New England IPA "Northeast" style IPA

[leesmith]

Again...slightly dated info
Again... slightly dated

Screenshot from this video:

Same textbook pictured in the screenshot is quoted in the article. Except Shaun only has the more outdated 3rd edition there.

 

[leesmith]

So since I used a wort chiller, this could certainly be happening without me aiming for it. Since I’ve never had an issue here, I haven’t researched it but from your article it would make sense that I’m Obtaining this cold break on top of the hot break.

The article discusses the optimal separation of cold break, which does not happen at pitching temperatures. 5c (41f) it states. That’s why the author puts his wort in the freezer for 45 min before transferring to the fermentor once it’s reached 40 f. I’m not obtaining a proper cold break separation with my immersion chiller AND waiting an hour because I’m not chilling cold enough as I can only reach 60f. So I doubt you are too unless your getting the ale that cold.

They also mention fermentation will drop additional polyphenol. So this would be by itself little impact in final beer. When I’m discussing excess hopping I’m talking about folks who dry hop at a 1.5-2oz per gallon which some articles promote, which I totally disagree with through actual practice. Just like the article you posted before https://www.researchgate.net/profil...rofiles-of-beer.pdf?origin=publication_detail showed that 1oz/gallon was the ideal dryhop range. For those who don’t use mesh bags this could be closer to .7-.8oz/gal. This leads me to what I have found in my own experience that increased dryhopping rates can lead to quicker degrade and increased oxidation issues.

I understand what your saying, but I also think more research with different hop varieties would be nessasary to get specific data per variety in order to recommend hopping rates. An ounce of Amarillo is not the same as an ounce of Galaxy. It’s hard to not get grassy/tea like flavors from Amarillo at higher dosage rates as opposed to Galaxy....at least from my experience. From the research, they learned Cascade should be dry hopped at a rate of no more than 1-1.5 oz per gallon in order to avoid herbal/tea like aromas vs. citrus aromas.

 

[Hannabrew]

Again...slightly dated info
Again... slightly dated

Dated as in how? Just because something was written a while ago doesn't necessarily mean it's dated or incorrect. What has superseded this research (and please don't send xbrmt links)?

 

[Hannabrew]

The article discusses the optimal separation of cold break, which does not happen at pitching temperatures. 5c (41f) it states. That’s why the author puts his wort in the freezer for 45 min before transferring to the fermentor once it’s reached 40 f. I’m not obtaining a proper cold break separation with my immersion chiller AND waiting an hour because I’m not chilling cold enough as I can only reach 60f. So I doubt you are too unless your getting the ale that cold.

Yeah I also don't chill all the way down to 40...I just use kettle finings, chill as low as I can while whirlpooling, and then let rest for 45-60 minutes before racking. My only point was simply that there will be a slight negative impact to your beer if you leave out kettle finings (unless you're separating break material some other way). Whether or not you care about that is up to you. I just don't see why you would purposely leave them out...what benefit are you getting other than cost savings?

 

[Dgallo]

I just don't see why you would purposely leave them out...what benefit are you getting other than cost savings?

I can only speak for myself and why I will not use fining for NE IPAs. Simply put, I am aiming to have more proteins in my beer. For both body and mouthfeel as well as appearance. I want this thing to be hazy and I want it to be full bodied but soft at the same time. I achieve this through an increased protein grainbill, mash temps, and water.

 

[BrewCityBaller]

Kegged yesterday using a closed transfer technique I first saw in this thread. Much more effective than how I used to do it. Hydro sample was gorgeous and the aroma was off the charts. Imperial Juice yeast seemed to do the trick. Can’t wait to sample in a few days.

 

[SRJHops]

Another issue people overlook is yeast health and letting your yeast finish and clean up at warmer temps.

Dgallo, I'm sure you've posted it somewhere, but could you remind me of your preferred yeast temps and timing? (I know all yeasts are different, but is there a rule of thumb?)

For my current batch I am using Safale-04, which lists the optimal fermentation range as 64 - 75. I fermented for 1 week at 67, then I raised it to 72 for the final week. I am wondering about those temps, and if I should have raised the temp sooner? Thanks!

