...148-150 range.
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stickyfinger
Well-Known Member
i've mashed from 148 to 170F. Still fermenting the 170F versions!! but, several 165F versions were great. I don't think mash temp is nearly as important is many other factors like dry hopping amounts, type, freshness and timing or yeast usage and temps.
stickyfinger
Well-Known Member
i also recently tried doing a soft crash after primary, followed by warming to 72F for dry hop, followed by cold crash before kegging. this is my best attempt so far. i will be doing this from now. all of you who have been soft crashing and dry hopping at soft crash temp, try the cold, warm cold approach and see what you think.
HopsAreGood
Well-Known Member
Any issues with hop creep bringing it back up to 72 before crashing again?
stickyfinger
Well-Known Member
i honestly didn't even check. i just dry hopped 3 days, cold crashed 1.5 days and racked to keg. as long as i don't have diacetyl in the keg, i'm ok with whatever else happens in during the warm phase!! i used to get some bad diacetyl after racking but it hasn't been an issue since i have been preventing any air ingress after fermentation is over. also, i let my primary go 10 days. i hear you though. i had beers that were completely free from diacetyl precursors that were full of them after one dry hop in the past. i haven't had diacetyl in the finished beer in months and months though, so i'm focusing on what gives the best hop flavor at this point. so far, the cold/soft crash followed by warm dry hop has been the best.
ryanm8
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isomerization
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I may be on an island here, but I can’t stand yeast calculators!
Unless you are doing a cell count, you can’t reliably know what your input is. Different strains will have drastically different cold storage viability rates.
Additional variation arises in differences in cell density across strains. A volume of media will in theory support a certain mass of cell growth, so different strains will produce different increases in cell count.
When I see discussion of pitching rates, I wonder how close everyone really is to their number. Maybe we should talk in ranges (confidence intervals)?
Unless you are doing a cell count, you can’t reliably know what your input is. Different strains will have drastically different cold storage viability rates.
Additional variation arises in differences in cell density across strains. A volume of media will in theory support a certain mass of cell growth, so different strains will produce different increases in cell count.
When I see discussion of pitching rates, I wonder how close everyone really is to their number. Maybe we should talk in ranges (confidence intervals)?
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I'm not smart enough to perform yeast cell counts so therefore i use BS. My opinion is something is better than nothing. I need some sort of tool for pitching consistency. I agree with you about viability rates as my recent order from NB with Imperial Dry Hop is luke warm at best even with the ice pack!
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Noob_Brewer
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Lookin good @Loud Brewing! I have one of these same hop combos on tap right now that I kegged about 3weeks ago. While I got some distinct white wine/grape notes from another beer I used Nelson in (paired with Citra and Idaho7), I didn't get any of that with my citra/nelson/galaxy. The galaxy in my citra/nelson/galaxy seemed to overpower the nelson it seems. I used 1:1:1 ratios throughout so thats likely why since galaxy is so potent. While its still great (because who doesn't love a big dose of galaxy
, Id like to tweak these ratios to bring out more of the nelson with this combo. You mind sharing your hop ratio and schedule?aaronm13
Well-Known Member
Decided this is going to be my next brew. My local brewery here in Ireland is taking part in this so will be interesting to compare. I'm going to up the dry hops by at least 25% I think.
I see Track Brewing in the UK released their version yesterday except they have Amarillo listed and not Cascade.
R.A.I.D
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I want to dry hop post fermentation. I am trying to sum up on this thread. Is the following considered best practise for maximum "in your face hop aroma"?
As soon as the fermentation is complete:
Soft crash at 50F for 24 hours.
Increase to 63F and add dry hop (baged or loose).
Wait 12-24 hours.
Cold crash at 30F for 48 hours (still with dry hop in the beer).
Closed transfer to keg.
As soon as the fermentation is complete:
Soft crash at 50F for 24 hours.
Increase to 63F and add dry hop (baged or loose).
