New England IPA "Northeast" style IPA

[WiscoBrewer]

Anyone ever get a "tartness" from 1318? It's the first time I've used the yeast, and it reminds me of other English yeasts that have the same tartness to them that I don't like... at all. Kind of regretting I used it. I fermented at 64 degrees. I use Bru'n water to build my profile and RO.

This why I like wlp-007, not tartness, get a lil fruitiness, and no attenuation issues like conan.

 

[WiscoBrewer]

Do you guys think 200:100 chloride to sulfate would make a beer taste salty? Just looking for more of a soft mouthfeel and not necessarily "salty"

I have never tried this but I have done 200:100 sulfate to chloride and like guite a bit. The last dozen or so runs have been 150:100 sulfate:chloride, I have tried several different profiles and this is what I have settled on according to personal tastes.

To me the higher chloride levels make the palate smooth but lack the hop "brightness" and I got this back with a ratio leaning more to the sulfate side. I think keeping the bicarbs down to very low levels is the best thing you can do.

 

[BreezyBrew]

This why I like wlp-007, not tartness, get a lil fruitiness, and no attenuation issues like conan.

I do like the taste of 007 but for some reason it always drops out before it finishes for me. I wish I could get it to work. I think my fermenter cools it off too much. I really wanted to get it to work for me but it didn't really matter what I tried.

 

[WiscoBrewer]

I do like the taste of 007 but for some reason it always drops out before it finishes for me. I wish I could get it to work. I think my fermenter cools it off too much. I really wanted to get it to work for me but it didn't really matter what I tried.

I make a starter using the "Yeast Starter" app, which I highly recommend over Mr. Malty. From my experience this yeast likes it a little warm. Cool to 63-64, pitch and ferment for 3 days at 64-65 then raise to 68-69. I've never had a problem with it quitting on me except the first time I used it, before ferm control, and it got a lil cold. That's the thing with 007, if it gets a lil cool it will drop, its highly flocculant. This can be used to your advantage, that's the thing I like about it, it drops like a brick and brings everything with it so if you dry hop with a few points to go it brings most of that material with it.

 

[BreezyBrew]

I make a starter using the "Yeast Starter" app, which I highly recommend over Mr. Malty. From my experience this yeast likes it a little warm. Cool to 63-64, pitch and ferment for 3 days at 64-65 then raise to 68-69. I've never had a problem with it quitting on me except the first time I used it, before ferm control, and it got a lil cold. That's the thing with 007, if it gets a lil cool it will drop, its highly flocculant. This can be used to your advantage, that's the thing I like about it, it drops like a brick and brings everything with it so if you dry hop with a few points to go it brings most of that material with it.

I wish it was as simple as that. I always build my starters 20% over the Mr. Malty yeast calc tool. I followed that fermentation schedule almost exactly and got different results. I'm saying there are so many variables that our results can be different. I was just giving my experience.

Sorry for the off topic response.

 

[stickyfinger]

I make a starter using the "Yeast Starter" app, which I highly recommend over Mr. Malty. From my experience this yeast likes it a little warm. Cool to 63-64, pitch and ferment for 3 days at 64-65 then raise to 68-69. I've never had a problem with it quitting on me except the first time I used it, before ferm control, and it got a lil cold. That's the thing with 007, if it gets a lil cool it will drop, its highly flocculant. This can be used to your advantage, that's the thing I like about it, it drops like a brick and brings everything with it so if you dry hop with a few points to go it brings most of that material with it.

I've also had issues with WLP007 in a high alcohol beer even though I pitched according to Mr Malty and used temp control.

 

[hezagenius]

Do you guys think 200:100 chloride to sulfate would make a beer taste salty? Just looking for more of a soft mouthfeel and not necessarily "salty"

I've got a 200 Cl, 100 SO4 batch carbing up now. I may try it tonight to see how it's coming along. It's only been carbing since Monday so I'm not expecting too much. Aroma was really nice at least. I'll report back if I detect any saltiness.

 

[WiscoBrewer]

Then it's settled, I'm the first to ever successfully ferment with 007 consistently. Nobody should ever even try, muahahaha!

 

[TBillionaire]

Decided to give S. cerevisiae's yeast starter philosophy a go... Shook 1.5L of 1.040 starter like crazy and got it to mostly all foam-then pitched 1318 and swirled it.

this morning:

Never did this method as I have a stir plate, but it will be interesting to see if this forms a bigger krausen by the time I brew at 3 today. Anyone try and have success with this method?

