New England IPA "Northeast" style IPA

[Gustatorian]

I have never really had any experience with "hop burn" of any sort. I suppose it is likely a combo of Over Carbonation and possibly the transfer of too much particulate. That is just a guess though.

Spot on. Suspended hop particulate accentuated by carbonic bite is most likely the case. The beers due improve with cold-conditioning, although I'm not convinced keeping hop matter in the keg is best for the beer.

 

[cheesebach]

I have never really had any experience with "hop burn" of any sort. I suppose it is likely a combo of Over Carbonation and possibly the transfer of too much particulate. That is just a guess though.

My guess it’s related to the yeast and timing of the dry hop - I’ve gotten a pretty strong burn in a few commercial examples as well (Trillium and Pinthouse Pizza most often, but those are also the ones I’m able to get the most of), and I’d think they probably have reasonably consistent transfer and carbonation practices. The split batch I ran between Conan and 1318 had the hop burn in the 1318 but not the Conan batch. Everything was identical besides the pitching of the yeast, and they were carbonated at the same time.

For me, the hop burn didn’t really settle down much through the life of the keg - it wasn’t ever really so strong that it wasn’t an enjoyable beer, but it was still noticeable 2 months after brew day. It did drop off a bit, but so did hop flavor. I did a closed transfer to a water purged keg, so the hop character was still pretty good at the 2 month mark but not as good as it was at 3 weeks.

 

[cheesebach]

I should also mention that all my hops were added in the primary (no keg hops).

 

[Cavpilot2000]

I've not been following this thread for a while, since I "perfected" my NEIPA base recipe a long time ago and now it's just varying the hops.

Has anyone used Bravo in one of these?

I've got some, but I've never used it. Flavor profile speaks of tropical fruits and such. I plan to mix it with Citra and Azacca.

Can anyone speak to Bravo's flavor as suitable or not for an NEIPA?

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Bravo is a bit of a funny one, it's rather one-dimensional so it doesn't really work on its own. But it has an insane amount of geraniol, so is perhaps best viewed as a specialist "geranioling" hop in the same way as bittering hops, best used in the whirlpool and as a dry hop at pitching time, to make sure the yeast have a chance to work on the geraniol to make other compounds.

 

[Cavpilot2000]

Bravo is a bit of a funny one, it's rather one-dimensional so it doesn't really work on its own. But it has an insane amount of geraniol, so is perhaps best viewed as a specialist "geranioling" hop in the same way as bittering hops, best used in the whirlpool and as a dry hop at pitching time, to make sure the yeast have a chance to work on the geraniol to make other compounds.

But do you think it would suit the flavor of a tropical citrus NEIPA or would it be too floral?

 

[Northern_Brewer]

One man's too floral is another man's added complexity, only you can really say. But it's probably too floral if you add it as a late dry hop, you want to give all that geraniol a chance to be biotransformed into more interesting compounds, which can include a lot of citrus flavours. Hence adding Bravo at pitching or in the whirlpool.

 

[Cavpilot2000]

.

 

[Cavpilot2000]

One man's too floral is another man's added complexity, only you can really say. But it's probably too floral if you add it as a late dry hop, you want to give all that geraniol a chance to be biotransformed into more interesting compounds, which can include a lot of citrus flavours. Hence adding Bravo at pitching or in the whirlpool.

Fair point.
I'll use it all at pitching.
I think the Azacca and Citra will really carry the day anyway, but I'm curious to see what the Bravo brings to the table.

 

[jakturner]

On the topic of hop burn and cryohops I'll offer up my most recent experience. I made two beers of the same gravity, both 1/2 2 row 1/2 white wheat. One was made with mosaic and Citra pellets in WP and DH on day 2, with cryohops in the serving keg. Used F1 Conan/wlp644 hybrid yeast. This beer was incredibly smooth from day one. Second beer was Columbus in WP with single dry hop of equal parts citra and equinox on day 4 at tail end of fermentation. Used us-04 on this one and it still has hop burn now 1 week after putting it on the gas. Both beer fermentated for same amount of time (9 days) at 66 degrees.