 

[Hannabrew]

I can only speak for myself and why I will not use fining for NE IPAs. Simply put, I am aiming to have more proteins in my beer. For both body and mouthfeel as well as appearance. I want this thing to be hazy and I want it to be full bodied but soft at the same time. I achieve this through an increased protein grainbill, mash temps, and water.

I use finings and never have an issue with the NEIPAs looking the part. They're not murky but have a nice haze similar to TH. I don't think the finings have enough umph to remove enough of the wheat/oats that you're purposely adding to the grain bill to make a difference. They will however clean up a good majority of the stuff you don't want (break material).

But again, if you've got a process that works for you, then stick with it!

 

[Dgallo]

Dgallo, I'm sure you've posted it somewhere, but could you remind me of your preferred yeast temps and timing? (I know all yeasts are different, but is there a rule of thumb?)

For my current batch I am using Safale-04, which lists the optimal fermentation range as 64 - 75. I fermented for 1 week at 67, then I raised it to 72 for the final week. I am wondering about those temps, and if I should have raised the temp sooner? Thanks!

fermentation temps in general are yeast specific. Same goes for ester production. Some strains produce more than others. US-04 wouldnt be my first pick for this style due to its higher flocculation rate, but it still will work fine. From my experience using it, it doesn’t produce a huge ester profile but it does lean to fruity.

Now for strains such as London ale III and imperials dryhop, For greater ester production you are looking to be on the higher end of the range just after the climax of active fermentation and above 70 for the rest/cleanup. I would pitch at 67-68. Let it climb to 70-72 for first 2-3 days then let it rise to 74-76 for 2/3 days. Then let it sit and clean up around 70-72. This driving really elevates the ester production for the two strains I’ve mentioned.

 

[SRJHops]

fermentation temps in general are yeast specific. Same goes for ester production. Some strains produce more than others. US-04 wouldnt be my first pick for this style do to its higher flocculation rate. From my experience it doesn’t produce a huge ester profile but it does lean to fruity.

Now for strains such as London ale III and imperials dryhop, For greater ester production you are looking to be on the higher end of the range just after the climax of active fermentation and above 70 for the rest/cleanup. I would pitch at 67-68. Let it climb to 70-72 for first 2-3 days then let it rise to 74-76 for 2/3 days. Let let it sit and clean up around 70-72. This driving really elevates the ester production for the two strains I’ve mentioned.

Yeah, I'm going to move to a new yeast (Juice or III) for the next batch, but 04 has been a good yeast for dialing in my procedures, and I've been pleased with how easy it is to use. (I've never had Treehouse Julius, but I think they use Safale-04, FWIW.)

In the winter I can't let the temp rise -- I have to turn up the heat on the fermentation temp controller. So, if I pitch/start fermentation at 67, do you think I should I turn it up to 70-72 the next morning (when it is actively fermenting)? Or should I wait until Day 2 to turn it up? Thanks for the advice - much appreciated!

 

[Dgallo]

Yeah, I'm going to move to a new yeast (Juice or III) for the next batch, but 04 has been a good yeast for dialing in my procedures, and I've been pleased with how easy it is to use. (I've never had Treehouse Julius, but I think they use Safale-04, FWIW.)

In the winter I can't let the temp rise -- I have to turn up the heat on the fermentation temp controller. So, if I pitch/start fermentation at 67, do you think I should I turn it up to 70-72 the next morning (when it is actively fermenting)? Or should I wait until Day 2 to turn it up? Thanks for the advice - much appreciated!

Most likely the fermentation itself will warm It up to 70-72. May even get you to 74ish, all depends on the ambient room temp. It’s gunna take some practice and understanding of How much rise you’ll get just through fermentation Alone and how you’ll be able to warm it through the temp control but through experience you'll get a feel for the timing that works for you and your equipment.

 

[SRJHops]

Most likely the fermentation itself will warm It up to 70-72. May even get you to 74ish, all depends on the ambient room temp. It’s gunna take some practice and understanding of How much rise you’ll get just through fermentation Alone and how you’ll be able to warm it through the temp control but through experience you'll get a feel for the timing that works for you and your equipment.