 

[hezagenius]

Then it's settled, I'm the first to ever successfully ferment with 007 consistently. Nobody should ever even try, muahahaha!

You can definitely make 007 work with this style. I followed my same starter and ferm temp practices (start low and raise to 70) and got a nice hazy beer. The haze stayed throughout the entire keg, probably 2 months. My fermentation was super fast. I was terminal by like Day 6 at the latest.

 

[FruityHops]

I used 007 on my latest five gal batch which was inspired by Trillium's Fort Point. A two liter starter that I had on a stir plate for 18 hours took it from 1.061 to 1.013 in four days or less (I only measured gravity on the 4th day). I let it sit two more days and it was still at 1.013 so I chilled and began carbing. That yeast seems like a monster to me, and I've seen lots of posts here saying the same.

There is a flavor in my beer that I'm not fond of. I'm not sure if it is from the white wheat malt that comprised about 15% of the grain bill, or if I should have let the yeast go longer than six days despite hitting terminal gravity. There is no doubt 007 can attenuate well though.

 

[Cavpilot2000]

I know people like to use Conan or British yeasts, but I used WLP001 for my last NEIPA (targeting a hybrid of Treehouse's Green and Julius), and I was really pleased. I got excellent attenuation, fast fermentation, and a clean (no-yeast) flavor profile to accentuate the grain bill and, of course, the hops. When I drink or brew a NEIPA, I don't want to encounter any yeast character whatsoever (my favorite examples are from Treehouse, as opposed to Trillium or Alchemist).

 

[phyllobeddo]

What do you guys think about the following for a 5% NE IPA? I would like to use up the Cascade, Apollo, Chinook, and Columbus hops that I have "loose" on hand. I have more Cascade and Columbus, but I have not broken up the one pound bags yet. I also have more Citra which is broken up into two and three ounce sealed bags. Beersmith shows 88IBUs so maybe I don't need the 2 grams of Magnum. The grain bill is probably just fine, but I'm not really sure how to best utilize what hops I have left. Thanks in advance for any suggestions!

*Edit - This is a 2.5 gallon batch.*

5% NE IPA

3# Maris Otter
10 oz Flaked Oats
4 oz Flaked Barley
4 oz Weyermann white wheat
2 oz Honey Malt
2 oz Flaked Wheat
2 oz Acid Malt
-
2 g Magnum 60 min
-
14 g Citra 0 min + steep ~60 min
14 g Cascade 0 min + steep ~60 min
-
14 g Citra ~30 min steep @ 170
14 g Apollo ~30 min steep @ 170
-
14 g Citra Dry hop Day 3
14 g Chinook Dry hop Day 3
-
14 Citra Dry hop Day 9
10 g Columbus Dry hop Day 9
-

 

[motosapiens]

i couldn't decide either, so i just took all my aroma hop additions and made them equal parts of the 3 hops i had (citra, amaraillo, ekuanot). for 5 gallons i did .5 oz fwh, 2 oz at flameout, 2 more oz after 30 mins (170 degrees or so) for another 30 mins, then 2 oz dry hop after 2 days, and 2 more oz dryhops 4 days after that.

 

[Cavpilot2000]

What do you guys think about the following for a 5% NE IPA?

-

For my two cents, I think you are off style here on several counts.
First, most NEIPAs are DIPAs, so the ABV is usually in the mid 6's up to 8's.
But assuming you want a "sessionable" NEIPA, 88 IBU seems waaay too much.
Most NEIPAs are low on bitterness, with all the hops being late additions for flavor and aroma. That's the big distinction bwteeen west coast IPAs and NEIPAs - the bitterness. In fact, in many of the popular commercial examples, there are no boil hops at all. Lots of breweries up here are doing hops additions only starting at flameout, or maybe 15 minutes in the boil at most.
Some are still doing bittering hops, but they keep it low.

Anybody else feel free to chime in and tell me I'm way off base, but I live in Massachusetts, and you can't swing a dead cat up here without knocking over three glasses of NEIPA, and very few of them would be described as "bitter" at all.

