New England IPA "Northeast" style IPA

[Andre3000]

Hell yeah, man! Sweet! It looks like you can fit a good amount of hops in that chamber. A little extra money upfront is totally worth making every batch easier, quicker, and possibly better. What size valve is that, and have you tried it yet? How did the hops dump for you?

Possibly better? More like for sure better. It's all 3". I didn't try dumping any hops yet but I really can't see there being an issue with that size with pellet hops given the size / angle. I can't wait to try it. I just need to build a collar for my chamber and I'll be off to the races!

 

[Obese Chess]

Figure I'll ask this here, too - what is it about these that makes them so much more sensitive to oxygen than other beers that they can't be bottled? I'm mostly asking so I don't make that mistake with other beers I brew until I get a kegging setup.

 

[Dgallo]

Figure I'll ask this here, too - what is it about these that makes them so much more sensitive to oxygen than other beers that they can't be bottled? I'm mostly asking so I don't make that mistake with other beers I brew until I get a kegging setup.

The simple answer.... polyphenols and hop compounds. Both grains and hops contain polyphenols and they themselves can easily oxidize. In this style, the sheer amount of hops added are greatly increasing the amount of polyphenols is the final product which increase oxidation risk. Also the Hop compounds themselves are highly susceptible and oxidize easily. So the combination of that and the levels of both in this style is why.

 

[kevink]

Possibly better? More like for sure better.

Yeah, I know, based on every other way I have minimized or eliminated O2

 

[Obese Chess]

The simple answer.... polyphenols and hop compounds. Both grains and hops contain polyphenols and they themselves can easily oxidize. In this style, the sheer amount of hops added are greatly increasing the amount of polyphenols is the final product which increase oxidation risk. Also the Hop compounds themselves are highly susceptible and oxidize easily. So the combination of that and the levels of both in this style is why.

Got it. So throwing an ounce or so of dry hops into, say, a SMaSH wouldn't be a big deal, but once you get into, like, "six ounces of dry hops into wort from a 15-pound grain bill," that's when it starts to get messy. Do I have that right?

 

[VirginiaHops1]

If you believe Scott Janish(or rather believe the data he mines from studies), which a lot of people around here do, then manganese plays a huge role in oxidation. It is not removed during the brewing processes like some other heavy metals. Hops contain manganese, at various levels depending on the hop varietal. And flaked grains contain a lot more than malted grains.

 

[couchsending]

This “style” of beer is defined by hop intensity. The first thing to go when beer is exposed to excessive amounts of oxygen is Hop aroma, and flavor.

When IPA used to be defined by bitterness slight oxidation wasn’t as big of an issue. IPAs used to be loaded with hops at the beginning of the process. Now they’re loaded at the end of the process.

Plane and simple.

Any beer will benefit from reduced oxygen exposure but since these beers are dependent on the first thing to go when O2 is introduced it’s just more blatantly obvious.

 

[Eltes]

If you believe Scott Janish(or rather believe the data he mines from studies), which a lot of people around here do, then manganese plays a huge role in oxidation. It is not removed during the brewing processes like some other heavy metals. Hops contain manganese, at various levels depending on the hop varietal. And flaked grains contain a lot more than malted grains.

That's interesting. I've heard several times people talking about oxidized NEIPAs turning almost purple. In its most oxidized state (permanganate) manganese has a very strong purple color. Though I don't know what levels would be needed to produce a noticeable color in beer.

 

[Dgallo]

Got it. So throwing an ounce or so of dry hops into, say, a SMaSH wouldn't be a big deal, but once you get into, like, "six ounces of dry hops into wort from a 15-pound grain bill," that's when it starts to get messy. Do I have that right?

Yes and no. If you brewed the same 15lb grainbill for two beers, one used a total of 6oz of hops and one used 12oz, the 12oz beer would have a greater potential to oxidize, however if you improve your anti o2 practices you’ll be fine with either. I would say it’s very important to improve on than than worrying about how to limit your ingredients to limit your o2 pick up

 

[Obese Chess]

Okay so - naturally it's worth limiting oxygen exposure anyway, it's just that the more hops you add, and the later in the process you add them, the more obvious and unpleasant any oxygenation will be?

