New England IPA "Northeast" style IPA

[leesmith]

L.O.D.O... Y.O.L.O.!!
Don't think I'm sold on the whole idea...I'm a believer of post wort oxidation but before that...I'm skeptical...

http://brulosophy.com/2017/04/10/th...ow-oxygen-brewing-method-exbeeriment-results/

While yielding a difference...it seemed the majority found it undesirable

Yeah...I don’t practice it but have read up on it a little.

I like Bitburger a lot and they are LODO. But that’s the only LODO beer I know of that I’ve had. It certainly stands out compared to domestic Pilsners I’ve had.

 

[aaron_m]

I've been following this thread for a while and have probably read most of it by now. I've been brewing for a while but NEIPA is a new style for me. I've put together a recipe from what I've read in this thread but am starting to make myself crazy trying to figure out the hop schedule. Especially when I started trying to determine IBUs I'll get from whirlpooling.

I was going to just follow Braufessor's most recent edit to the recipe (6 oz whirlpool and 6 oz dryhop) but I keep going back and forth on whether I should add any hops during the boil.

I have plenty of Citra, Mosaic and El Dorado that I can use for this recipe.
Would anyone like to recommend a hop schedule for me?
should I do 1:1:1? should I skip the boil additions? I don't want it to be cloying but not super bitter either.

 

[Dgallo]

I've been following this thread for a while and have probably read most of it by now. I've been brewing for a while but NEIPA is a new style for me. I've put together a recipe from what I've read in this thread but am starting to make myself crazy trying to figure out the hop schedule. Especially when I started trying to determine IBUs I'll get from whirlpooling.

I was going to just follow Braufessor's most recent edit to the recipe (6 oz whirlpool and 6 oz dryhop) but I keep going back and forth on whether I should add any hops during the boil.

I have plenty of Citra, Mosaic and El Dorado that I can use for this recipe.
Would anyone like to recommend a hop schedule for me?
should I do 1:1:1? should I skip the boil additions? I don't want it to be cloying but not super bitter either.

I’m a firm believe in having boil additions. I typically still use 30% of my hops from 20 mins to flame out. This builds the complexity IMO. Then a 150 f whirlpool. Higher hopstand temps are where most ppl go wrong and pick up much more IBUs then intended. A 1:1:1 ratio is fine. But you need to figure out your preference of flavor you want. I personally don’t care for the sugarlike component of el dorado when it is used heavy so I usually keep it very minimal as a supportive hop. I love mosaic so I would crush that. I would be at roughly 3:2:1 ratio for mosaic citra, El dorado

 

[marchuk96]

I've been following this thread for a while and have probably read most of it by now. I've been brewing for a while but NEIPA is a new style for me. I've put together a recipe from what I've read in this thread but am starting to make myself crazy trying to figure out the hop schedule. Especially when I started trying to determine IBUs I'll get from whirlpooling.

I was going to just follow Braufessor's most recent edit to the recipe (6 oz whirlpool and 6 oz dryhop) but I keep going back and forth on whether I should add any hops during the boil.

I have plenty of Citra, Mosaic and El Dorado that I can use for this recipe.
Would anyone like to recommend a hop schedule for me?
should I do 1:1:1? should I skip the boil additions? I don't want it to be cloying but not super bitter either.

Refer to my post from yesterday...spread out that 12 oz you have planned to include some late boil hops in whatever combo you want...generally i try to use 25-30% of total hops in boil...do know this though and not to make it more complicated...you will get different results from different combinations and amounts at different times...I made a beer with three hops...citra galaxy and nelson...4 oz of each hop total in beer... placing more citra in boil and more nelson in dry hop...I then made the same exact beer but swapped the citra and nelson amounts and time used while leaving galaxy at the same amount and time ... while the base of beer was the same the finished product yielded different results...different flavor and different aroma...ahh the variables in brewing..got to love it..i use brewtarget...when I plan out hopstands...i set them as 2 minute additions as there is no where to include hopstands in pthe program like beersmith has ...this helps give you a ballpark on what kind of ibus to expect...of course again the variables come into play again as temp of your stand will play a role and even time...but you will def get a ballpark doing it this way and even if the actual ibus in the finished beer are slightly off from what u are targeting you have at least a 10 IBU leeway up or down from you even noticing a perceived difference...good luck

 

[aaron_m]

I’m a firm believe in having boil additions. I typically still use 30% of my hops from 20 mins to flame out. This builds the complexity IMO. Then a 150 f whirlpool. Higher hopstand temps are where most ppl go wrong and pick up much more IBUs then intended.... I personally don’t care for the sugarlike component of el dorado when it is used heavy so I usually keep it very minimal as a supportive hop.

