New England IPA "Northeast" style IPA

[Noob_Brewer]

+1 to using cryo...but id only use it in whirlpool or dry hop... I think if it were me I'd try increasing you whirlpool amount just a bit 1st ...I'm usually in the 4-6 oz range for my whirlpool with a 1 hr stand...and before trying to just add more total hops I'd shift and ounce from the boil and an ounce from the dry hop and put it in w.p. and see what that does for ya...you could also do the same shift and take from boil and w.p and add to dry hop..if your unhappy with those results then consider either just adding 2 more ounces total into your beer and maybe getting some citra cryo to use...the later would increase total oils with out adding extra material[emoji482]

thanks for the tips @marchuk96! for my third brew that I just did on sunday, I actually shifted some of my 5min boil to the whirlpool as you suggested here. So I still had the same 6.5oz hot side (0.5ozFWH) but had 1.5oz in 5min boil and 4.5oz total in WP @150ish for 30minutes. Also "layered" my whirlpool additions equally at 1.5oz each and 10minutes apart. So hoping this helps too. Thanks!

 

[secretlevel]

Been creepin' on this thread for a while and wanted to get some thoughts on my recipe as well as the hops since I have a bunch left over. It's more of a pale ale than most of your guys' recipes:

4 gal batch
OG: 1.060
FG: 1.014

66% Maris Otter
18% White Wheat Malt
6% Flaked Wheat
6% Carapils
2.3% Honey Malt
1.4% Table Sugar

Ca 94, Mg 7, Na 0, Cl 137, SO4 65
pH 5.38

Hops: Not too sure here but wanted something fruity and wanted to try Idaho 7... I have 2oz of Citra, 8oz Mosaic, 8oz Idaho 7, 6oz Simcoe, 8oz Centennial, 5oz CTZ.
I was thinking:
5 min: 0.7oz Idaho 7, 0.7 Mosaic, 0.5 Citra
WP @ 180F: 1.4oz Idaho 7, 0.7 Mosaic, 0.5 Citra
Dry Hop 1, day 1: 0.7 Idhao 7, 0.5 Mosaic, 0.5 Citra
Dry hop 2, day 5: 2.2oz Idaho, 0.7 Mosaic, 0.5 Citra

Following @Dgallo yeast schedule, pitch A24 at 68, let free rise into 70 - 72 range, then drop back to 70 eventually.

 

[Dgallo]

What FG are you aiming for? I usually land around 1.018-1.020 which seems to be working for my beers lately. I have also settled on 8oz honey malt. Next batch I’m trying 2lbs white wheat instead of 1lb flaked wheat. I usually just add 1lb each of flaked wheat/oats. I think my grain bill is slowly getting dialed in, but tricky part seems to be the hop oils.

I originally was aiming for around 1.018 but found that finishing around 1.014 is the ideal spot for me. 1.018 have big chewy body which was fine but really wasn’t the soft pillow body that you think of with the top folks doing this style which the 1.014 was much closer.

 

[z-bob]

First define what you mean by "biotransformation" - are you talking about the release of bound hop compounds, to increase the quantity of free hop compounds in the beer, or are you talking about the conversion of eg terpenols into different compounds, which increases flavour complexity but reduces intensity mebbe 20%.

That Lallemand chart is only talking about the former not the latter. 1318 and T58 seem to be quite active at changing flavours, certainly more so than Conan.

T-58 is interesting; and I have a lot of it.

Centennial has an unusually high amount of geraniol, which is a terpenol. Columbus does not have much if any geraniol, but has that "dank" marijuana-and-cat-piss aroma that people seem to like I may just do a straight Centennial NEIPA, or add the Columbus early for bittering and Centennial for all the late additions.

 

[marjen]

Anyone see this new product yet? Wonder when home brewers are going to get a shot at it.

 

[thehaze]

I have 30 gr of Incognito Citra in my fridge, which I will be using for a simple non-dry hopped Pale Ale, in a few weeks. I will blend it with Amarillo BBC, Chinook and Cascade. 30 gr will be around 1.2 gr per liter.

1g/L Incognito in whirlpool is equivalent to 1.5lb/bbl pellets (5.8g/L), which means in my batch it will be around 7 gr hops per liter. The rest of the hops come in at around 3-4 gr per liter. Hopefully, the INCOGNITO will do what they say, add more aroma and flavour for small beers, without the need for dry hop. Probably not, but...