 

[WiscoBrewer]

Great idea! Can you do me a favor and let us know if it will work in a 6.5G carboy? The mouth is a little narrower in those.

I have been using this for a cpl years now, it does fit the 6.5 glass carboys that I have. It's a tight fit but it works. I cut straight down the side of it an inch or two so it sort of folds over a bit and use a zip tie to keep it attached to the siphon tube. FWIW, I transfer into a keg directly through the liquid post and have never clogged.

 

[stickyfinger]

I have been using this for a cpl years now, it does fit the 6.5 glass carboys that I have. It's a tight fit but it works. I cut straight down the side of it an inch or two so it sort of folds over a bit and use a zip tie to keep it attached to the siphon tube. FWIW, I transfer into a keg directly through the liquid post and have never clogged.

very groovy info. Is there any reason to make sure it stays attached to the autosiphon? Why not just let it go to the bottom of the carboy and then put the autosiphon down enough to get the liquid?

 

[WiscoBrewer]

very groovy info. Is there any reason to make sure it stays attached to the autosiphon? Why not just let it go to the bottom of the carboy and then put the autosiphon down enough to get the liquid?

You could, but I didn't want to stir the bottom up AND it's a tight fit so it helps to get it back out.

 

[Brew_G]

Hop burn, can someone describe this? We just made a NEIPA, and it has a weird bitterness/burn at the end of a drink. The color is awesome, smells delicious, tastes pretty good, besides this "burn" at the end.

That sounds just like the "hop burn." It goes away with some aging. It's almost like there is a little bit of cayenne powder in the beer that just hits you on the back of your tongue or throat when you take a drink.

Interesting discussion in here about hop burn. I'll be honest...I thought that what I've gotten in one or two commercial NE IPAs - and now my first shot at a kegged NE IPA - was yeast bite.

I kegged this NE IPA about 10 days ago:

Grain Bill
9.5 lb Briess 2-row
1.5 lb Weyermann Wheat Malt
1.5 lb Rolled Oats
5 oz Honey Malt
4 oz Acidulated Malt

Hop Bill - All pellet hops
0.50 oz Magnum (12.4) - 60 mins
2.00 oz Galaxy (13) - Hopstand @ 160F for 30 mins
2.00 oz Mosaic (11.6) - Hopstand
1.00 oz Amarillo (9.7) - Hopstand
2.00 oz Galaxy - Dry Hop (Day 2)
2.00 oz Mosaic - Dry Hop (Day 2)
2.00 oz Amarillo - Dry Hop (Day 2)
1.00 oz Galaxy - Keg Hop
1.00 oz Mosaic - Keg Hop
2.00 oz Amarillo - Keg Hop

Yeast: Wyeast 1318 - London Ale III (1.25L starter pitched at high krausen)

Ferm Temp: 68F in basement swamp cooler, bumped to 71F about 60 hours after pitching.

It looks and smells fantastic, and the initial taste is quite nice, then that burn really gets you at the end. I did accidentally transfer quite a bit of trub, and it's been on gas and in the keezer for 6 days now, and it's not gotten too much better yet. I've been pulling small samples here and there to get that yeast off the bottom of the keg - I pulled about 5 oz yesterday that had a good mount of yeast at the bottom of the glass about two hours post-pour.

The burn I'm getting definitely reminds me of the big brouhaha surrounding Aslin's Master of Oranges and a couple other (though less egregious) releases from earlier this year. Smelled excellent and tasted fine at first, but then the burn was overwhelming.

I'm hoping the burn mellows, but if not are there any options for helping it along? Is this really the "fault" of 4 oz of keg hop?

 

[stickyfinger]

Interesting discussion in here about hop burn. I'll be honest...I thought that what I've gotten in one or two commercial NE IPAs - and now my first shot at a kegged NE IPA - was yeast bite.

