New England IPA "Northeast" style IPA

[Noob_Brewer]

I have slowly creeped up to 160ppm range with chloride and kept the sulfate around 80ppm. How do you guys get up to 200ppm chloride without getting the calcium over 120ppm? I always build up from distilled.

I work from my tap water but got a ward labs water report, so when I put targets of Ca=100, Cl=200, SO4=100, beer smith matches it as close as it can. I end up with: Cl=199, SO4=99.4, Ca=110, so a little over my Ca target

 

[SRJHops]

Yeast in the beer after fermentation has ended can be kickstarted if you introduce oxygen thus creating diacetyl.

Makes sense. All the more reason to dh cold, I would think. Of course, if you introduce too much oxygen you are gonna be in trouble anyway..

 

[Dgallo]

I have slowly creeped up to 160ppm range with chloride and kept the sulfate around 80ppm. How do you guys get up to 200ppm chloride without getting the calcium over 120ppm? I always build up from distilled.

Canning salt will add chloride without uping calcium but it ups you Na. My na is usually 60-80 and it’s undetectable but I’d be wary of going over 100 in anything other than a gose or stout

 

[DrGMG]

FYI, big breweries usually use Tanal-A to stabilize haze.

 

[TBryerton]

I get what you're saying. I know it sounds backwards, but stable haze can be created by dry hopping during fermentation. The yeast helps bind the available proteins with extracted polyphenols, creating a permanent, stable haze.

Here's an excerpt from an article by Scott Janish:

Early Dry Hopping (http://scottjanish.com/researching-new-england-ipa-neipa-haze/)
A common practice when brewing NEIPAs is to dry hop early into fermentation (sometimes as early as brew day) to encourage a process called bioflavoring, which is essentially the interaction between the active fermenting yeast and hop compounds. I’ll sidestep the research on bioflavoring for now, but this early dry hopping may be important as it relates to the protein/polyphenol reaction leading to haze. A study that looked at how the protein content in beer changes during active fermentation examined two different strains (WLP001 and KVL011). They found that with both strains, the protein content decreased during fermentation. Likely either degraded proteolytically by yeast or precipitating out with the yeast slurry. Specifically, WLP001 had a decrease of 16% and KVL001 decreased 42%.6

I wonder then if dry hopping early into fermentation is creating a situation where brewers are exposing the extracted polyphenols from the hops to a higher amount of available active proteins in the wort, essentially increasing this polyphenol and protein environment leading permanent haze. It’s also interesting to think that as the experiment above showed, different strains may be leaving more proteins in the finished beer than others. I’m curious if the same study was done with the common NEIPA strains if fewer proteins would be degraded during fermentation by the yeast, which would enhance this protein/polyphenol theory. I wonder too if more proteins are left in the finished beer if this would also play a role in the full mouthfeel of the style. As a side note, I don’t think the mouthfeel is the result purely of dextrins, which I concluded in a recent article.

‘I wonder’ is not something I would suggest using as a fact. I’ve yet to see any credible evidence that dry hopping early in fermentation is a good thing. I think Janish is great, I enjoyed his book, but sometimes I feel like it’s made alot of home brewers believe some of these nonsense brewing myths.

 

[SRJHops]

‘I wonder’ is not something I would suggest using as a fact. I’ve yet to see any credible evidence that dry hopping early in fermentation is a good thing. I think Janish is great, I enjoyed his book, but sometimes I feel like it’s made alot of home brewers believe some of these nonsense brewing myths.

Agreed. I think it's pretty clear that biotransformation can happen, but a lot less clear whether it's a good thing -- if the flavor just gets stripped away when the yeast flocs..

Here's some good reading on the topic, with some evidence for and some against: https://www.goodbeerhunting.com/blo...-understanding-hop-compound-biotransformation

 

[isomerization]

‘I wonder’ is not something I would suggest using as a fact. I’ve yet to see any credible evidence that dry hopping early in fermentation is a good thing. I think Janish is great, I enjoyed his book, but sometimes I feel like it’s made alot of home brewers believe some of these nonsense brewing myths.

With a low temp whirlpool, you have all the chemical matter needed for biotransformation. Why this isn’t discussed or studied more is beyond me.

Canning salt will add chloride without uping calcium but it ups you Na. My na is usually 60-80 and it’s undetectable but I’d be wary of going over 100 in anything other than a gose or stout

Plus you get the mouthfeel boost from the Na to boot!

 

[marchuk96]

I do not do a bio dry hop...tried a couple times and just really didn't get much impact and kinda just felt like it just got lost in the mix and was just a waste...I just do a double dry hop a few days before kegging but after ferment is done...but I've always thought and wondered...aren't we all getting some kinda bio transformation with either large additions late in boil or flameout or with whirlpool additions? As @isomerization stated there def is an abundace of hop compound at the start of ferment so one would think since they are present at the start...they must go threw some form of biotransformation once we start fermenting right? And if we assume thats true..then if you do add another dose early on in ferment does the yeast then bio transform compounds again and is that even possible for yeast to do if we assume its already done it once?