 

[aaronm13]

You can push it to 80 easily without negative result.

I have decent tap water for brewing and I adjust to Ca:103 Mg:14 Na:76 Cl:152 So4:105. This is what I’m the most happy with.

A lot more goes into mouthfeel then just water profile. Hops used and oil content, yeast strain, carb level, mash temp, quality of wort making it into the fermented, grain Billl, and final gravity. I personally think water profile is more fine tuning where the other have a much bigger overall impact on it

That's really interesting that you go so high with the Na addition. I'm definitely going to try and push my levels a bit to see if I get any benefits from it on my next brew. Probably use this profile completely but maybe raise Cl a bit more.

What pH do you aim for in the mash?

 

[Dgallo]

That's really interesting that you go so high with the Na addition. I'm definitely going to try and push my levels a bit to see if I get any benefits from it on my next brew. Probably use this profile completely but maybe raise Cl a bit more.

What pH do you aim for in the mash?

Sodium is a flavor enhancer, so it can help with the brightness of the hops.

I target a ph of 5.35

 

[aaronm13]

Sodium is a flavor enhancer, so it can help with the brightness of the hops.

I target a ph of 5.35

Thanks Dgallo, definitely going to try it next time. As i said Cloudwater use it in their beers. I aim for 5.35 too. Was wondering if I should be aiming a bit lower as dry hopping can raise the ph of the finished beer.

 

[Genuine]

Anyone catch the latest Basic Brewing Radio podcast about Hopstand/whirlpool length's? Seems there might be a noticeable difference between o min, 10 and 30 min.

 

[Dgallo]

Thanks Dgallo, definitely going to try it next time. As i said Cloudwater use it in their beers. I aim for 5.35 too. Was wondering if I should be aiming a bit lower as dry hopping can raise the ph of the finished beer.

Yeah fermentation will drop your ph and dryhoping can raise it. Have you checked those numbers to see where your at? You can alway adjust ph post dryhoping to where you want it just before you keg

 

[SRJHops]

Anyone catch the latest Basic Brewing Radio podcast about Hopstand/whirlpool length's? Seems there might be a noticeable difference between o min, 10 and 30 min.

Guessing the 30 mins was best? I'll give that one a listen today if I can. Looks like there was another recent one about dry hopping...

Update: I listened to it this afternoon. I'd say it was a bit inconclusive, especially for NEIPA brewers. They made three extract brews and used just a little Cascade at the various times. It wasn't a triangle test - the 2 guys just drank the 3 beers (blind). Their preference was for the 10 minute hopstand beer, but said the 0 minute beer had the most hop flavor.

So not sure what to take away from that podcast, other than it appears all of the techniques might work, depending on your taste. I do know some commercial NEIPA brewers just toss in the hops at flameout, and their beers presumably turn out great.

 

[SRJHops]

Been creepin' on this thread for a while and wanted to get some thoughts on my recipe as well as the hops since I have a bunch left over. It's more of a pale ale than most of your guys' recipes:

4 gal batch
OG: 1.060
FG: 1.014

66% Maris Otter
18% White Wheat Malt
6% Flaked Wheat
6% Carapils
2.3% Honey Malt
1.4% Table Sugar

Ca 94, Mg 7, Na 0, Cl 137, SO4 65
pH 5.38

Hops: Not too sure here but wanted something fruity and wanted to try Idaho 7... I have 2oz of Citra, 8oz Mosaic, 8oz Idaho 7, 6oz Simcoe, 8oz Centennial, 5oz CTZ.
I was thinking:
5 min: 0.7oz Idaho 7, 0.7 Mosaic, 0.5 Citra
WP @ 180F: 1.4oz Idaho 7, 0.7 Mosaic, 0.5 Citra
Dry Hop 1, day 1: 0.7 Idhao 7, 0.5 Mosaic, 0.5 Citra
Dry hop 2, day 5: 2.2oz Idaho, 0.7 Mosaic, 0.5 Citra

Following @Dgallo yeast schedule, pitch A24 at 68, let free rise into 70 - 72 range, then drop back to 70 eventually.

Grain bill looks pretty good to me. I personally like to use some malted oats, but that could be another brew for another day...

There's some thinking that the style works best at IPA (higher ABV) levels, which is why you'll see some higher OG's in many recipes, but nothing wrong with a tasty Pale Ale....