I kegged this NE IPA about 10 days ago:

Grain Bill
9.5 lb Briess 2-row
1.5 lb Weyermann Wheat Malt
1.5 lb Rolled Oats
5 oz Honey Malt
4 oz Acidulated Malt

Hop Bill - All pellet hops
0.50 oz Magnum (12.4) - 60 mins
2.00 oz Galaxy (13) - Hopstand @ 160F for 30 mins
2.00 oz Mosaic (11.6) - Hopstand
1.00 oz Amarillo (9.7) - Hopstand
2.00 oz Galaxy - Dry Hop (Day 2)
2.00 oz Mosaic - Dry Hop (Day 2)
2.00 oz Amarillo - Dry Hop (Day 2)
1.00 oz Galaxy - Keg Hop
1.00 oz Mosaic - Keg Hop
2.00 oz Amarillo - Keg Hop

Yeast: Wyeast 1318 - London Ale III (1.25L starter pitched at high krausen)

Ferm Temp: 68F in basement swamp cooler, bumped to 71F about 60 hours after pitching.

It looks and smells fantastic, and the initial taste is quite nice, then that burn really gets you at the end. I did accidentally transfer quite a bit of trub, and it's been on gas and in the keezer for 6 days now, and it's not gotten too much better yet. I've been pulling small samples here and there to get that yeast off the bottom of the keg - I pulled about 5 oz yesterday that had a good mount of yeast at the bottom of the glass about two hours post-pour.

The burn I'm getting definitely reminds me of the big brouhaha surrounding Aslin's Master of Oranges and a couple other (though less egregious) releases from earlier this year. Smelled excellent and tasted fine at first, but then the burn was overwhelming.

I'm hoping the burn mellows, but if not are there any options for helping it along? Is this really the "fault" of 4 oz of keg hop?

Many of us either don't like 1318 or prefer it after the beer has aged some. I usually start really liking my 1318 IPAs after they have been in the keg for maybe 3 weeks. They smooth out a lot more after some age. I'd go so far as to say that if you are building up a stock of IPAs, make some with a yeast that tastes great right away and some with 1318 and just save the 1318 ones for later on when you run out of the other ones!!

Also, I think keg hops *can* give more of a burn. You could try just adding more to the primary.

 

[centrical]

Interesting discussion in here about hop burn. I'll be honest...I thought that what I've gotten in one or two commercial NE IPAs - and now my first shot at a kegged NE IPA - was yeast bite.


I'm hoping the burn mellows, but if not are there any options for helping it along? Is this really the "fault" of 4 oz of keg hop?

I also used to think it was yeast bite, but then I tasted a straight yeast starter (yuck), and it was not the same. Shared some qualities, but did not burn the back of my throat. Then I tasted straight hop pellet tea - closer, but not the same either. Nasty and harsh, but not quite the same raspy burn.

So I believe it's just the combination of yeast+hop, or fermenting changes hops? Either way, there's something that needs to get out!

Also - racking through a paint strainer bag does not fix it. I routinely use a paint strainer bag, and still get the burn often.

What I know helps:
1. gelatin
2. extended cold crash.

What I think might help:

1. cold crashing BEFORE carbing. I have largely cleared the burn with 3 days of cold crashing. OTOH, I have carbed up a beer, tasted the burn, and the burn stays for weeks. Is it possible that CO2 retains the suspended particles?


2. I *think*, if you are careful when you rack, don't stir up the "source" vessel, and leave the last few inches of beer in the fermenter , that may help keep it clean. People who don;t experience a burn - does this sound like your transfer?

 

[MMJfan]

2. I *think*, if you are careful when you rack, don't stir up the "source" vessel, and leave the last few inches of beer in the fermenter , that may help keep it clean. People who don;t experience a burn - does this sound like your transfer?

Do people who bottle experience this 'burn' taste? I have bottled two batches of this and I have yet to have any sort of burn taste.

I also am very careful when I rack to my bottling bucket to never dip my auto siphon too deep and I always try not to disturb the trub at the bottom of my fermentor and I sacrifice a few inches of beer because of this so maybe that's it?

Btw, I've used 1318 both times as well...

 

[thehaze]

Never experienced the " burn " issue when bottling. My only NEIPA fermented with 1318 was ready to drink after 5 days in the bottle and it was very smooth ( despite the 15 oz hops used ). Too bad it turned brown a few days after.