Wait 12-24 hours.
Cold crash at 30F for 48 hours (still with dry hop in the beer).
Closed transfer to keg.
isomerization
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Yes you are! You just don’t have the equipment needed. It’s liteally just counting clear/colored dots and some basic math.
That’s pretty close to what I have been doing last several batches (five or take a degree). Very pleased with the results!
Loud Brewing
Well-Known Member
For example, I if I did a single 6oz dryhop on a 5gal batch, I now split that same dose between 2-3 days to increase the surface area and contact between wort/hops. Definitely has increased my utilization.
Noob_Brewer
Well-Known Member
Im using the fermonsters with modified lids to make a "closed system" love them. If interested in more details of my system (which I can't credit to myself but many others here on HBT), heres the link: Dual Fermentation Systems Build
Noob_Brewer
Well-Known Member
Planning on trying my hand at my first Double NEIPA. My recipe Im working on has an estimated OG of 1.074 and hopping to finish at 1.014-1.015 (~8.0% ABV).
Need some thoughts/advice on:
1) how do y'all adjust your IBUs for this style? For my past few NEIPAs, Ive targeted about 40IBUs (my IBU/SG ratio has been 0.530-0.570) but it seems Im going to want to raise these IBUs due to higher alcohol content.
2) Aside from upping the IBUs a bit, do ya'll also increase the overall hopping amount? Ive enjoyed 12.5oz total from my regular NEIPAs with about at 50/50 split between hot side and cold side.
Need some thoughts/advice on:
1) how do y'all adjust your IBUs for this style? For my past few NEIPAs, Ive targeted about 40IBUs (my IBU/SG ratio has been 0.530-0.570) but it seems Im going to want to raise these IBUs due to higher alcohol content.
2) Aside from upping the IBUs a bit, do ya'll also increase the overall hopping amount? Ive enjoyed 12.5oz total from my regular NEIPAs with about at 50/50 split between hot side and cold side.
If you use grain for additional fermentables for a double NEIPA, expect the color to darken. If you want that same light yellow-orange color of a regular NEIPA, use sugar to up your OG.
as logical as this sounds, it took me a bunch of batches to figure out why my colors were so dark.
as logical as this sounds, it took me a bunch of batches to figure out why my colors were so dark.
Dgallo
Instagram: bantam_brews
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I also cut my honey malt % and use Pilsner instead of 2row to keep it lighter
Noob_Brewer
Well-Known Member
Thanks flintoid and dgallo. That’s something I hadn’t thought of. I’m going to bring 0.5lb of dextrose to the party. I typically only used 8oz of honey malt in regular NEIPAs (if at all), so if I simply keep it at 8oz since I’m using more other grains, the % will go down to about 3%. You guys target a specific IBU for the double or just keep the ibu/OG ratio the same as regular NEIPAs?
There's the magical "hop IBU chart" as when OG goes up, perceived IBUs does too.... unless your FG is off of course.
I do find that as I up the IBUs, it does seem a bit more bitter. My FGs always hover in the 1.013-1.015 range on my "big" NEIPAs (OG greater than 1.075)
I do find that as I up the IBUs, it does seem a bit more bitter. My FGs always hover in the 1.013-1.015 range on my "big" NEIPAs (OG greater than 1.075)
Noob_Brewer
Well-Known Member
This is very helpful. Based on this chart, my last couple NEIPAs have been falling into the “slightly hoppy” range targeting 35-40 IBUs at 1.061-1.065. So I’ll scale to target 45ish IBUs for this double estimated to be at 1.074. Definitely don’t want to overdo the ibu adjustment.There's the magical "hop IBU chart" as when OG goes up, perceived IBUs does too.... unless your FG is off of course.