That is true in the summer, for sure, when the room temp is mid 60's. But it might hit -30 below outside on Wednesday night, so I'm guessing the ambient room temp might dip to 50 or lower! The good news is the fermentation temp controller will keep the beer nice and warm.

But your point is well taken. Peak fermentation for 04 seems to be done in just 2-3 days, so I think that's when I should be turning up the heat to that first target, rather than waiting a week like I did this last time. Thanks again.

 

[Dgallo]

@SRJHops Just be careful. Fermentation alone should cause a temp rise inside the fermenter of 6-8•f. So you may not want to set it at 70 because you’ll end up getting 78 during active fermentation. Just something to keep in mind.

 

[SRJHops]

@SRJHops Just be careful. Fermentation alone should cause a temp rise inside the fermenter of 6-8•f. So you may not want to set it at 70 because you’ll end up getting 78 during active fermentation. Just something to keep in mind.

Thanks. The fermentation controller has a probe that goes into the actual wort/beer, so it will keep it whatever temp I set it at, plus or minus 1 degree. So I think I am safe in the winter to dial up the temps. But for sure I will watch it in the summer months.

 

[marchuk96]

Thanks. The fermentation controller has a probe that goes into the actual wort/beer, so it will keep it whatever temp I set it at, plus or minus 1 degree. So I think I am safe in the winter to dial up the temps. But for sure I will watch it in the summer months.

I typically just let my beer free rise from around a 68-70 degree pitch temp...my ambient room temp is about 68-70 ...my last beer during the first 2 days rose all the way up to near 78 degrees in this environment..this was a bit more aggresive of a rise than i have had in the past..i used juice ...which is a fantastic yeast f.y.i....and its max temp range is 74 but didn't really experience any major faults from this happening...thankfully it was forgiving...lots of great esters for sure...but like dgallo said and from my experience...just be aware that u can get up to a 10 degree jump in those initial 2 days and obviously it is also yeast dependent...cheers!!

 

[marchuk96]

View attachment 609577View attachment 609578

Kegged yesterday using a closed transfer technique I first saw in this thread. Much more effective than how I used to do it. Hydro sample was gorgeous and the aroma was off the charts. Imperial Juice yeast seemed to do the trick. Can’t wait to sample in a few days.

Looks banging!!! Send me some!!!!

 

[marchuk96]

Dated as in how? Just because something was written a while ago doesn't necessarily mean it's dated or incorrect. What has superseded this research (and please don't send xbrmt links)?

Lol...OK...I'm just saying things do change over time...and while some old findings may still hold truth today others have fallen to the way side.. And what works for some may not neccesarily work for others...While I don't have any readings to throw out there..I'm only speaking from experience with my own brews...cheers

 

[Dgallo]

Thanks. The fermentation controller has a probe that goes into the actual wort/beer, so it will keep it whatever temp I set it at, plus or minus 1 degree. So I think I am safe in the winter to dial up the temps. But for sure I will watch it in the summer months.

So the prob that goes into your wort is both a heating and cooling element? Or do you ferment in a temp control chamber that can heat and cool; and the prob reads the temp of the wort and kicks on whatever unit is needed at the time?

 

[SRJHops]

So the prob that goes into your wort is both a heating and cooling element? Or do you ferment in a temp control chamber that can heat and cool; and the prob reads the temp of the wort and kicks on whatever unit is needed at the time?

It can only heat. It's just a temp controller (with wort probe) that is attached to a heating pad that I tape around the carboy. Nothing too fancy, but it makes it possible to make ales in the winter in my cold basement. Otherwise it would have to be lagers! New England Lager anyone?!

 

[Hannabrew]

I totally get if you have a process that works for you then go for it. It's when the advice is given to others as if there is no consequence that I feel the need to play devil's advocate and give the other side.

This particular subject strikes a nerve with me as I hear so many folks trying to brew NEIPAs where their primary focus is The Haze (or in most cases The Murk). The goal is a tasty beer; the haze is a consequence of of the ingredients/yeast choice and possibly the timing of the dry hopping.

In my limited brewing experience, I've seen so much misinformation on forums that I stick to actual research (not xbmts) and written books with solid references. IMO just because a NEIPA looks a bit different than other beers, doesn't mean that traditional tried and true brewing practices shouldn't be followed.