I might consider some of the CTZ for the bittering at 5 min. Or skip that 5 min, really, -- and just toss it in at flameout. I doubt it would change the IBU contribution...

Hops look good to me. I think Citra should probably be in every NEIPA, and Mosaic is always great. I would personally favor Simcoe over Idaho 7. But it looks like you are really favoring the Idaho 7, so a good experiment.

I have to admit that I found all the small hop amounts interesting. I personally like to use full ounces, and have always wondered if people can really tell the difference with partial ounce additions. But if it works for you, no worries. (I assume you can flush and store your hops and keep out O2.)

I see that it's a 4-gallon batch, but I still might add another ounce or two of dry hops on Day 5 (or before kegging/bottling). You're at 5.1 ounces for the total dh. If you went 1.5 oz/gal it would be 6 ounces, and some folks think 1.75 oz/gallon or even 2 oz/gallon is a good dry hop total.

 

[aaronm13]

Yeah fermentation will drop your ph and dryhoping can raise it. Have you checked those numbers to see where your at? You can alway adjust ph post dryhoping to where you want it just before you keg

i never bother to check ph post fermentation and after dry hopping for whatever reason. its something I must start doing more to see for myself how dry hopping effects things.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

"Simply put, biotransformation is said to occur as a result of the interaction of hop oils and active yeast, leading to a transformation of certain terpenoids into terpenoids that weren’t originally present..."

That's just a restatement of my second possible definition of biotransformation, which requires terpene synthases and isomerases and fun things like that. Whereas the Lallemand study mentioned in #10880 is looking at beta-glucosidase which, along with beta-glucanases, is involved in the release of compounds bound up in glycosides per my first definition. Yeasts that have lots of the former enzymes may not have much of the latter, and vice versa, so you have to be careful when you say "Belle/BRY-97/New England" are good at biotransformation, when in fact Lallemand are talking about a 50% increase in the (generally quite low) levels of glucosidase in the average S. cerevisiae. It's not so much that they're great at releasing compounds bound up in glycosides, but they just suck a bit less than other cerevisiae. But that's independent of whether they create interesting new flavours in the way that eg 1318 and T-58 do.

Perhaps the best way is to refer to it all as biotransformation, but specify whether you're talking biorelease or bioconversion as two different subtypes of the general concept of biotransformation.

 

[marchuk96]

I have 30 gr of Incognito Citra in my fridge, which I will be using for a simple non-dry hopped Pale Ale, in a few weeks. I will blend it with Amarillo BBC, Chinook and Cascade. 30 gr will be around 1.2 gr per liter.

1g/L Incognito in whirlpool is equivalent to 1.5lb/bbl pellets (5.8g/L), which means in my batch it will be around 7 gr hops per liter. The rest of the hops come in at around 3-4 gr per liter. Hopefully, the INCOGNITO will do what they say, add more aroma and flavour for small beers, without the need for dry hop. Probably not, but...

Where did you get the incognito from?

 

[BeerFst]

Where did you get the incognito from?

If you go back a few pages, it’s available from the malt miller in the U.K. in 15g containers. Unfortunately, to spot hops own admission on ig/fb, it’s only available in 2kg jugs in the US right now and you need a tax Id number to buy it from spot hops. I’m still hoping we see YVH figure out how to break it down from the 2kg bottles

 

[marchuk96]

If you go back a few pages, it’s available from the malt miller in the U.K. in 15g containers. Unfortunately, to spot hops own admission on ig/fb, it’s only available in 2kg jugs in the US right now and you need a tax Id number to buy it from spot hops. I’m still hoping we see YVH figure out how to break it down from the 2kg bottles

I had seen it from malt miller before...was just wondering if it suddenly became available in the U.S. from someone other than spot hops...I'm assuming you got it from malt miller then?

 

[thehaze]

I've got it from TheMaltMiller UK, yes. I live in Europe, so it was pretty easy and TheMaltMiller are really great and have a lot of diversity in their product range.

 

[Wrinkletusk]

Funnily enough I've got an Incognito brew scheduled for this weekend. Citra, Mosaic and Sabro (2:1:1) which should roughly equate to ~12g/L whirlpool.

This idea came about after buying an Amundsen Weapon X (Barth Haas colab) a couple of weeks ago. It was totally saturated with bright hop flavour. The 20g/l dry hop may have had something to do with that though.