 

[Brew_G]

Many of us either don't like 1318 or prefer it after the beer has aged some. I usually start really liking my 1318 IPAs after they have been in the keg for maybe 3 weeks. They smooth out a lot more after some age. I'd go so far as to say that if you are building up a stock of IPAs, make some with a yeast that tastes great right away and some with 1318 and just save the 1318 ones for later on when you run out of the other ones!!

Also, I think keg hops *can* give more of a burn. You could try just adding more to the primary.

Gotcha. I'm OK with letting it sit for a bit, but I am pretty shocked at the bite/burn I'm getting at this point. I'm just really surprised to read about this "hop burn" now after all the research I've done on keg hopping.

As for 1318, I'm an Aslin junkie; their house strain is 1318/a variant, so I *know* I like it!

I can tell there's a really good beer in there, and I want to enjoy it!

 

[Brew_G]

I also used to think it was yeast bite, but then I tasted a straight yeast starter (yuck), and it was not the same. Shared some qualities, but did not burn the back of my throat. Then I tasted straight hop pellet tea - closer, but not the same either. Nasty and harsh, but not quite the same raspy burn.

So I believe it's just the combination of yeast+hop, or fermenting changes hops? Either way, there's something that needs to get out!

Also - racking through a paint strainer bag does not fix it. I routinely use a paint strainer bag, and still get the burn often.

What I know helps:
1. gelatin
2. extended cold crash.

What I think might help:

1. cold crashing BEFORE carbing. I have largely cleared the burn with 3 days of cold crashing. OTOH, I have carbed up a beer, tasted the burn, and the burn stays for weeks. Is it possible that CO2 retains the suspended particles?


2. I *think*, if you are careful when you rack, don't stir up the "source" vessel, and leave the last few inches of beer in the fermenter , that may help keep it clean. People who don;t experience a burn - does this sound like your transfer?

Thanks for the reply!

I purposely refrained from cold crashing in the fermenter because I wanted to stay away from suckback and bringing O2 into the fermenter, so I racked without crashing. I also didn't fine because I wanted the hop oils to remain in suspension as long as possible. Now I'm debating purging the keg and dropping in some gelatin to see if it helps.

1) As for carbing, perhaps next time I'll rack to keg, purge, seal the keg, and let it crash for a few days before carbing it. Can't hurt to try it that way.

2) I pulled up a decent amount of trub at one point fairly early on because I simply jabbed the damn thing down too far. Really rookie mistake. I was pretty careful beyond that, but I was pretty pissed when it happened. The hops were in a bag, though, so I didn't end up with any large hop particles, just my BIAB trub and yeast.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Lallemand's Danstar LalBrew New England Ale yeast now has a technical data sheet, and the response I received via an email inquiry to Lallemand indicates that it will be available in 11 g. retail packs in mid 2018. The link below is to the technical data sheet:

http://www.lallemandbrewing.com/wp-...11/LalBrew_New_England_Datahseet_11201701.pdf

 

[pearljam1984]

Definitely have tasted the hop burn folks are describing. i keg Hop regularly and don’t have this issue using different yeast strains. However, one that comes to mind on a commercial scale is Pinthouse Pizza Electric Jellyfish. It is a brewpub in austin. That beer is a NeIPA and burned to the point of giving me a sore throat.

 

[Brew_G]

Definitely have tasted the hop burn folks are describing. i keg Hop regularly and don’t have this issue using different yeast strains. However, one that comes to mind on a commercial scale is Pinthouse Pizza Electric Jellyfish. It is a brewpub in austin. That beer is a NeIPA and burned to the point of giving me a sore throat.

Interesting. I wonder what it is that causes some beers to burn like that. Looks like we need some analysis!

 

[braindead]

Had horrible hop burn from Brewdogs new Hazy Jane.
Pretty terrible NEIPA in my opinion.

Just kegged a new batch of Braufs 1418 recipe again today, but with 50% Cryo hops.
Sampled the leftovers and Zero hop burn at all.
Doesn't actually seems as hoppy as using 100% pellet which I'm surprised at but still amazing.