 

[Dgallo]

Okay so - naturally it's worth limiting oxygen exposure anyway, it's just that the more hops you add, and the later in the process you add them, the more obvious and unpleasant any oxygenation will be?

Yes. If you’re not purposely improving your process to minimize o2 than your bound for issues as you increase hops.

 

[VirginiaHops1]

That's interesting. I've heard several times people talking about oxidized NEIPAs turning almost purple. In its most oxidized state (permanganate) manganese has a very strong purple color. Though I don't know what levels would be needed to produce a noticeable color in beer.

Yeah, it is interesting. Obviously we basically know from anecdotal evidence and observation that more hops causes more oxidation problems and some people just want to leave it at that. But there are articles and studies out there actually looking at the science behind it. Janish is great because he puts them in cliff notes format for dopes like me who have a hard time getting through those papers. He said he mash hops at his brewery to potentially reduce manganese levels in his beers.

 

[Obese Chess]

Yes. If you’re not purposely improving your process to minimize o2 than your bound for issues as you increase hops.

Makes sense! I will not stress too much about this pale ale I'm thinking of making and its one ounce of dry hops, then.

Can't wait to have a real kegging setup and start cranking out some bigger beers, though.

 

[Hannabrew]

I water/sanitizer purge, quickly add the dry hops, and then quick purge and vent with CO2. I leave the dry hops in the keg and my beers are peak about 2-3 weeks after packaging. I like tinkering around with different ways of dry hopping these beers.

When I have spunded I try to transfer about .003 - .004 from expected FG. With ales it is really hard to catch it and if I miss it I just let it finish out, prime in the fermenter, wait for activity to start (20 mins) and then transfer it over.

I don't keg hop anymore nor do I spund this style but for what it's worth, when I did I would combine the two methods discussed above by water purging, quickly adding the hops (then a couple purges) a day or two prior to spund, and letting fermentation gas push out the rest of the O2. Yes the hops are at room temperature but in a mostly CO2 environment that should not really matter. I never got much hop aroma in the room I was doing this in so figured it was all staying in the keg fairly well.

 

[ihavenonickname]

I need help with my process...

After a handful of great neipa's, my last three have been total duds: bland hoppiness, slightly darker color, reduced haze and a belgiany sweetness. I’ll assume its an oxidation problem and hopefully not other issues aswell (?diastaticus, infection, crappy hops, poor yeast health?)

The last three junk hazys cold side process went like this:

• ferment in an an anvil brew bucket I modded to have a co2 capture thing (like cold crash gaurdian)
• dry hop 48-72 hours post pitch with 3-5oz of whole cone hops, gently stir the hops in to get saturated, purge headspace
• At FG (day 6-8) cold crash to 50F for 1-2 days with Co2 capture bag attached.
• Keg hops (2-4oz) added to keg and flushed with co2 a crap ton, like 8-10 times.
• closed transfer from anvil to keg using co2 to push from the top of the anvil (2-3 psi enough to hear the co2 leaking out of the anvil bucket), purge keg headspace.
• leave keg at room temp on the keg hops for 2-4 days then put in fridge and force carb for a week.

I thought my process was pretty well controlled, but my results have been so lackluster I’ve gotta change it up. Here are the best ideas I’ve collected. Please help with any better ideas!

• ferment in KEG all the way out
• crash yeast out with co2 at 2psi to 50F
• transfer off yeast using CBDS in the keg
• Dry hop in secondary keg with a janish dip tube filter (push out sanitizer with co2, quickly dump in 6oz pellets, purge keg again several times
• Dry hop with pellets only
• 2 days of dry hop time at 60F
• transfer to sanitizer purged serving keg

Other things I might try out:

• only use brand new hops
• avoid rolled oats -> switch to malted oats and wheat
• try some mash hops
• go back to the most typical dry hops like citra/galaxy

Please help out my process with any better ideas! I can’t stand to drink another one of my lousy IPAs

edit clarity

 

[VirginiaHops1]

If you'd never made any good beers this would be a lot harder to figure out. But you said you made a handful of great NEIPAs and then 3 bad ones. So what changed? If literally nothing in your process changed then I'd look at what changed with your ingredients. Why are you letting the keg sit at room temp for 2-4 days after kegging before refrigerating and carbing?