Refer to my post from yesterday...spread out that 12 oz you have planned to include some late boil hops in whatever combo you want...generally i try to use 25-30% of total hops in boil....i use brewtarget...when I plan out hopstands...i set them as 2 minute additions as there is no where to include hopstands in pthe program like beersmith has ...this helps give you a ballpark on what kind of ibus to expect...

Thank you for the replies, I'm sure I'm way overthinking this. I will add 25-30% my hops during the end of the boil to target the IBU range I am after and add my whirlpool hops in the 150-160 range.

I've never used el dorado before so I will take Dgallo's advice and switch up the ratio to use it as a supporting hop and see how I like it. I should be brewing this tomorrow or the next day so I will come back and let everyone know how it turned out.

Thanks!

 

[ttuato]

I love this thread. I've been brewing NEIPA's since 2015 after my first Tree House can. Since then I've brewed countless batches trying to perfect my "base". I've read so many threads, blogs, etc. on the subject and I'm still finding it difficult to elevate my NEIPA's. I've won two competitions, but I want to improve even more. I've messed with my water profiles countless times and really haven't noticed that drastic of a change. Chlorides anywhere from 100ppm to 200ppm, Sulfates from 50ppm to 175ppm. Mash ph's from 5.2 to 5.4.

I've recently really started to read into the people trying to clone Tree House's Julius and figuring out the yeast. I'm happy with the few grain bills I use as well as the yeast I use (1318). I'm more interested in what a few of them are doing with their water profiles. Calcium in the 20-50ppm range, Sodium in the 50-75ppm range, Sulfates in the 75-100ppm range, and Chlorides in the 100-200ppm range. I think a few are onto something as far as mouthfeel goes. The typical NEIPA profile has 100+ppm Calcium and Sulfates/Chlorides in the 75-200ppm range. With Calcium 100+ppm, that's some pretty hard water. Wouldn't you want soft water for a soft mouthfeel? I've used Bru'n Water to effectively cut my hardness in half if not more while keeping Sulfates at 75ppm and Chlorides at 150ppm. Just wondering if anyone has tried the low calcium approach to their water profile. I'll be giving it a shot once my most recent NEIPA kicks. Just thought I would stir the pot about water profiles since I think it's one of the major keys to brewing a great beer.

Similar journey to you and same inspiration (TH Green). I will share the “elevations” I have experienced in no particular order that I learned after 47 NEIPA batches --- spoiler: water wasn't a significant one

• #1 without question was yeast. Strain, fermentation temp, pitch rate - all have such a significant impact on final product more so than hops
• Grain bill in NEIPAs is not critical because such a back seat to yeast/hops. I prefer wheat over oats and like a little honey malt.
• Variability of impact to flavor hops have in whirlpool vs dry hop. Whirlpool tends to bring more negatives if there vs just dry hop. I loosely follow Trilliums lead and have a standard whirlpool blend (simcoe, citra, bravo, mosaic) that is nothing but citrus juicy goodness without any negatives (catty, diesel, dank, garlic, onion, etc). My dry hops run the gamut.
• Carbonation level (11-12psi) affects mouthfeel more than water profile in my opinion
• Avoid trub getting into fermenter - get it clear as possible
• CO2 extract for boil rather than hops - clean bitterness without chlorophyll or polyphenols
• Water profile - only did one experimental batch split three ways for this. Could not tell a difference so I landed on the one that was similar to the most lauded profile in this thread (attached screenshot with amounts) (5.35pH mash)
• Use Bru'n water & Beersmith
• Cold side LODO transfer
• Hopping rates - 1oz/gal whirlpool - ~1.5oz/gal total dry hop (use less with highly potent hops like mosaic, galaxy, motueka, etc)
• Dryhopping after FG seems better than Krausen dryhopping....obvious difficulty here is avoiding O2 exposure. (If you have a speidel or conical check out Norcal yeast harvester/brink for no-O2 option)