Anyway, this brew is a bit of an experiment. Zero traditional hop products, just Flex for bittering, Incognito for whirlpool and Maniacal Yeast's Strata terpenes for "dry hop" duties. The grist is a departure too: 37% Maris, 20% Chit, 20% GNO, 20% wheat malt & 3% Honey Malt.

I have no expectations, but I'm keen to find out if incognito can replace or reduce whirlpool hop additions in future brews.

 

[beervoid]

Funnily enough I've got an Incognito brew scheduled for this weekend. Citra, Mosaic and Sabro (2:1:1) which should roughly equate to ~12g/L whirlpool.

This idea came about after buying an Amundsen Weapon X (Barth Haas colab) a couple of weeks ago. It was totally saturated with bright hop flavour. The 20g/l dry hop may have had something to do with that though.

Anyway, this brew is a bit of an experiment. Zero traditional hop products, just Flex for bittering, Incognito for whirlpool and Maniacal Yeast's Strata terpenes for "dry hop" duties. The grist is a departure too: 37% Maris, 20% Chit, 20% GNO, 20% wheat malt & 3% Honey Malt.

I have no expectations, but I'm keen to find out if incognito can replace or reduce whirlpool hop additions in future brews.

I personally wouldnt use the terpene oils only for your dryhop.
The distilled oils i've experimented with are very strong and have a totally different hop character and better used supplemental to dry hop additions.
Also a pain to get them properly mixed in.

I had a barth haas incognito colab as well, it didnt taste any different then the usual beers from the same brewer.

Interested to hear your report.

 

[Wrinkletusk]

Interested to hear your report.

Give me 3 weeks for it to get into its stride, and I'll report back.

I hope by using incognito I'll mitigate the one facet that I have no control over: the variability of the quality of hops I can buy (especially here in the UK when it comes to foreign hops). I presume the incognito I got was poured from larger tubs that were bought from spothops, so there should be no difference between what I'm using and what any other brewery is using. Maybe I'm dreaming though.

 

[Genuine]

Guessing the 30 mins was best? I'll give that one a listen today if I can. Looks like there was another recent one about dry hopping...

Update: I listened to it this afternoon. I'd say it was a bit inconclusive, especially for NEIPA brewers. They made three extract brews and used just a little Cascade at the various times. It wasn't a triangle test - the 2 guys just drank the 3 beers (blind). Their preference was for the 10 minute hopstand beer, but said the 0 minute beer had the most hop flavor.

So not sure what to take away from that podcast, other than it appears all of the techniques might work, depending on your taste. I do know some commercial NEIPA brewers just toss in the hops at flameout, and their beers presumably turn out great.

I wonder how much of a difference it would make to throw some hops in right at flame out and immediately begin chilling. Or, If there would be a difference say....3oz of hops in for 10 minute hop stand at 180 degrees, then another 3oz right as chilling begins. Could you layer the flavors differently?

 

[SRJHops]

I wonder how much of a difference it would make to throw some hops in right at flame out and immediately begin chilling. Or, If there would be a difference say....3oz of hops in for 10 minute hop stand at 180 degrees, then another 3oz right as chilling begins. Could you layer the flavors differently?

I just wish there were a TON more studies on this... Because it seems like the few studies that I've read about often contradict each other or practices that we know work. There was a study cited by Janish that said that around 200 was the best temp for extracting citrus flavors, and that at around 160 you get woody flavors. But that contradicts what a lot of homebrewers are doing and getting good flavors from at those lower temps...

In spite of that study, I do think that if you can hold the temp, the 150-160 range is a good bet, as noted by Dgallo and others.

Here's an old Brad Smith post that I always end up reading, which seems to support layering. However, read closely what he says about the 150-160 range:

"This is also a range where many pro brewers have the advantage due to the longer whirlpool times and ability to more accurately control their whirlpool temperature."

Not sure why he assumes homebrewers can't do the same thing...

https://beerandbrewing.com/the-best-way-to-use-whirlpool-hops-in-homebrew/

 

[SanPancho]

Its messy. Potent. But messy. Youll have losses from the slick that stays on the surface. Its not too bad in the grand scheme of things, better than big kettle losses. But its definitely interesting getting it to disperse. Strong whirlpool was our method. Not sure if theres a “better” method, or if you want it to go in a bit hotter maybe to help disperse? (Ours was about 180-185).
If youre only using 15g then make sure you get it all out of the packaging- maybe some vodka to rinse the residue from the container.