 

[Braufessor]

I know people like to use Conan or British yeasts, but I used WLP001 for my last NEIPA (targeting a hybrid of Treehouse's Green and Julius), and I was really pleased. I got excellent attenuation, fast fermentation, and a clean (no-yeast) flavor profile to accentuate the grain bill and, of course, the hops. When I drink or brew a NEIPA, I don't want to encounter any yeast character whatsoever (my favorite examples are from Treehouse, as opposed to Trillium or Alchemist).

I could not agree more. i do use conan a lot.... but, to be honest, it really comes off pretty clean for me. I think 1056/001 and 1272 are the two must underrated yeasts for this beer. They work great and are very reliable.

 

[stickyfinger]

For my two cents, I think you are off style here on several counts.
First, most NEIPAs are DIPAs, so the ABV is usually in the mid 6's up to 8's.
But assuming you want a "sessionable" NEIPA, 88 IBU seems waaay too much.
Most NEIPAs are low on bitterness, with all the hops being late additions for flavor and aroma. That's the big distinction bwteeen west coast IPAs and NEIPAs - the bitterness. In fact, in many of the popular commercial examples, there are no boil hops at all. Lots of breweries up here are doing hops additions only starting at flameout, or maybe 15 minutes in the boil at most.
Some are still doing bittering hops, but they keep it low.

Anybody else feel free to chime in and tell me I'm way off base, but I live in Massachusetts, and you can't swing a dead cat up here without knocking over three glasses of NEIPA, and very few of them would be described as "bitter" at all.

If you want to replicated commercial ones, this seems like good advice according to what i've seen/tried. However, I make low alcohol ones all of the time, and I much prefer them. They still taste fantastic, if somewhat thinner than the bigger OG versions.

I would back off on the bitterness too unless you just really love bitter beer.

 

[Rdom]

Decided to give S. cerevisiae's yeast starter philosophy a go... Shook 1.5L of 1.040 starter like crazy and got it to mostly all foam-then pitched 1318 and swirled it.

this morning:

Never did this method as I have a stir plate, but it will be interesting to see if this forms a bigger krausen by the time I brew at 3 today. Anyone try and have success with this method?

I've done it and it's worked fine.

 

[phyllobeddo]

If I eliminate the Magnum, add 3 more pounds of Maris Otter, change all whirlpool hops to 30 minutes, and eliminate 14 grams of Citra, Beersmith shows 43 IBUs. I agree that's much more in line with style. I do not like bitter beer! My main concern is if the mix of hops will be all tasty or not.

 

[Cavpilot2000]

If I eliminate the Magnum, add 3 more pounds of Maris Otter, change all whirlpool hops to 30 minutes, and eliminate 14 grams of Citra, Beersmith shows 43 IBUs. I agree that's much more in line with style. I do not like bitter beer! My main concern is if the mix of hops will be all tasty or not.

The hops bill looks pretty good.
I've never used Apollo, so I can't speak about it from personal experience.
Also, initially the Chinook seems an odd addition, but I think it might throw an interesting balancing factor in there with a pinely note (I think of Treehouse Sap, shich I know is not one of their more well known ones and pretty much unavailable if you aren't local). In that beer, the resiny, piney quality was a nice counterpoint the their other juice bombs.

I say go with it. It will make beer. And chances are, it will make at least a decent beer, with fair odds that it will be excellent! The likelihood of it sucking is very low. Make it and then tweak anything you don't love for next time.

 

[jordankempp]

Cool - I hope it comes out well for you. I am about 10 minutes from TG...... they turn out some very good beers. Just finished off my last bottle of King Sue the other night (Citra DIPA). King Sue, Pseudo Sue and Sosus are probably my favorites of theirs.

Sousa has been my favorite of the TG beers! In my opinion, it's one of the closest shots at any of the Treehouse offerings (at least that I know of).

 

[hopbrad]

The hops bill looks pretty good.
I've never used Apollo, so I can't speak about it from personal experience.
Also, initially the Chinook seems an odd addition, but I think it might throw an interesting balancing factor in there with a pinely note (I think of Treehouse Sap, shich I know is not one of their more well known ones and pretty much unavailable if you aren't local). In that beer, the resiny, piney quality was a nice counterpoint the their other juice bombs.

I say go with it. It will make beer. And chances are, it will make at least a decent beer, with fair odds that it will be excellent! The likelihood of it sucking is very low. Make it and then tweak anything you don't love for next time.