I do find that as I up the IBUs, it does seem a bit more bitter. My FGs always hover in the 1.013-1.015 range on my "big" NEIPAs (OG greater than 1.075)
it’s interesting you state that as OG goes up perceived bitterness goes up to. Yet in beersmith if I take the same .50oz buttering charge of Columbus from a previous recipe that had an OG of 1.064, the same buttering charge applied to the double (1.074) beersmith calculates a lower IBU by about 3 IBUs. When I take the dextrose out of recipe and OG goes down, that same buttering IBU goes up slightly. Clearly I don’t understand how beersmith calculates IBUs lol. And I know “perceived” bitterness can be subjective. Anyways, I’ll target 45ish IBUs for this double as it seems to be a good compromise and only slight buttering increase.
edit: buttering = bittering lol. Damn autocorrect
stickyfinger
Well-Known Member
The chart isn't saying perceived bitterness goes up with OG. It's saying that for a given ratio, you need t adjust the bitterness accordingly for a given gravity...
Hop utilization goes down with gravity. If you ever did partial boil extract batches (backfilling with water at the end to hit your volume) the hop charges were much higher than if you were doing a full boil. This is exactly what you are describing empirically in Beersmith @Noob_Brewer
To elaborate on what @stickyfinger noted, I think you are misinterpreting it @flintoid . As OG goes up perceived bitterness goes down. If you pick an IBU in the chart, and go up (increasing gravity) the color code goes from hoppy to malty, inferring that perceived bitterness has decreased. Additionally alcohol provides its own sweetness, so as OG goes up, as long as FG isn't going up 1:1, which is unlikely, you will have a higher ABV as your OG goes up. You need more IBUS to be at the same level, which is also what @Noob_Brewer is correctly suggesting he will do when brewing his DIPA
To elaborate on what @stickyfinger noted, I think you are misinterpreting it @flintoid . As OG goes up perceived bitterness goes down. If you pick an IBU in the chart, and go up (increasing gravity) the color code goes from hoppy to malty, inferring that perceived bitterness has decreased. Additionally alcohol provides its own sweetness, so as OG goes up, as long as FG isn't going up 1:1, which is unlikely, you will have a higher ABV as your OG goes up. You need more IBUS to be at the same level, which is also what @Noob_Brewer is correctly suggesting he will do when brewing his DIPA
Noob_Brewer
Well-Known Member
Certainly appreciate the convo on this from ya'll. So I'll be using the strategy of upping the IBUs slightly to 45ish IBUs so that I maintain the same IBU/SG ratio that Ive come to like in my regular NEIPAs. Now: if hop utilization decreases with increasing gravity in general, then in my mind this would not only affect perceived bitterness but also flavors/aromas extracted on the hot side as well. So while I was thinking of simply upping my bettering charge to get the IBUs where I wanted them, it seems that upping the IBUs by increasing ALL of my hot side hops would not only get me to the desired IBU/SG ratio but also keep flavor/aroma intact as well. Am I thinking about this correctly? Ultimately Im just going to let it rip and go for it, but Im really starting to enjoy recipe development now and theres a TON of moving variables in play here.
I have zero homebrewing experience on that front but commercials are upping their rates significantly with higher abv. They aren’t the first to do this but veils recent 12.5% “quad ipa” was hopped with 12lbs/barrel...that’s 6oz per gallon, nearly two pounds per 5 gallon batch.
https://www.instagram.com/p/B-7_XyvBmhy/?igshid=17azx6fz6egh8
Dgallo
Instagram: bantam_brews
Divide the number of ounces of hops you use in your single ipa recipe by the gravity points (a 1.065 = 65 gravity point). That will give you your oz/GU Value and then you can multiply by the gravity points of your bigger ipa.
Here’s an example of a single ipa 1.065 beer using 12 ounces;
12/65 = 0.185 oz per GU.
Now the expected OG for the double double ipa is 1.078
0.185 x 78 = roughly 14.5 oz in the bigger gravity beer
Noob_Brewer
Well-Known Member
Jeez lol - Id be broke!
I have never thought about it this way before but that seems like a very good guideline for scaling up hoppy recipes.
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