 

[LumberZach]

Similar journey to you and same inspiration (TH Green). I will share the “elevations” I have experienced in no particular order that I learned after 47 NEIPA batches --- spoiler: water wasn't a significant one

• #1 without question was yeast. Strain, fermentation temp, pitch rate - all have such a significant impact on final product more so than hops
• Grain bill in NEIPAs is not critical because such a back seat to yeast/hops. I prefer wheat over oats and like a little honey malt.
• Variability of impact to flavor hops have in whirlpool vs dry hop. Whirlpool tends to bring more negatives if there vs just dry hop. I loosely follow Trilliums lead and have a standard whirlpool blend (simcoe, citra, bravo, mosaic) that is nothing but citrus juicy goodness without any negatives (catty, diesel, dank, garlic, onion, etc). My dry hops run the gamut.
• Carbonation level (11-12psi) affects mouthfeel more than water profile in my opinion
• Avoid trub getting into fermenter - get it clear as possible
• CO2 extract for boil rather than hops - clean bitterness without chlorophyll or polyphenols
• Water profile - only did one experimental batch split three ways for this. Could not tell a difference so I landed on the one that was similar to the most lauded profile in this thread (attached screenshot with amounts) (5.35pH mash)
• Use Bru'n water & Beersmith
• Cold side LODO transfer
• Hopping rates - 1oz/gal whirlpool - ~1.5oz/gal total dry hop (use less with highly potent hops like mosaic, galaxy, motueka, etc)
• Dryhopping after FG seems better than Krausen dryhopping....obvious difficulty here is avoiding O2 exposure. (If you have a speidel or conical check out Norcal yeast harvester/brink for no-O2 option)

View attachment 609116

Thanks for you findings. I definitely agree with you about the wheat over the oats. As far as yeast goes, I use strictly 1318 and always build a starter based on YeastCalc to give me the appropriate pitch rate. I never underpitch. As far as ferm temps, I have moved towards fermenting at 70F (wort temp) and letting that ride out to completion (8 days).

Thanks for you water profile, but I don't think the calculations are correct. Is that Bru'N Water? I have the supporter version 5.5 and your numbers don't jive, especially your total hardness number.

 

[ttuato]

Thanks for you findings. I definitely agree with you about the wheat over the oats. As far as yeast goes, I use strictly 1318 and always build a starter based on YeastCalc to give me the appropriate pitch rate. I never underpitch. As far as ferm temps, I have moved towards fermenting at 70F (wort temp) and letting that ride out to completion (8 days).

Thanks for you water profile, but I don't think the calculations are correct. Is that Bru'N Water? I have the supporter version 5.5 and your numbers don't jive, especially your total hardness number.

My bad I screenshot Beersmith. I will post Brun Water info tomorrow. Every water calculator I have used always calculates the CL much lower than Brun water - Brun water is around 160 ppm - dont remember hardness.

I suggest you try underpitching the yeast. The difference is noticeable. I use brewersfriend and shoot for 0.4MM/ml. Building a “standard” started will reduce the desirable esters from yeast - the idea came from Kimmich. I tried with 1318, Conan, 1272, & Sacc Trois - all expresses fruity eaters better when under pitched - to my senses anyway.

 

[LumberZach]

My bad I screenshot Beersmith. I will post Brun Water info tomorrow. Every water calculator I have used always calculates the CL much lower than Brun water - Brun water is around 160 ppm - dont remember hardness.

I suggest you try underpitching the yeast. The difference is noticeable. I use brewersfriend and shoot for 0.4MM/ml. Building a “standard” started will reduce the desirable esters from yeast - the idea came from Kimmich. I tried with 1318, Conan, 1272, & Sacc Trois - all expresses fruity eaters better when under pitched - to my senses anyway.

So you're saying to pretty much halve the "standard" pitch rate to coax the fruity esters out of 1318?

 

[beervoid]

Very interesting article. Kind of concludes what I’ve noticed through my own trial and error. I typically dry hop at around .8oz per gallon but no more than 1oz per gallon. I’ve found that my aroma/flavor intensity does not increase after this point, also I’ve found the aroma/flavor is cleaner (less muddled) and showcases a(n) greater specific hop verietal(s) profile.