OTOH, people have different goals and what matters to one may not matter at all to another. Sh!t, half the new breweries I go to these days have ZERO head retention and they could care less...why would they as their taprooms are packed. Stability? Who cares, the beer will be gone in a week. So for that reason, I say do whatever works for you...just don't say that universally agreed upon literature doesn't apply just because.

 

[Dgallo]

It can only heat. It's just a temp controller (with wort probe) that is attached to a heating pad that I tape around the carboy. Nothing too fancy, but it makes it possible to make ales in the winter in my cold basement. Otherwise it would have to be lagers! New England Lager anyone?!

Ok gotcha. But yeah Jack’s Abbey Craft lagers in MA is famous for making beautiful IPL’s. I’d say go for it. They really show case the hops

 

[SRJHops]

I totally get if you have a process that works for you then go for it. It's when the advice is given to others as if there is no consequence that I feel the need to play devil's advocate and give the other side.

This particular subject strikes a nerve with me as I hear so many folks trying to brew NEIPAs where their primary focus is The Haze (or in most cases The Murk). The goal is a tasty beer; the haze is a consequence of of the ingredients/yeast choice and possibly the timing of the dry hopping.

In my limited brewing experience, I've seen so much misinformation on forums that I stick to actual research (not xbmts) and written books with solid references. IMO just because a NEIPA looks a bit different than other beers, doesn't mean that traditional tried and true brewing practices shouldn't be followed.

OTOH, people have different goals and what matters to one may not matter at all to another. Sh!t, half the new breweries I go to these days have ZERO head retention and they could care less...why would they as their taprooms are packed. Stability? Who cares, the beer will be gone in a week. So for that reason, I say do whatever works for you...just don't say that universally agreed upon literature doesn't apply just because.

Can't disagree with anything you've written... But I will say that most of the brewing books I've read don't cover these advanced and/or emerging brewing topics. Heck, most still say to transfer to secondary and don't even mention oxidation. Can you recommend any new advanced brewing books? Somebody must be writing a NEIPA book, right?!

There's a joke in here somewhere, but if you ask 10 homebrewers about the best way to brew NEIPA's you'll get 10 different answers. I think the key is to consider it all, try it yourself, and keep adding the techniques that work...

I do appreciate hearing the other side of most discussions, so keep up the devil's advocate role!

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Scott Janish has a "science" book at the proofing stage - The New IPA or something like that - which should be out in a couple of months and should hopefully be the book you're looking for.

 

[leesmith]

Can't disagree with anything you've written... But I will say that most of the brewing books I've read don't cover these advanced and/or emerging brewing topics. Heck, most still say to transfer to secondary and don't even mention oxidation. Can you recommend any new advanced brewing books? Somebody must be writing a NEIPA book, right?!

There's a joke in here somewhere, but if you ask 10 homebrewers about the best way to brew NEIPA's you'll get 10 different answers. I think the key is to consider it all, try it yourself, and keep adding the techniques that work...

I do appreciate hearing the other side of most discussions, so keep up the devil's advocate role!

I agree also.

My homebrew career started right around the same time these hazy beers started getting popular. Heady Topper was this new exciting beer people were waiting in line for...at the time Kate the Great was a stout people lined up for in Portsmouth New Hampshire....other than that and maybe Pliney caused people to be so fanatic. Now look at the lines everywhere.

So for me...it’s gone from a landscape of very little information to information overload on how to brew this style. We are so lucky to live at a time to see the evolution of this.

These discussions are great and sometimes seem heated but really I think most of us involved in these forums can get around that and concentrate on the focus of brewing the best possible beer and sharing those techniques and ideas to do so.

This book seems to be quite a hit with serious brewers and homebrewers alike and wish I could afford it:

Technology Brewing & Malting https://www.amazon.com/dp/3921690773/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

*Edit...The book is available other places for much cheeper.

 

[drez77]

Somebody must be writing a NEIPA book, right?!

Scott Janish has one coming out. https://scottjanish.com/book-update/

ETA - I should have read further

 

[Hannabrew]

I agree also.