 

[ihavenonickname]

@VirginiaHops1 - What changed is I made a 4lb order of hops from YVH - all whole cone. I've been using those in my last 5 beers - the three that were heavily dry hopped have sucked to varying degrees.

So one easy explanation is that stirring in whole cone dry hops on day 2 of fermentation is oxidating the crap out of the beer. Which is my best guess so far... but when you look into whole cone hops you see lots of people making great beers with whole cones and an exbeeriment where tasters preferred the beer dry hopped with whole cones... what gives?!

I've been letting the beer sit on the dry hops in the keg at room temp for 2-4 days for dry hop saturation. I haven't found a consensus on the ideal duration for whole cones.

 

[Hannabrew]

My thoughts

1) if it's taking 48 hours for yeast activity I'd question your yeast health.

2) whole hops are naturally going to introduce a bunch of O2 into the beer however it's during active fermentation which leads me to...

3) you're scrubbing away all your hop aroma/ flavor by adding it with way too much extract remaining. Wait until there's only a few points remaining to add your first DH

4) if you've already crashed the yeast there's no reason to keep it warm once kegged (unless you want more warm DH extraction and even then go a day or two tops)

My advice

1) use whole hops in the whirlpool and only pellet/cryo cold side

2) reverse your ratios for first/second DH so your post fermentation DH is the majority.

3) consider doing that DH in your primary and racking off it quickly as extended periods in contact with a ton of hops can have negative effects.

4) Make sure your yeast are healthy and plentiful and your controlling temperatures properly

 

[ihavenonickname]

My thoughts

1) yeast health.
2) whole hops O2...
3) Wait until there's only a few points remaining to add your first DH
4) (unless you want more warm DH extraction and even then go a day or two tops)

My advice
1) only pellet/cryo cold side
2) post fermentation DH is the majority.
3) 2nd DH in your primary and racking off it quickly
4)yeast are health and temp

Really appreciate the feedback:
- I’ve been pitching from a fresh imperial bag and fermentation activity starts by 24 hours, And I reach expected FG fine. So I think my yeast are at least ok, but hey might as well make a starter for the next one to help.
- I’ve been doing mid fermentation dry hop to reduce risk of oxidation, which comes at the expense of aroma but yeah I’m trying to reduce oxidation! So adding dry hops at the tail end of fermentation by opening the lid of primary seems like a big o2 risk to me... but hey if people are getting good results that way I should go back to it. Although I think I could have less o2 exposure by closed transferring to a secondary keg dry hop and transferring off to a serving keg.
3)definitely need to stop dry hopping with whole cones

Thanks so much! The timing of early vs late dry hop and doing that before or after crashing out yeast seems to be a complex topic without much consensus, so I’m still boggled by what would be best with our typical equipment.

I hope this (painfully) detailed discussion on techniques is helpful to others out there.

 

[VirginiaHops1]

@VirginiaHops1 - What changed is I made a 4lb order of hops from YVH - all whole cone. I've been using those in my last 5 beers - the three that were heavily dry hopped have sucked to varying degrees.

So one easy explanation is that stirring in whole cone dry hops on day 2 of fermentation is oxidating the crap out of the beer. Which is my best guess so far... but when you look into whole cone hops you see lots of people making great beers with whole cones and an exbeeriment where tasters preferred the beer dry hopped with whole cones... what gives?!

I've been letting the beer sit on the dry hops in the keg at room temp for 2-4 days for dry hop saturation. I haven't found a consensus on the ideal duration for whole cones.

I think the whole cones are your issue. If you want to dry hop with them try dry hopping cooler and then transferring off the hops into the serving keg. If that doesn't help then stop dry hopping with them altogether. Just my 2 cents

 

[couchsending]

If you want to use the whole cone hops and not waste a metric ton of Co2.