For a while now I’ve been systematically reducing my total hop use for IPA/NEIPA. I’m a firm believer that more does not mean better. I’m down to 2-2.4 total oz per gallon and am producing my best beers yet.

Im wondering at these lower dry hopping rates did you notice the beers turning clear from murky faster?
How long post dry hopping would you say they loose their greennes and become juicy?

My experience with lower rates is they taste better faster but on the long run they loose from higher dry hopping rates.
6oz dry hop was drinkable within 1 week. The higher I went the longer it needed to become drinkable.

 

[Dgallo]

Im wondering at these lower dry hopping rates did you notice the beers turning clear from murky faster?
How long post dry hopping would you say they loose their greennes and become juicy?

My experience with lower rates is they taste better faster but on the long run they loose from higher dry hopping rates.
6oz dry hop was drinkable within 1 week. The higher I went the longer it needed to become drinkable.

My recent dryhops have all been around 3-4oz and aroma punches out of the glass(I still believe the yeast strain and proper carb have a lot to do with this as well) and I’ve been going grain to glass in 12 days. Flavor is usually pretty good at this point but it does have that slight green and hop particulate spicyness for another 3 days or so. I don’t notice them clearing any faster since reducing the dryhop. For flavor, I’ve actually noticed the opposite, they seem to be staying in their prime much longer than the beers where I dryhoped at 1.5-2 oz/gal. My kegs don’t typically last too long, maximum about 12 weeks but the last good pour shows little to no degrade

 

[ttuato]

My bad I screenshot Beersmith. I will post Brun Water info tomorrow. Every water calculator I have used always calculates the CL much lower than Brun water - Brun water is around 160 ppm - dont remember hardness.

I suggest you try underpitching the yeast. The difference is noticeable. I use brewersfriend and shoot for 0.4MM/ml. Building a “standard” started will reduce the desirable esters from yeast - the idea came from Kimmich. I tried with 1318, Conan, 1272, & Sacc Trois - all expresses fruity eaters better when under pitched - to my senses anyway.

Yes - underpitch it for more esters, IF that is what you want. For these beers - folks usually want more esters. The standard starter rate of 0.75-1.0MM/mL will produce a "cleaner" ester profile - so it is advised in many other beer styles but usually not this one.

The other aspect to drive esters is temperature, depending on yeast the desirable esters that they produce happen at different points on the scale. e.g - Conan @ 63* or 1272 @ 72*. Pitch rate/ temperature is all about yeast stress.

The "art" is balancing the yeast esters with the hops. I can only consistently nail that only with 1272.

Here is Brun Water - same additions, wildly different numbers. I am tempted to pull a sample and send to ward labs to see which calculator is correct.

 

[tld6008]

I've been following this thread for a while and have probably read most of it by now. I've been brewing for a while but NEIPA is a new style for me. I've put together a recipe from what I've read in this thread but am starting to make myself crazy trying to figure out the hop schedule. Especially when I started trying to determine IBUs I'll get from whirlpooling.

I was going to just follow Braufessor's most recent edit to the recipe (6 oz whirlpool and 6 oz dryhop) but I keep going back and forth on whether I should add any hops during the boil.

I have plenty of Citra, Mosaic and El Dorado that I can use for this recipe.
Would anyone like to recommend a hop schedule for me?
should I do 1:1:1? should I skip the boil additions? I don't want it to be cloying but not super bitter either.

I recommend you follow Braufessor's recipe as it has been developed over many brews. It takes all the guesswork out of brewing this style and makes a great beer. After doing that you can tweak to your specific desire... but do his first.

 

[cheesebach]

Here is Brun Water - same additions, wildly different numbers. I am tempted to pull a sample and send to ward labs to see which calculator is correct.
View attachment 609209

That difference is really odd, but there's no need to bother sending in a sample to Ward labs - Bru'n Water is correct (at least for chloride, I haven't checked the other ions). It's getting close to 2 decades since I've taken chemistry, but it should be an easy calculation for any software program to handle correctly.