Apollo is a great hop. Dank with some Tropical citrus notes. Just not as bright as say, Citra or Amarillo. ive never used it on its own in a Smash but it pairs well with the Citrus/Tropical hops. and its cheap.

 

[Cavpilot2000]

Apollo is a great hop. Dank with some Tropical citrus notes. Just not as bright as say, Citra or Amarillo. ive never used it on its own in a Smash but it pairs well with the Citrus/Tropical hops. and its cheap.

Cheap is nice. I just walked away from my LHBS with over $35 in pellet hops for one batch of NEIPA (4 oz Azacca, 3 oz Galaxy, 3 oz Citra). That Azacca was almost $4 an ounce!

 

[jjw5015]

Cheap is nice. I just walked away from my LHBS with over $35 in pellet hops for one batch of NEIPA (4 oz Azacca, 3 oz Galaxy, 3 oz Citra). That Azacca was almost $4 an ounce!

#buyinbulk. I got 5 lbs for $80 on cyber Monday. Mosaic, citra, azacca, centennial, columbus

 

[Braufessor]

Cheap is nice. I just walked away from my LHBS with over $35 in pellet hops for one batch of NEIPA (4 oz Azacca, 3 oz Galaxy, 3 oz Citra). That Azacca was almost $4 an ounce!

Yeah - buy by the pound for sure. You could generally get a pound of each of those hops for around $70-$75 for all 3 pounds pretty easily.

So.... 5 times the amount of hops for 2 times the price.

That price on azacca is ridiculous..... you can get a pound of it for $19 here: http://www.farmhousebrewingsupply.com/azacca-1-lb-2015-sale/

 

[optimal_pizza]

Bulk is the way to go, Yakima Valley has some nice variety packs:
http://www.yakimavalleyhops.com/category_s/1985.htm
I picked up a pack specifically to attempt Braufessors NE recipe haha

 

[WiscoBrewer]

Yeah - buy by the pound for sure. You could generally get a pound of each of those hops for around $70-$75 for all 3 pounds pretty easily.



So.... 5 times the amount of hops for 2 times the price.



That price on azacca is ridiculous..... you can get a pound of it for $19 here: http://www.farmhousebrewingsupply.com/azacca-1-lb-2015-sale/

Ditto, farmhouse has a GREAT selection and good prices....sucks I live 25 milelsfrom them

 

[hopbrad]

Yeah - buy by the pound for sure. You could generally get a pound of each of those hops for around $70-$75 for all 3 pounds pretty easily.

So.... 5 times the amount of hops for 2 times the price.

That price on azacca is ridiculous..... you can get a pound of it for $19 here: http://www.farmhousebrewingsupply.com/azacca-1-lb-2015-sale/

+1 on farmhouse. Great selection, quality and customer service.

 

[shogun0660]

love this thread and recipe.
Recently used recommended grain bill for a 6 gallon batch
6 lb MO
6 lb 2 row
1 lb white wheat
and the flaked oats, barley, and wheat.
Hop schedule I used was taken from MACC recipe (Mosaic, Amarillo, citra, centennial), with 0.75 oz magnum at FWH, and MACC 1 oz each with 20 minutes left in boil. Used 2 oz of citra leaf in hop rocket prior to wort hitting fermenter.
Ended up with SG of 1.067.
Hit with 30 seconds of Oxygen.
Fermented with 2 packets of US 05, and kept temp at 63 F for first 4 days, slowly rose to 66, and then 68F.
Dry hopped at 4-7 with one oz of each of MACC, and again day 7-10 with one oz of each (both dry hops in fermenter).

Used distilled water, and added salts to get to a 75:150 SO4:Cl ratio.
Did not filter, did not use whirlfloc.
I do use electric brewery setup with HERMS (like kal's setup on electric brewery.com), which creates very clear wort.
The finished product was excellent tasting. But really close to no haze. Any idea why?
Only thing I can think of would be the HERMS?
Don't think it would be the yeast as US05 not very flocculent.
Maybe the hopping schedule? I remember reading on brulosophy where they compared a 20 minute addition to a hop stand, and the beers tasted identical, but the 20 minute addition finished a lot clearer. So maybe that's it. Any other ideas?
thanks! Happy brewing

 

[grassfeeder]

that's bizarre. First off, in my opinion, S-05 is the wrong yeast for this style but beyond that, when i brew these my wort in the fermentor is hazy as can be. I use about 18% split flaked oats and white wheat.