Don’t add hops during fermentation, again it’s a waste and can do more damage than good IMHO. Add Other Half to the long list of breweries that produce this style that don’t add hops during fermentation.

Add the hops to a keg at the start of fermentation and use the entire length of fermentation to purge the keg. Use the dip tube screen that Scott Janish made popular. You can soft crash before transfer or just transfer after you hit FG. If you soft crash you can get away with using less hops as there is less yeast in suspension for hop oils to stick to and get pulled out of the beer. Hit the keg with 30 psi to make sure it seals or stays somewhat sealed or keep making sure you hit it with some Co2. Leave it at room temp (I prefer closer to 60 personally) for two days then crash for two days and transfer off the hops into a well purged serving keg.

If you think the hops will get oxidized in that short period of time that the fermentation is purging the keg then you’d have to do 12 full purges at 30 psi which is a lot of Co2.

That being said save the whole hops for the whirlpool or get a hopback. I’ve been using whole cone hops (bought 5lbs through Hops Direct for $2-$3lb and they send you 1.5lbs instead of 1) in a hop back for maybe the last 10 hoppy beer I’ve made and do enjoy the complexity it seems to add. I’ll whirlpool with a smaller amount of hops and then run the wort through the hopback at less than 175 on it’s way to the CFC.

There is a lot of research out there that shows that a lot of the compounds that do get “biotransformed” are actually in the leaf material instead of the lupulin glands so adding whole leaf hops in the process can add certain flavors/aromas that pellets can’t. Personally I’m waiting for YCH to actually release the American Noble versions of mosaic/Citra etc. They are the byproduct of cryo production and contain virtually no alpha acids just bracht material.

 

[MaCheFai]

My last batch I brewed with 20% flaked barely. Today marks 3 weeks. I’m really happy with the mouthfeel eel and body results. Almost slick like malted oats but great head retention. Anyone else use flaked barley recently?View attachment 636156

Sorry to dig up an old post, but would you mind sharing your recipe on this one? I know it's in the sun and all, but the color and body on this looks perfect! Aside from the large % flaked barley you used, I'm curious to hear what else went into it!

 

[Dgallo]

Sorry to dig up an old post, but would you mind sharing your recipe on this one? I know it's in the sun and all, but the color and body on this looks perfect! Aside from the large % flaked barley you used, I'm curious to hear what else went into it!

Thanks brother. It was ;
12lb - 2row
3lb - Flaked Barley
.25lb - honey malt

Ran with Imperial A24

 

[Cavpilot2000]

I'll agree that whole hops are likely the problem.
Compare their structure to pellets - tons of space in the nooks and crannies for air bubbles to hide among the leaves - they are physically carrying more air (therefore oxygen) into the wort than pellets do.

Second, to get faster yeast activity, a starter might help, but a vitality starter will help more. 24 hours lag is acceptable to a lot of homebrewers, but IMHO way too long for any beer, much less a hops-heavy beer where reducing oxidation is critical.

If I don't have bubbles pushing out my airlock within 6 hours post-pitch (yes, even for lagers), I consider that too much lag. I attribute that to a sufficient amount of good healthy yeast, a good yeast environment, and vitality starters.

 

[ihavenonickname]

Ah ha moment! Whoa thats a big deal I hadn’t realized! So my whirlpool hops are getting oxidized when sitting in the fermenter waiting for the yeast to get going! So yes the yeast will scrub O2 but the oxidation damage has already been done in that lag time. I only considered my dry hops to be culprits.

So, a practice I think I must eliminate chilling wort to ~90 because of my warm summer tap water, chilling to pitch temps in my chamber overnight, and pitch a pack of yeast in the morning. That leaving like 24 hours or more for my whirlpool hops to get oxidized. I should be immediately chilling all the way to pitching temp and pitching a very active starter. That will will minimize the window my whirlpool hops get oxidized.