 

[Erikgn]

I'm getting ready to dry hop some mosaic in a couple of days. It'll be 4 days after racking into the secondary. My plan is to cold crash for 4 days before kegging. The question is how long to dry hop? 6 days, 4 days, 9 days. I have heard different things.

I brew using an extract kit. I used spring water. I don't keep track of my water composition. So I am pretty new to this. I just looking for some basic rule of thumb.

 

[Dgallo]

I'm getting ready to dry hop some mosaic in a couple of days. It'll be 4 days after racking into the secondary. My plan is to cold crash for 4 days before kegging. The question is how long to dry hop? 6 days, 4 days, 9 days. I have heard different things.

I brew using an extract kit. I used spring water. I don't keep track of my water composition. So I am pretty new to this. I just looking for some basic rule of thumb.

Do NOT transfer to a secondary EVER!
Just dryhop in the primary and only cold crash if you have a means to eliminate oxygen pick up. Also you only need to crash for 24-48 hours.

When it comes to dryhoping times, I only dryhop from 4-2 days prior to cold crashing, never longer than that

 

[marchuk96]

Extract is definitely a great stepping stone to all grain which I'm assuming is your goal eventually...you can make great beer with extract and some may say with the right process as good as all grain...as far as secondary goes...if you have already done it that's fine...it is not a bad practice but not really necessary and potentially risky....depending on how you are getting the liquid to secondary and what you are using you run some risk with o2 pickup and oxidation...if you can do it as a closed transfer then that's great but if its going from fermentor a) to fermentor b) the chance for degration increases...

I usually do 2 dry hops...after ferment is complete...I'll do one at day 7/8...another one day 9 both at room temp... Then cold crash and keg day 11...I've done this for most of ipas and gotten great results...great out of the bag nose...my dry hop is usually around 5-6 ounces...best of luck!! [emoji482]

I'm getting ready to dry hop some mosaic in a couple of days. It'll be 4 days after racking into the secondary. My plan is to cold crash for 4 days before kegging. The question is how long to dry hop? 6 days, 4 days, 9 days. I have heard different things.

I brew using an extract kit. I used spring water. I don't keep track of my water composition. So I am pretty new to this. I just looking for some basic rule of thumb.

 

[beervoid]

With a low temp whirlpool, you have all the chemical matter needed for biotransformation. Why this isn’t discussed or studied more is beyond me.



Plus you get the mouthfeel boost from the Na to boot!

The problem with sodium is conflicts with sulfates and creates a harshness so if used make sure those are low

 

[DrGMG]

Even at lower temperatures at whirlpool, a lot of volatility still remains. It does not compare to dry hopping in that regard.

 

[Dgallo]

The problem with sodium is conflicts with sulfates and creates a harshness so if used make sure those are low

Do you have any literature on that? I’ve never experience harshness from the combination of 80ish Na and 125ish so4. Wondering what threshold would bring the harshness

 

[Taket_al_Tauro]

Do you have any literature on that? I’ve never experience harshness from the combination of 80ish Na and 125ish so4. Wondering what threshold would bring the harshness

Would also be interested in some facts about this...
I have gone 80-90ish Na with 180 SO4 with seemingly no issues...

 

[Dgallo]

Even at lower temperatures at whirlpool, a lot of volatility still remains. It does not compare to dry hopping in that regard.

But the wh extracts compounds that can’t be extracted at Dh temps. You need to look up the interview with Industrial arts brewing regarding whirlpool and hop back temps. Really interesting

 

[marchuk96]

Even at lower temperatures at whirlpool, a lot of volatility still remains. It does not compare to dry hopping in that regard.

Yeah there could be some volatility...but that's not the question at hand...going into the start of ferment most of us are loaded with hop oils and compounds in our wort..even with volatility ive had plenty of beers smell and taste like they were good to go after ferment is done and prior to dry hopping at all..its these oils and compounds I'm speaking about and question if they go threw bio and then does reintroducing more via dry hop make this process happen again...can yeast do anything with this new introduction assuming they have potentially already bio transformed the existing oils and compounds present...maybe all this time bio is actually only happening from what was present and not from the new introduction? [emoji482]

 

[SRJHops]

I'm getting ready to dry hop some mosaic in a couple of days. It'll be 4 days after racking into the secondary. My plan is to cold crash for 4 days before kegging. The question is how long to dry hop? 6 days, 4 days, 9 days. I have heard different things.

I brew using an extract kit. I used spring water. I don't keep track of my water composition. So I am pretty new to this. I just looking for some basic rule of thumb.

Sorry to say, but you should not transfer to secondary for this style especially - odds are you are going to get a dark oxidized beer. Got to avoid oxygen exposure at all costs.

Many folks who add a final dry hop are doing it for 2-3 days or so.

If you can cold crash a day or two that is fine, but not really necessary in my opinion. Maybe a soft crash to 60 for the final dry hop, but still somewhat optional..

 

[DrGMG]

Another thing to keep in mind is that not every yeast does bio and even then, not every hop has the ingredients for it either.