 

[BrewinSoldier]

I'm also gonna have to go with the yeast. US-05 is a pretty flocculant yeast that drops out quickly.

 

[gotbeer74]

I'm also gonna have to go with the yeast. US-05 is a pretty flocculant yeast that drops out quickly.

Beer pictured used US-05 and is quite hazy. The beer is much lighter in color then appears in the pic ( poor lighting in the basement). 2 oz of hops at 30 minutes, 3oz of hops @ 170 and 3 oz dry hopped. After 20 years of brewing this style is very intriguing and challenging to make. What a awesome hobby!!!!

View attachment 1485044633432.jpg

 

[stickyfinger]

love this thread and recipe.

Recently used recommended grain bill for a 6 gallon batch

6 lb MO

6 lb 2 row

1 lb white wheat

and the flaked oats, barley, and wheat.

Hop schedule I used was taken from MACC recipe (Mosaic, Amarillo, citra, centennial), with 0.75 oz magnum at FWH, and MACC 1 oz each with 20 minutes left in boil. Used 2 oz of citra leaf in hop rocket prior to wort hitting fermenter.

Ended up with SG of 1.067.

Hit with 30 seconds of Oxygen.

Fermented with 2 packets of US 05, and kept temp at 63 F for first 4 days, slowly rose to 66, and then 68F.

Dry hopped at 4-7 with one oz of each of MACC, and again day 7-10 with one oz of each (both dry hops in fermenter).



Used distilled water, and added salts to get to a 75:150 SO4:Cl ratio.

Did not filter, did not use whirlfloc.

I do use electric brewery setup with HERMS (like kal's setup on electric brewery.com), which creates very clear wort.

The finished product was excellent tasting. But really close to no haze. Any idea why?

Only thing I can think of would be the HERMS?

Don't think it would be the yeast as US05 not very flocculent.

Maybe the hopping schedule? I remember reading on brulosophy where they compared a 20 minute addition to a hop stand, and the beers tasted identical, but the 20 minute addition finished a lot clearer. So maybe that's it. Any other ideas?

thanks! Happy brewing

maybe your pH is extreme? that is perplexing

 

[motosapiens]

Dry hopped at 4-7 with one oz of each of MACC, and again day 7-10 with one oz of each (both dry hops in fermenter).

Used distilled water, and added salts to get to a 75:150 SO4:Cl ratio.
Did not filter, did not use whirlfloc.
I do use electric brewery setup with HERMS (like kal's setup on electric brewery.com), which creates very clear wort.
The finished product was excellent tasting. But really close to no haze. Any idea why?

in my experience over 26 years of homebrewing, modern yeasts are much fresher and more vigorous than they used to be. 48 hours after pitching with 1318 my gravity was already in the low teens, so you may have dryhopped after all the active fermentation had taken place. It seems to me that is the big difference in haze vs no-haze in my beers, is whether the dryhop happens with active yeast, or when you are down within a point or two of FG.

 

[saltymirv]

in my experience over 26 years of homebrewing, modern yeasts are much fresher and more vigorous than they used to be. 48 hours after pitching with 1318 my gravity was already in the low teens, so you may have dryhopped after all the active fermentation had taken place. It seems to me that is the big difference in haze vs no-haze in my beers, is whether the dryhop happens with active yeast, or when you are down within a point or two of FG.

I had a different experience. I dry hopped during active fermentation and then again in the fermenter post-fermentation. When racking, it looked clear and also poured clear. Then I keg hopped it and thats when it turned into the hazy, OJ w/ pulp looking thing that is NEIPA

Here's a pic, it's been in the keg about 6 weeks now. No sign of clearing. The hops have dropped off a little bit, but its got that galaxy dank and fruit juiciness

 

[BrewinSoldier]

Latest batch

It's weird how everyones brew seems to turn out quite different in appearance, but this right here is what I'm after... BEAUTIFUL is all I can say..I've had 3 different beers from Treehouse over the past two days(AWESOME GIRLFRIEND), and I simply love these beers. Awesome haze, awesome flavor and aroma with the perfect amount of bitterness, but soooooo damn smooth. Pushes me that much harder to make this style.