 

[Dgallo]

Ah ha moment! Whoa thats a big deal I hadn’t realized! So my whirlpool hops are getting oxidized when sitting in the fermenter waiting for the yeast to get going! So yes the yeast will scrub O2 but the oxidation damage has already been done in that lag time. I only considered my dry hops to be culprits.

Precisely! That’s what I was trying to get at in my post this past week about the difference between oxidation and oxygen ingest. Yeast will certainly consume ingested oxygen when active, aka scrub, but oxidation will occur to some degree regardless. So the longer the lag time and/or the amount of oxygen getting in will determine the extent to how detrimental the oxidation will be

 

[SRJHops]

Question/advice needed on extraction rates from bagged dry hops:

While I would rather go commando, I really need to bag my dry hops using my current process. Given that, how bad is extraction via bags? (I use 1 ounce per bag.) Should I double the dry hops? Would 8-10 ounces of cryo do the trick?

 

[ihavenonickname]

Precisely! That’s what I was trying to get at in my post this past week about the difference between oxidation and oxygen ingest. Yeast will certainly consume ingested oxygen when active, aka scrub, but oxidation will occur to some degree regardless. So the longer the lag time and/or the amount of oxygen getting in will determine the extent to how detrimental the oxidation will be

Yes you were saying that already! And it made sense but I hadn’t put the two together (with the lag time till yeast were active.) You hear people say all the time that oxygenating the wort wont cause oxidation bc it will get scrubbed out (and they write it off like they do to those hot side oxidation nuts)... and yes it will but oxidation is probably occurring immediately, it’s just for a short enough time it’s not detrimental. I think the duration is a big deal.

This could be why Kimmich always says he wishes he could chill faster (I thought it just had to do with whirlpool extraction and volatility of hop oils). And this gives SOME validity to the hot side oxidation cult. Have I gone too far?

Edit proofreading

 

[isomerization]

Ah ha moment! Whoa thats a big deal I hadn’t realized! So my whirlpool hops are getting oxidized when sitting in the fermenter waiting for the yeast to get going! So yes the yeast will scrub O2 but the oxidation damage has already been done in that lag time. I only considered my dry hops to be culprits.

So, a practice I think I must eliminate chilling wort to ~90 because of my warm summer tap water, chilling to pitch temps in my chamber overnight, and pitch a pack of yeast in the morning. That leaving like 24 hours or more for my whirlpool hops to get oxidized. I should be immediately chilling all the way to pitching temp and pitching a very active starter. That will will minimize the window my whirlpool hops get oxidized.

Pitching in the mid-80s (even with lager yeast), then actively cooling to initial ferm temp works well for me.

Yes you were saying that already! And it made sense but I hadn’t put the two together (with the lag time till yeast were active.) You hear people say all the time that oxygenating the wort wont cause oxidation bc it will get scrubbed out (and they write it off like they do to those hot side oxidation nuts)... and yes it will but oxidation is probably occurring immediately, it’s just for a short enough time it’s not detrimental. I think the duration is a big deal.

This could be why Kimmich always says he wishes he could chill faster (I thought it just had to do with whirlpool extraction and volatility of hop oils). And this gives SOME validity to the hot side oxidation cult. Have I gone too far?

Edit proofreading

See above, pitch the yeast and continue chilling.

Question/advice needed on extraction rates from bagged dry hops:

While I would rather go commando, I really need to bag my dry hops using my current process. Given that, how bad is extraction via bags? (I use 1 ounce per bag.) Should I double the dry hops? Would 8-10 ounces of cryo do the trick?

Have you tried 1 gallon nylon paint strainer bags? 3-4 oz have plenty of room to swell in those (what I use for keg hopping).

 

[SRJHops]

Pitching in the mid-80s (even with lager yeast), then actively cooling to initial ferm temp works well for me.



See above, pitch the yeast and continue chilling.



Have you tried 1 gallon nylon paint strainer bags? 3-4 oz have plenty of room to swell in those (what I use for keg hopping).

I used the gallon paint strainers for my current brew, but the aroma and flavor really seems to have suffered compared to tossing 'em in freely. So thinking maybe I need to really increase the amounts...