Using the molar mass for NaCl (58.44), CaCl2 (110.98) and Cl (35.45), you can find the total grams of the chloride ion from your mineral additions:

Cl from NaCl = (35.45 / 58.44) * 2.4g = 1.46g
Cl from CaCl2 = ((35.45*2) / 110.98) * 9.6 = 6.13g
Total Cl = 7.59g

Your total water (from 12 gallons) is 45425ml, which is 45425g. From there, you can calculate ppm as mass of Cl divided by the total weight of the solution:

7.59 / (45425 + 2.4 + 9.6 + 9.6) = 0.000167 = 167ppm

I wonder what beersmith is doing differently to come up with the wrong numbers.

 

[beervoid]

That difference is really odd, but there's no need to bother sending in a sample to Ward labs - Bru'n Water is correct (at least for chloride, I haven't checked the other ions). It's getting close to 2 decades since I've taken chemistry, but it should be an easy calculation for any software program to handle correctly.

Using the molar mass for NaCl (58.44), CaCl2 (110.98) and Cl (35.45), you can find the total grams of the chloride ion from your mineral additions:

Cl from NaCl = (35.45 / 58.44) * 2.4g = 1.46g
Cl from CaCl2 = ((35.45*2) / 110.98) * 9.6 = 6.13g
Total Cl = 7.59g

Your total water (from 12 gallons) is 45425ml, which is 45425g. From there, you can calculate ppm as mass of Cl divided by the total weight of the solution:

7.59 / (45425 + 2.4 + 9.6 + 9.6) = 0.000167 = 167ppm

I wonder what beersmith is doing differently to come up with the wrong numbers.

The difference is most likely that brunwater calculates with chloride solution and beersmith uses chloride that comes in the crystalized form which is not 100%

 

[beervoid]

My recent dryhops have all been around 3-4oz and aroma punches out of the glass(I still believe the yeast strain and proper carb have a lot to do with this as well) and I’ve been going grain to glass in 12 days. Flavor is usually pretty good at this point but it does have that slight green and hop particulate spicyness for another 3 days or so. I don’t notice them clearing any faster since reducing the dryhop. For flavor, I’ve actually noticed the opposite, they seem to be staying in their prime much longer than the beers where I dryhoped at 1.5-2 oz/gal. My kegs don’t typically last too long, maximum about 12 weeks but the last good pour shows little to no degrade

Thats impressive, I will need to test that out.

I read you dont use whirlfloc. Do you get alot of trub into the fermenter or do you take care about that? How clear is the wort going into the fv?
How much hops for whirlpool?

Ive done a 12oz whirlpool with 4oz dry hop and I wasnt impressed much with the aroma and flavor.. not as good compared with 6oz whirlpoolwand 10oz dryhop.

 

[Dgallo]

Thats impressive, I will need to test that out.

I read you dont use whirlfloc. Do you get alot of trub into the fermenter or do you take care about that? How clear is the wort going into the fv?
How much hops for whirlpool?

Ive done a 12oz whirlpool with 4oz dry hop and I wasnt impressed much with the aroma and flavor.. not as good compared with 6oz whirlpoolwand 10oz dryhop.

Your correct, I do not use any whirfloc. Whirlfloc only drops out protein and I aim to hang on to the protein for two reasons. One is to contribute to the over all appearance of this style. The second is something I pulled from nutrition. Amino acids have a weak positive attraction to oils in food. Since proteins are formed by amino acids I’ve transferred this logic into brewing believing that if there is more protein in suspension, hop oils will be weakly attracted to them, which will speed up extraction for DH and keep the oils in suspension longer. (I do not know if this theory can truly carry over from a chemistry standpoint)

I still get a decent hot break, so I do leave trub after the whirlpool in the kettle.

I also hop at a lower rate than you. I’m down to 2-2.5oz/gallon of total hops in the beer. This usually brings me around 10-12oz for 5 gallon batches. I use 20-30% from 20 mins to flame out, 40-50% during WP at low temps for 90 mins, and then 30-40% in dryhop. This is all dependent on the hops I’m using.

 

[leesmith]

I still get a decent hot break, so I do leave trub after the whirlpool in the kettle.

Just to clarify: After chilling, you let your wort sit, allowing the hot and cold break to settle in the kettle and carefully rack to a fermentation vessel? I believe you ferment in a conical? Do you do a trub dump a day or to after transferring wort into the fermentor?