 

[plazola86]

So now I'm wondering if the hop burn is not one (hops) or the other (yeast) but both of them interacting with each other. Maybe its some biotransformation of some sort due to the yeast used? Maybe its hop dependent, some hops have more of a certain oil that transforms into the burn? I was sure it was hops in suspension from my experience but so many people keg hop and use cryo hops and don't have an issue that I'm starting to second guess myself.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Is hop burn mostly coming from cryo-hops?

 

[cheesebach]

What I think might help:

1. cold crashing BEFORE carbing. I have largely cleared the burn with 3 days of cold crashing. OTOH, I have carbed up a beer, tasted the burn, and the burn stays for weeks. Is it possible that CO2 retains the suspended particles?

I think this is something interesting to consider. For the batch I did which had it, I fermented in a keg and let it naturally carb using a spunding valve towards the tail end of fermentation. So my cold crash was done after the beer was 80-90% of the way carbonated. Would be curious to hear what others have to say about this.

2. I *think*, if you are careful when you rack, don't stir up the "source" vessel, and leave the last few inches of beer in the fermenter , that may help keep it clean. People who don;t experience a burn - does this sound like your transfer?

Whatever particles/sediment has settled out already shortly after fermentation should settle out relatively quickly again at cold temps in the keg, so I wouldn't expect this to cause a persistent off flavor (unless the keg keeps getting bounced around somehow). Also, commercial breweries should be very good at keeping trub out of their serving vessels, but they still have the burn sometimes.

Definitely have tasted the hop burn folks are describing. i keg Hop regularly and don’t have this issue using different yeast strains. However, one that comes to mind on a commercial scale is Pinthouse Pizza Electric Jellyfish. It is a brewpub in austin. That beer is a NeIPA and burned to the point of giving me a sore throat.

Electric Jellyfish is a staple for Pinthouse and has been around since the south location opened a few years ago. It does have a lot of citra, but isn't in the NEIPA style. I've had it probably 20-30 times - if the pour you got was hazy like a NEIPA and had a burn I wonder if you might have just gotten one of the first or last pours from the keg with some sediment in it. It's normally quite smooth! That being said, the beer with the most burn I've ever tasted was from the 1st or 2nd ever NEIPA style beer that Pinthouse released earlier this year.

So now I'm wondering if the hop burn is not one (hops) or the other (yeast) but both of them interacting with each other. Maybe its some biotransformation of some sort due to the yeast used? Maybe its hop dependent, some hops have more of a certain oil that transforms into the burn? I was sure it was hops in suspension from my experience but so many people keg hop and use cryo hops and don't have an issue that I'm starting to second guess myself.

I still think a fermentation interaction is the most likely. I've never keg hopped or used cryo hops, but have gotten the burn once. It was a split batch (1318 vs. Conan), and only the 1318 batch had the burn. I'm planning more split batches whenever I have the time to manage it. Dry hop timing, length, yeast, temp, etc. are all things to look at.

 

[SanPancho]

This is exactly what "hop burn" is. Its just really fine hop particles that make it into the beer. Cryo hops are concentrated and already in powder form that's why you get it even worse with them. I've tried keg hopping multiple times and each time they had that same burn to them, that's why I don't keg hop anymore. 1 big dry hop charge, inline filter from fermenter to keg and I've never had that issue again.

which filter setup are you using? single stage?

 

[plazola86]

I'm using one of these attached to the spigot of my fermenter to the out post on my keg to do a closed transfer, filters down to 100 micron (they have more sizes if you want). Got it for about $20 - $25 from vacmotion.com

 

[SanPancho]

got it. thats about what i figured, although wasnt sure on the micron size. i've got a food safe 10micron unit that will fit inline from keg to the tap.

my most recent brew has some bite on the end of it, i figured a filter would be a good way to settle the debate. now im thinking 10micron might be too small if you're getting rid of bite at 100. worried 10 might pull a little too much.

 

[centrical]

Is hop burn mostly coming from cryo-hops?

no. I have gotten it from cryhops, but also pellets.

 

[jakturner]

Is hop burn mostly coming from cryo-hops?

I just did 2 side by side batches, the one with a single dry hop of pellets had the burn (us-04), the second batch had 2 dry hops, one was pellets one was cryohops in the keg (F1 Conan hybrid) it was super smooth from day one. Different hops and yeast, so too many variables to make any assumptions. In my limit experience I never have got the burn from cryo hops, but then again I always use them as a smaller addition with mostly pellets.