Id also say be careful with that “dry hop” regimen. The distilled oils ive had were gross. But there are others that are water based that work really well. Have heard of maniacals terpenes, but no idea if theyre like the distilled or the water based. I emailed them to inquire about purchasing but no response.

there are also plenty of water soluble compounds in hops that do other things, id consider the idea of bagging some flowers and putting in the kettle during boil. And definitely combining extracts with actual hops in dry hop.

 

[beervoid]

Its messy. Potent. But messy. Youll have losses from the slick that stays on the surface. Its not too bad in the grand scheme of things, better than big kettle losses. But its definitely interesting getting it to disperse. Strong whirlpool was our method. Not sure if theres a “better” method, or if you want it to go in a bit hotter maybe to help disperse? (Ours was about 180-185).
If youre only using 15g then make sure you get it all out of the packaging- maybe some vodka to rinse the residue from the container.

Id also say be careful with that “dry hop” regimen. The distilled oils ive had were gross. But there are others that are water based that work really well. Have heard of maniacals terpenes, but no idea if theyre like the distilled or the water based. I emailed them to inquire about purchasing but no response.

there are also plenty of water soluble compounds in hops that do other things, id consider the idea of bagging some flowers and putting in the kettle during boil. And definitely combining extracts with actual hops in dry hop.

Who makes the water soluble ones? I know there are guys in the UK who make a bunch if different oils now.

 

[Dgallo]

"This is also a range where many pro brewers have the advantage due to the longer whirlpool times and ability to more accurately control their whirlpool temperature."

Not sure why he assumes homebrewers can't do the same thing...

https://beerandbrewing.com/the-best-way-to-use-whirlpool-hops-in-homebrew/

I’m sure he’s making that claim because with the volume of wort on the commercial scale will take longer to cool and will not drop temperature as quickly as our hb volumes do.

 

[SRJHops]

I’m sure he’s making that claim because with the volume of wort on the commercial scale will take longer to cool and will not drop temperature as quickly as our hb volumes do.

Makes sense. I personally am not set up with a fancy way to hit specific temps, but I can turn the burner back on and monitor the temp, so holding between 150 and 160 for 30 is certainly possible.

 

[Wrinkletusk]

Its messy. Potent. But messy. Youll have losses from the slick that stays on the surface. Its not too bad in the grand scheme of things, better than big kettle losses. But its definitely interesting getting it to disperse. Strong whirlpool was our method. Not sure if theres a “better” method, or if you want it to go in a bit hotter maybe to help disperse? (Ours was about 180-185).
If youre only using 15g then make sure you get it all out of the packaging- maybe some vodka to rinse the residue from the container.

Thanks for the heads up. I was planing to whirlpool at my usual 60c, but may rethink that. I've got 4 x 15g pots, so I guess it's going to be a messy affair... I think I'll give em a warm water bath prior to dosing.

Id also say be careful with that “dry hop” regimen. The distilled oils ive had were gross. But there are others that are water based that work really well. Have heard of maniacals terpenes, but no idea if theyre like the distilled or the water based. I emailed them to inquire about purchasing but no response.

there are also plenty of water soluble compounds in hops that do other things, id consider the idea of bagging some flowers and putting in the kettle during boil. And definitely combining extracts with actual hops in dry hop.

Noted. The plan for this initial batch is to hold off on the terpenes until the beer has been in the keg for two weeks so I can gauge the incognito, and then I'll start dosing the terpenes at a rate of 0.1ml every other day to see what works for me (if at all).

 

[BeerFst]

Will be brewing a 50% oat IPA tomorrow. Whirlpool with Mosaic (leaf) and Centennial, then the original plan was to DDH with Galaxy, 3Oz each. First post ferm post crash, second in the keg. That said, I got 8oz of Sabro during the YVH sale and knowing it needs to be used sparingly im thinking i want to add an oz to each dry hop. Should I limit it to one of the dry hops and not both?

I dont seem to have a problem with grassiness keg hopping, but not sure if the longer sabro sits the more it will tend toward the cedar.

https://www.brewersfriend.com/homebrew/recipe/view/796272/50-oat-neipa