 

[Dgallo]

Just to clarify: After chilling, you let your wort sit, allowing the hot and cold break to settle in the kettle and carefully rack to a fermentation vessel? I believe you ferment in a conical? Do you do a trub dump a day or to after transferring wort into the fermentor?

So the hot break occurs during the boil, usually within the first 15 mins for me. Looks like egg drop soup, combination of proteins and grain particles. After my whirlpool is complete, I’ll run my wort chiller until pitching temp, remove the wort chiller, give a good light spin to get any of the trub that went back into suspension from removing the chiller to drop back out and the rack after sitting for 10 mins. This leaves behind most of the trub. I do not drop any of the trub or yeast during fermentation. I know a lot of people do but I have done side by side comparisons of removing trub and not and see no difference.

 

[leesmith]

So the hot break occurs during the boil, usually within the first 15 mins for me. Looks like egg drop soup, combination of proteins and grain particles. After my whirlpool is complete, I’ll run my wort chiller until pitching temp, remove the wort chiller, give a good light spin to get any of the trub that went back into suspension from removing the chiller to drop back out and the rack after sitting for 10 mins. This leaves behind most of the trub. I do not drop any of the trub or yeast during fermentation. I know a lot of people do but I have done side by side comparisons of removing trub and not and see no difference.

Cool. Thx for sharing.
Do you find your beer has good head retention?

 

[Dgallo]

Cool. Thx for sharing.
Do you find your beer has good head retention?

Yeah I use flaked wheat over oats, so head retention is not an issue

 

[leesmith]

Yeah I use flaked wheat over oats, so head retention is not an issue

So would you say that the flaked wheat is making up for what you don’t do in process? Do you see excellent foam in other beer styles you make without flaked wheat?

 

[Dgallo]

So would you say that the flaked wheat is making up for what you don’t do in process? Do you see excellent foam in other beer styles you make without flaked wheat?

I’m confused what you mean what I don’t do in the process. Head retention is caused by the surface tension of the beer against the co2. Co2 levels, Proteins, dextrines, and oils from the hops contribute to your foam/head retention. I get enough dextrin from basemalts and high mash temps, proteins from the flaked wheat, and NEipas are heavily hopped so I have no issue with head retention.

I could use red or white wheat but I prefer flaked wheat for the added body benifit. And as long as im using a grain with slightly elevated protein levels, head retention is not issue in any other style. However with my sours, I do have an issue keeping the head. Assuming PH has an impact.

 

[Hannabrew]

Since you adhere to it maybe you can clear somethings up for me. I unstand the theorized argument that LODO preboil should hold on malt aromas and flavors, however I’m lost at a chemistry level. If oxygen should happen to dissolve into the beer preboil or the water itself has a higher disolved oxygen level, would it not escape the beer during boil. Disolved oxygen would not bond itself, so through the boils agitation it should release.

Another question is, are you truly seeing a vast difference in your malty styles since making the full LODO switch?

I don't know the exact science of it but the best way to look at it is preserving malt flavor/aroma. Anything you smell is lost. So yes you're DO will be zero during the boil but if you let the mash sit in an o2 environment then you're losing the precious malt flavors.

I've noticed a big difference in malt forward styles. The malt is so fresh tasting it can be a bit overwhelming until you get recipes dialed in to account for it.

 

[Hannabrew]

L.O.D.O... Y.O.L.O.!!
Don't think I'm sold on the whole idea...I'm a believer of post wort oxidation but before that...I'm skeptical...

http://brulosophy.com/2017/04/10/th...ow-oxygen-brewing-method-exbeeriment-results/

While yielding a difference...it seemed the majority found it undesirable

This was perhaps brulosophy's worst xbt...they were completely different beers from the start

 

[leesmith]

I’m confused what you mean what I don’t do in the process. Head retention is caused by the surface tension of the beer against the co2. Co2 levels, Proteins, dextrines, and oils from the hops contribute to your foam/head retention. I get enough dextrin from basemalts and high mash temps, proteins from the flaked wheat, and NEipas are heavily hopped so I have no issue with head retention.

I could use red or white wheat but I prefer flaked wheat for the added body benifit. And as long as im using a grain with slightly elevated protein levels, head retention is not issue in any other style. However with my sours, I do have an issue keeping the head. Assuming PH has an impact.

Then I was mistaken. What you were saying is that oats cause poor head retention?