My homebrew career started right around the same time these hazy beers started getting popular. Heady Topper was this new exciting beer people were waiting in line for...at the time Kate the Great was a stout people lined up for in Portsmouth New Hampshire....other than that and maybe Pliney caused people to be so fanatic. Now look at the lines everywhere.

So for me...it’s gone from a landscape of very little information to information overload on how to brew this style. We are so lucky to live at a time to see the evolution of this.

These discussions are great and sometimes seem heated but really I think most of us involved in these forums can get around that and concentrate on the focus of brewing the best possible beer and sharing those techniques and ideas to do so.

This book seems to be quite a hit with serious brewers and homebrewers alike and wish I could afford it:

Technology Brewing & Malting https://www.amazon.com/dp/3921690773/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

*Edit...The book is available other places for much cheeper.

Read the Lowoxygenbrewing blogs/forums as they have basically done the hard work for us in a) aquiring and reading all the vital textbooks and other references and more importantly b) distilling it into the important things we can do at the homebrew level

Even if you don't agree that hot side oxidation is a concern, everything else is undisputed professional brewing techniques

The thing I love about those forums is everything is backed by actual professional research and references. Whether or not you want to go to that length is up to you but at least you know the gold standard and you can decide how close you want to get.

Most everywhere else is a lot of opinions with one person's observations to back them up.

 

[leesmith]

Read the Lowoxygenbrewing blogs/forums as they have basically done the hard work for us in a) aquiring and reading all the vital textbooks and other references and more importantly b) distilling it into the important things we can do at the homebrew level

Even if you don't agree that hot side oxidation is a concern, everything else is undisputed professional brewing techniques

The thing I love about those forums is everything is backed by actual professional research and references. Whether or not you want to go to that length is up to you but at least you know the gold standard and you can decide how close you want to get.

Most everywhere else is a lot of opinions with one person's observations to back them up.

I’ve been reading over those forums and the blog for some time now. Solid stuff there which has caused me to slow down on making assumptions.

As I understand it, hot side oxidation exits. Big breweries aren’t as susceptible to it as homebrewers due to sheer volume and surface area. I’m sure if there was a darling style of beer that the homebrew community focused on other then IPA’s such as Pilsners, the focus of keeping low oxygen on the hot side would be less taboo. A few years ago the popular opinion amongst home brewers was very lax towards the cold side effects of low oxygen. Now, beside very beginners, home brewers frequently mention they do closed transfers or purge their lines and such.

The forum was created because they got so tired of being severely criticized and questioned about their practices. I wish that the Homebrewtalk community was a little more open in this regard.

Anyways...I’d still like to get my hands on a copy of Kunze.

 

[Dgallo]

The forum was created because they got so tired of being severely criticized and questioned about their practices. I wish that the Homebrewtalk community was a little more open in this regard.

I concur. I know I’m guilty myself of this from time to time, just ask my wife how stubborn I can be lol. but like you said we all need to be slightly more open, my self included. However, I believe everyone truly does mean well and are confident and happy with the beers they are producing with their own process. They are speaking their truth, whether it’s evidence based or annecdotal through their experience. I wish we all could just trade our beers and have a real conversation about it.

For example, @ttuato sent me one of his beers that I got yesterday. We exchanged numbers and got to have a conversation on my review, discussion of practices and just talked a little about beer in general. I sent him one out and I’m sure the conversation will happen again once he receives it. As simple as this may have been, got me thinking about how we really are a small community of folks that all have similar appreciations and ambitions. The more open we are, the more we can learn.

 

[leesmith]

Shellhammer got back to me today.

They used these bags in the dry hopping experiment:

https://www.ecobags.com/Organic-Cloth-Sack-large?sc=2&category=35

Link to study:
https://www.researchgate.net/profil...rofiles-of-beer.pdf?origin=publication_detail

I got to admit those bags don’t look that permeable.

*Edit...And one more question. How much of the hop oils get absorbed by a bag like that and not dispersed in the liquid?

 

[marchuk96]

Shellhammer got back to me today.

They used these bags in the dry hopping experiment:

https://www.ecobags.com/Organic-Cloth-Sack-large?sc=2&category=35

Link to study:
https://www.researchgate.net/profil...rofiles-of-beer.pdf?origin=publication_detail

I got to admit those bags don’t look that permeable.