 

[pearljam1984]

They may not call it a NEIPA. But it definitely is. Looked at Pinthouse Facebook page and why they have pictures from in 2015 is not the same beer as today. This is the style to a T. Based on untapped what was and what is now, has changed.

 

[arnobg]

Here's my second version. Enjoying this more than the first which I used the OP's original recipe.

Citra/Mosaic/Simcoe with just slight changes to the grain bill. 1318 for the yeast and 100 sulfate 150 chloride.

View attachment IMG_2877.jpg

View attachment IMG_2878.jpg

 

[Hannabrew]

Looks nice. I just rebrewed #1418 and a couple of comments.

1) It seems to lack bitterness. I know that's the style but it almost lacks any bite at all. Braufessor, what do you have the IBUs at? I add .85 warrior and and it comes out to about 45 IBUs.

2) The color seems to be in between orange juicy and that next level of hop juice. Compared to some of the commercial beers I've measured it against it doesn't have the appearance that I would like.

I think I hit the recipe on point and I use mostly LoDo processes...Any thoughts on color/bitterness Braufessor?

 

[Braufessor]

Looks nice. I just rebrewed #1418 and a couple of comments.

1) It seems to lack bitterness. I know that's the style but it almost lacks any bite at all. Braufessor, what do you have the IBUs at? I add .85 warrior and and it comes out to about 45 IBUs.

2) The color seems to be in between orange juicy and that next level of hop juice. Compared to some of the commercial beers I've measured it against it doesn't have the appearance that I would like.

I think I hit the recipe on point and I use mostly LoDo processes...Any thoughts on color/bitterness Braufessor?

I want to say my calculated bitterness usually comes in somewhere in the mid to upper 30's. That does not calculate anything from flameout/dry hops.... only the bittering addition. I would not consider mine "bitter" at all. My Pilsner has more bitterness than this beer. I would just push up that 60 minute addition a bit at a time till it his your preference. Worth noting that mine is on a beer coming in between 1.055-1.060, so bitterness can be relative to gravity.

Honestly, as far as color, put the right light on something and you can get about 10 shades of color. I have taken pictures of the exact same beer 1 minute apart, under different conditions, and one looks yellow/gold and the other looks Deep Orange..... same beer, different light. Ultimately, if you don't like the color of your beer, the simplest solution is to take a picture of it under different light. Mine comes in at a calculated 5 SRM or so - it is definitely on the light side. I prefer it to be toward the pale side for sure.
I would say the color in your picture looks similar to mine

 

[Kosova]

I'm using one of these attached to the spigot of my fermenter to the out post on my keg to do a closed transfer, filters down to 100 micron (they have more sizes if you want). Got it for about $20 - $25 from vacmotion.com

Do you use a pump with this filter or is gravity enough to transfer with all the hop matter clogging the pump with time?

 

[Brew_G]

Here's my second version. Enjoying this more than the first which I used the OP's original recipe.

Citra/Mosaic/Simcoe with just slight changes to the grain bill. 1318 for the yeast and 100 sulfate 150 chloride.

<snip>

That looks fantastic.

 

[pearljam1984]

Here's my second version. Enjoying this more than the first which I used the OP's original recipe.

Citra/Mosaic/Simcoe with just slight changes to the grain bill. 1318 for the yeast and 100 sulfate 150 chloride.

View attachment 419858

View attachment 419859

This looks delicious. Nice!!

 

[Brew_G]

Re: Hop Burn...

Is it possible that mineral levels would play a part? I'm no chemist, so I ask out of sheer naivete. The beer I'm having issues with had high fairly levels of chloride, so perhaps that's something to look into. Water chemistry is below:

100% RO Water
Gypsum: 0.35 g/gal
CaCl: 0.70 g/gal
NaCal: 0.15 g/gal

How about pH? Doubtful, I suppose, but it can't hurt to ask those smarter than I. I don't have a pH meter, but calculated mash pH (per Bru'N Water) was 5.4.