I can say with my process, the inclusion of a long rest (@60 min) after chilling has lead to better foam and retention by dropping out all those fatty acids that are detrimental to foam in all my beers. I’d rather have better foam then better haze.

From researching and finding this article due to this conversation, I’d like to improve on my process of trub separation since I don’t chill the wort as low or do anything for O2 ingress during this rest I do: http://www.lowoxygenbrewing.com/brewing-methods/trub-seperation-why-and-how/.

 

[Dgallo]

Then I was mistaken. What you were saying is that oats cause poor head retention?
.

You were correct there. Flaked oats does have less head retention properties than flaked wheat. Wheat is king here. Some prefer the mouthfeel of oats over flaked wheat, but I’m the opposite.

 

[Hannabrew]

Clear wort makes good beer. At least that's been my experience.

People say they don't notice a difference between dumping the bk into the fermenter vs clear wort but I've never tasted their beer so....

Also simply comparing flavor doesn't account for differences in stability, head retention, etc.

 

[Dgallo]

This is a NE IPA thread so your going to see more and more people not worried about fining in this thread. Now if we were talking pilsners, lagers, ambers, and other styles where clarity is a characteristic I would certainly have discussed using fining on both hot side for proteins and cold side for the negatively charged particles.

 

[Hannabrew]

This is a NE IPA thread so your going to see more and more people not worried about fining in this thread. Now if we were talking pilsners, lagers, ambers, and other styles where clarity is a characteristic I would certainly have discussed using fining on both hot side for proteins and cold side for the negatively charged particles.

I still think it adds value in this style if for nothing else than stability.

 

[leesmith]

I still think it adds value in this style if for nothing else than stability.

I agree that it’s pertinent to this style.

What I like about the article I linked was all the trub separation was done through process and not with additions of Irish moss or whatever fining. And the research done and quoted in that article was more than just kettle finings drop out proteins...some good quotes. Most of the online stuff that I could find about kettle finings wasn’t very thorough....and honestly a lot about clear beer and less of the other benefits of separation.

What does this mean to the style?
Trub separation can smooth out bittering....seems like that’s important to people with this style.

Stability....tons of posts on Reddit and this platform about IPA’s being lackluster (stale) after a short time once packaged.

I like the Suarez pour (Treehouse does too)...and it’s my own personal thing. Big fluffy pillowy head that settles like a marshmallow to the very last sip.

And if anything...harvested yeast isn’t a mess of proteins and whatever other stuff makes trub.

 

[Dgallo]

I still think it adds value in this style if for nothing else than stability.

The proteins remaining after the hot break should have no impact on stability. Oxygen is your enemy. Which lead me to my response to lee’s

Stability....tons of posts on Reddit and this platform about IPA’s being lackluster (stale) after a short time once packaged.

Other than pure oxidation issues, The biggest issues people are facing with stale beer in this style is over hopping or excessive contact time. Both of these issues lead to extracting excess polyphenols and chlorophyll which are highly susceptible to oxidation and quickly degrade causing discoloration and stale/lackluster like flavors.

Another issue people overlook is yeast health and letting your yeast finish and clean up at warmer temps.

 

[leesmith]

The proteins remaining after the hot break should have no impact on stability. Oxygen is your enemy. Which lead me to my response to lee’s

As the article I linked earlier says, "Cold break consists of protein-polyphenol compounds..." which when reduced can result in, "A more rounded beer flavor particularly in the bitterness, an improvement of the beer foam (as a result of the precipitation of fatty acids), an improvement of the flavour stability, and a more intensive fermentation."

Other than pure oxidation issues, The biggest issues people are facing with stale beer in this style is over hopping or excessive contact time. Both of these issues lead to extracting excess polyphenols and chlorophyll which are highly susceptible to oxidation and quickly degrade causing discoloration and stale/lackluster like flavors.

Could you provide some insight or references for this? Again see above...If we reduce excess polyphenols from the onset wouldn't it help with dry hopping to mitigate the negative results of excess polyphenols introduced during dry hopping?

Another issue people overlook is yeast health and letting your yeast finish and clean up at warmer temps.

Yes...I agree.

 

[marchuk96]

I agree that it’s pertinent to this style.