*Edit...And one more question. How much of the hop oils get absorbed by a bag like that and not dispersed in the liquid?

My god!! I can't see much of anything soaking threw those bags...there has to be a huge amounts of oil getting trapped in that thing...yikes!!

 

[Dgallo]

My god!! I can't see much of anything soaking threw those bags...there has to be a huge amounts of oil getting trapped in that thing...yikes!!

Definitely. Goes against the whole correlation between surface area and extraction. As surface area increases so does extraction.

 

[leesmith]

Definitely. Goes against the whole correlation between surface area and extraction. As surface area increases so does extraction.

And my thought is that the bag most likely absorbs more oil based than water based substances...causing a greater ratio of chlorophyll and tannins from the leafy material in the beer....and then tea/herbal notes in the finished product....especially at higher dosage rates.

Just a theory.

 

[Dgallo]

And my thought is that the bag most likely absorbs more oil based than water based substances...causing a greater ratio of chlorophyll and tannins from the leafy material. And more tea/herbal notes in the finished product especially at higher dosage rates.

Just a theory.

I would get behind that too. Being a organic cloth bag I would assume a portion of the oils would be absorbed by it

 

[BrewCityBaller]

Somewhat on topic here: If you use loose hops while dryhopping, how do you keep hop matter from making its way into the keg?

I am using a SS Brew Bucket and always use a stainless steel mesh tube to hold hops because I fear if I don't the dip tube will clog or hop matter will make it into the keg.

 

[plazola86]

I used to use a bag now I use a SS hop filter since I have a plate chiller but I always squeezed the bag to get all that hoppy goodness out of it. It is literally hop juice that you don't even get from throwing them straight in the kettle. Even with my SS filter I strain as much "hop juice" out of it as I can by shaking it and bouncing the hops around. Just makes since to me NOT to leave all that behind.

 

[BrewCityBaller]

I used to use a bag now I use a SS hop filter since I have a plate chiller but I always squeezed the bag to get all that hoppy goodness out of it. It is literally hop juice that you don't even get from throwing them straight in the kettle. Even with my SS filter I strain as much "hop juice" out of it as I can by shaking it and bouncing the hops around. Just makes since to me NOT to leave all that behind.

That sounds like you are talking about steeping/flameout hops, no? I am concerned about dry hopping in the fermentation vessel. Opening it up to squeeze out a hop bag would be a big O2 no no.

 

[plazola86]

Somewhat on topic here: If you use loose hops while dryhopping, how do you keep hop matter from making its way into the keg?

I am using a SS Brew Bucket and always use a stainless steel mesh tube to hold hops because I fear if I don't the dip tube will clog or hop matter will make it into the keg.

This is my kegging set up. Push beer under pressure - filter - into CO2 purged keg. These filters are pretty small so a cold crash is needed. I tried using this recently with no cold crash, had 12 oz in the dry hop clogged twice. Gave up on it, transferred it with a hose and gravity. Then my keg post clogged twice, then my tap before I finally gave up and dumped the beer. live and learn

 

[plazola86]

That sounds like you are talking about steeping/flameout hops, no? I am concerned about dry hopping in the fermentation vessel. Opening it up to squeeze out a hop bag would be a big O2 no no.

Yeah I was talking about the hot side hops being bagged lol bad timing

 

[Dgallo]

Somewhat on topic here: If you use loose hops while dryhopping, how do you keep hop matter from making its way into the keg?

I am using a SS Brew Bucket and always use a stainless steel mesh tube to hold hops because I fear if I don't the dip tube will clog or hop matter will make it into the keg.

Try cold crashing w/o oxygen exposure. I dry hop loose 2-3 days before kegging and cold crash for 16-24 hours and almost all hop material drops out. Every so often a little gets in the keg but being on 10-12 psi, never an issue

 

[BrewCityBaller]

Try cold crashing w/o oxygen exposure. I dry hop loose 2-3 days before kegging and cold crash for 16-24 hours and almost all hop material drops out. Every so often a little gets in the keg but being on 10-12 psi, never an issue

Follow up question then: how are you cold crashing without O2 exposure?