Edit: pic didn't show up but refer to post #2 in this thread. A.K.A. Brau's beauty

 

[motosapiens]

I had a different experience. I dry hopped during active fermentation and then again in the fermenter post-fermentation. When racking, it looked clear and also poured clear. Then I keg hopped it and thats when it turned into the hazy, OJ w/ pulp looking thing that is NEIPA

Here's a pic, it's been in the keg about 6 weeks now. No sign of clearing. The hops have dropped off a little bit, but its got that galaxy dank and fruit juiciness

yeah see, that looks like dryhop haze to me, not that pulpy ooky orange-juice looking stuff. But it is very interesting that you say the haze developed later. I have dry-hopped 20-30 batches in the last 2 years, and there was a dramatic difference in the haze that i got from the ones that were dryhopped 2 days after pitching. OTOH, I have ONLY done that with the london esb yeast, and I have not used that yeast for much of anything else, so I have very limited data points.

I think more research is needed. I volunteer to help you taste-test some samples.

 

[BrewinSoldier]

Beer pictured used US-05 and is quite hazy. The beer is much lighter in color then appears in the pic ( poor lighting in the basement). 2 oz of hops at 30 minutes, 3oz of hops @ 170 and 3 oz dry hopped. After 20 years of brewing this style is very intriguing and challenging to make. What a awesome hobby!!!!

Hmm...How fresh is that beer. Give it a week in the keg and see if it clears up. Although, I have used US-05 in a few wheat beers and it stayed pretty hazy(as a wheat beer should), so maybe it has to do with the grains...Idk...so many variables.

 

[saltymirv]

yeah see, that looks like dryhop haze to me, not that pulpy ooky orange-juice looking stuff. But it is very interesting that you say the haze developed later. I have dry-hopped 20-30 batches in the last 2 years, and there was a dramatic difference in the haze that i got from the ones that were dryhopped 2 days after pitching. OTOH, I have ONLY done that with the london esb yeast, and I have not used that yeast for much of anything else, so I have very limited data points.

I think more research is needed. I volunteer to help you taste-test some samples.

It had the super OJ haze for about a week after keg hopping and its settled down since. The flavor was also really harsh following the keg hops, not pleasant to drink. The beer peaked at ~3 weeks in the keg for me

 

[Braufessor]

love this thread and recipe.
Recently used recommended grain bill for a 6 gallon batch
6 lb MO
6 lb 2 row
1 lb white wheat
and the flaked oats, barley, and wheat.
Hop schedule I used was taken from MACC recipe (Mosaic, Amarillo, citra, centennial), with 0.75 oz magnum at FWH, and MACC 1 oz each with 20 minutes left in boil. Used 2 oz of citra leaf in hop rocket prior to wort hitting fermenter.
Ended up with SG of 1.067.
Hit with 30 seconds of Oxygen.
Fermented with 2 packets of US 05, and kept temp at 63 F for first 4 days, slowly rose to 66, and then 68F.
Dry hopped at 4-7 with one oz of each of MACC, and again day 7-10 with one oz of each (both dry hops in fermenter).

Used distilled water, and added salts to get to a 75:150 SO4:Cl ratio.
Did not filter, did not use whirlfloc.
I do use electric brewery setup with HERMS (like kal's setup on electric brewery.com), which creates very clear wort.
The finished product was excellent tasting. But really close to no haze. Any idea why?
Only thing I can think of would be the HERMS?
Don't think it would be the yeast as US05 not very flocculent.
Maybe the hopping schedule? I remember reading on brulosophy where they compared a 20 minute addition to a hop stand, and the beers tasted identical, but the 20 minute addition finished a lot clearer. So maybe that's it. Any other ideas?
thanks! Happy brewing

I don't necessarily think it is the yeast. I have seen many US05 NEIPA's..... it can definitely make a hazy beer. I have used 1056/1272 to make this beer and it was cloudy/hazy. Others have used 007 and that drops like a rock.... but can still make hazy beers.

The one variable that I don't really see in your process that seems different enough to possibly be one of the reasons is that you added hops at 20 minutes in the boil and did not add them in a hop stand at the end. To me, that really seems like the only variable that is different enough to have made an impact.

So, if you are looking for a variable to change... I would move that 20 minute addition to after flame out... and do a hop stand with it.

That said.... I agree with the sentiment that "haze/cloudy" is not the ultimate goal.... flavor is. Nothing wrong with it coming out "clear" - it is about making an IPA that you like.