What I like about the article I linked was all the trub separation was done through process and not with additions of Irish moss or whatever fining. And the research done and quoted in that article was more than just kettle finings drop out proteins...some good quotes. Most of the online stuff that I could find about kettle finings wasn’t very thorough....and honestly a lot about clear beer and less of the other benefits of separation.

What does this mean to the style?
Trub separation can smooth out bittering....seems like that’s important to people with this style.

Stability....tons of posts on Reddit and this platform about IPA’s being lackluster (stale) after a short time once packaged.

I like the Suarez pour (Treehouse does too)...and it’s my own personal thing. Big fluffy pillowy head that settles like a marshmallow to the very last sip.

And if anything...harvested yeast isn’t a mess of proteins and whatever other stuff makes trub.

I have stopped worrying about trub into fermentor for n.e i.p.a ...I used to but haven't seen any Ill effects from trying to limit it versus just letting in whatever gets in.. and my beers have no issues with stability...head retention , bitterness, lacing, or mouthfeel...i also use flaked wheat but always included flaked oats and carapils...usually a pound of each for my 5.5 gal batches...and def no whirlfloc..now if I were going for a west coast IPA...I may limit trub as i would want it as clear as possible and add whirlfloc...

 

[marchuk96]

As the article I linked earlier says, "Cold break consists of protein-polyphenol compounds..." which when reduced can result in, "A more rounded beer flavor particularly in the bitterness, an improvement of the beer foam (as a result of the precipitation of fatty acids), an improvement of the flavour stability, and a more intensive fermentation."



Could you provide some insight or references for this? Again see above...If we reduce excess polyphenols from the onset wouldn't it help with dry hopping to mitigate the negative results of excess polyphenols introduced during dry hopping?



Yes...I agree.

And not that I'm saying you or info quoted in the article are wrong...but the findings are a tad dated no...

 

[marchuk96]

This was perhaps brulosophy's worst xbt...they were completely different beers from the start

I only saw water adjustment as a difference and it was to make them more similar...did i miss something?

 

[Dgallo]

As the article I linked earlier says, "Cold break consists of protein-polyphenol compounds..." which when reduced can result in, "A more rounded beer flavor particularly in the bitterness, an improvement of the beer foam (as a result of the precipitation of fatty acids), an improvement of the flavour stability, and a more intensive fermentation."

So since I used a wort chiller, this could certainly be happening without me aiming for it. Since I’ve never had an issue here, I haven’t researched it but from your article it would make sense that I’m Obtaining this cold break on top of the hot break.

As the
Could you provide some insight or references for this? Innovation Again see above...If we reduce excess polyphenols from the onset wouldn't it help with dry hopping to mitigate the negative results of excess polyphenols introduced during dry hopping?

I will try to find the article again; I did not save It. However, the research discussed that your hot break and whirlpool will drop your polyphenol/protein from boil and hopstand addition. They also mention fermentation will drop additional polyphenol. So this would be by itself little impact in final beer. When I’m discussing excess hopping I’m talking about folks who dry hop at a 1.5-2oz per gallon which some articles promote, which I totally disagree with through actual practice. Just like the article you posted before https://www.researchgate.net/profil...rofiles-of-beer.pdf?origin=publication_detail showed that 1oz/gallon was the ideal dryhop range. For those who don’t use mesh bags this could be closer to .7-.8oz/gal. This leads me to what I have found in my own experience that increased dryhopping rates can lead to quicker degrade and increased oxidation issues.

 

[Hannabrew]

http://www.lowoxygenbrewing.com/brewing-methods/trub-seperation-why-and-how/

This article sums up key points from some of the top professional brewing bibles

Break material = faster stalling, foam negative

 

[marchuk96]

http://www.lowoxygenbrewing.com/brewing-methods/trub-seperation-why-and-how/

This article sums up key points from some of the top professional brewing bibles

Break material = faster stalling, foam negative

Again...slightly dated info
Again... slightly dated

 

[Dgallo]

http://www.lowoxygenbrewing.com/brewing-methods/trub-seperation-why-and-how/

This article sums up key points from some of the top professional brewing bibles

Break material = faster stalling, foam negative

Idk if you wrote this in response to me but I do agree with leaving break material in the kettled. But for this style, I personally will not use any addition finings. This was certainly a good read though, I feel like I’ve seen the references articles previously.