 

[couchsending]

The problem with sodium is conflicts with sulfates and creates a harshness so if used make sure those are low

I’ve read this as well but I’m not 100% sure I agree with it. I mean maybe at incredibly high levels I could see that. I usually don’t push Na over 60ppm as malt can add a decent amount on its own.

one of these days when I get my 1/2 bbl system up and running I want to split a batch three ways and keep one with no NaCl, one with elevated levels and one with KCL to really compare the difference.

 

[marchuk96]

Another thing to keep in mind is that not every yeast does bio and even then, not every hop has the ingredients for it either.

Agreed that not all have that capability...but for the sake of discussion let's assume what you have used does???

 

[DrGMG]

Agreed that not all have that capability...but for the sake of discussion let's assume what you have used does???

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[beervoid]

Do you have any literature on that? I’ve never experience harshness from the combination of 80ish Na and 125ish so4. Wondering what threshold would bring the harshness

Got it from this book.
http://www.beer-brewing.com/beer_brewing/beer_brewing_water/minerals_brewing_water.htm

Also as @couchsending mentioned, malts contribute a considerable amount already and looking at finished beer mineral profiles I dont believe any brewers use it.
I opted to use potassium chloride instead as malts are very high in this already up in the 1000's so the few ppm shouldnt be noticable.

 

[aaronm13]

Could anyone post up their water profiles in ppm that they're really happy with that gives an amazing mouthfeel. My last few batches I've been using a Mike Tonsmeire profile which is

Calcium: 150ppm
Chloride: 150ppm
Sulfate: 150ppm
Others salts have been kinda low
Sodium: 13ppm
Magnesium: 5ppm
Bicarbonate: 16ppm

I'm happy enough with this profile but reckon there is definitely room for improvement. I like the idea of increased sodium levels as a brewer from Cloudwater told a friend of mine that they use table salt to increase mouthfeel but i never knew how much to add and wasn't comfortable going very high hence my pretty low level.

 

[DrGMG]

I use this from Brulosophy and it works very well.

Water Profile: Ca 117 | Mg 3 | Na 10 | SO4 84 | Cl 168

 

[isomerization]

Got it from this book.
http://www.beer-brewing.com/beer_brewing/beer_brewing_water/minerals_brewing_water.htm

Also as @couchsending mentioned, malts contribute a considerable amount already and looking at finished beer mineral profiles I dont believe any brewers use it.
I opted to use potassium chloride instead as malts are very high in this already up in the 1000's so the few ppm shouldnt be noticable.

From your link:
“Sodium has no chemical effect; it contributes to the perceived flavor of beer by enhancing its sweetness. Levels from 75 to 150 ppm give a round smoothness and accentuate sweetness, which is most pleasant paired with chloride ions than when associated with sulfate ions. In the presence of sulfate, sodium creates an unpleasant harshness, so the rule of thumb is that the more sulfate in the water, the less sodium there should be (and vice versa).”

Seems like they are talking about much higher levels than we are.

 

[Loud Brewing]

Happy superbowl sunday hopheads.
I just tapped this hazy brew for my guests to enjoy, and was quite pleased with the results .
Cheers! and lets go 9ers!

-Pilsner with a dash of Munich, malted oat, flaked oat and carafoam
-200ppm chloride, 75ppm sulfate
-Mosaic, Citra, Galaxy, Idaho 7 and Simcoe cryo
-Giga Vermont IPA (conan)
-1.012 fg, 8% abv

 

[DrGMG]

Happy superbowl sunday hopheads.
I just tapped this hazy brew for my guests to enjoy, and was quite pleased with the results .
Cheers! and lets go 9ers!

-Pilsner with a dash of Munich, malted oat, flaked oat and carafoam
-200ppm chloride, 75ppm sulfate
-Mosaic, Citra, Galaxy, Idaho 7 and Simcoe cryo
-Giga Vermont IPA (conan)
-8%

View attachment 664894

I love Conan.

 

[SRJHops]

Happy superbowl sunday hopheads.
I just tapped this hazy brew for my guests to enjoy, and was quite pleased with the results .
Cheers! and lets go 9ers!

-Pilsner with a dash of Munich, malted oat, flaked oat and carafoam
-200ppm chloride, 75ppm sulfate
-Mosaic, Citra, Galaxy, Idaho 7 and Simcoe cryo
-Giga Vermont IPA (conan)
-1.012 fg, 8% abv

View attachment 664894

Nice! 'Cept for the 9ers part of course. Go Chiefs!

 

[beervoid]

From your link:
“Sodium has no chemical effect; it contributes to the perceived flavor of beer by enhancing its sweetness. Levels from 75 to 150 ppm give a round smoothness and accentuate sweetness, which is most pleasant paired with chloride ions than when associated with sulfate ions. In the presence of sulfate, sodium creates an unpleasant harshness, so the rule of thumb is that the more sulfate in the water, the less sodium there should be (and vice versa).”

Seems like they are talking about much higher levels than we are.

Probably for most yeah. Any people here liking high sulfate in their neipa?
I really like the effect myself to give it another character. It doesnt necessarily transform it towards a westcoast ipa imho.