stickyfinger
Well-Known Member
I plan to throw in some Denali if I am looking for a bit of a pineapple character from now on. It's a nice hop if you get a good batch. I only used it in dryhop, not the kettle.
New England IPA "Northeast" style IPA
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I plan to throw in some Denali if I am looking for a bit of a pineapple character from now on. It's a nice hop if you get a good batch. I only used it in dryhop, not the kettle.
Try paint straining bags when racking to your keg.
I don't cold crash and I do all my primary/regular dry hopping in the same carboy with loose pellets. I just set my carboy up on the counter a day before transferring and then put two paint straining bags around the end of the tube going into the keg. The first bag will catch a good amount of hop gunk, hardly anything gets through to the second bag, and even less makes it into the keg.
I place my 7.9gal bucket into the 10gal kettle to cold crash. A $5 tote from Wal-Mart would work too. Couple bags of ice and 24hrs. If I do secondary, ill cold crash twice.
That's a great idea for cold crashing if you don't have a ferm chamber or a fridge or either is full. I'd have never thought of that.
stickyfinger
Well-Known Member
Just tasted this after 24 hrs in keg. I can already tell that it is a lot more clear than my NE IPAs that have no kettle hops and that use yeasts other than WLP002. I would put money on the fact that WLP002 drops out better as the reason. I like the yeast character a lot. I'd recommend trying WLP002 if you want a beer that has less yeast (without fining), is very round and smooth and has a little more richness to it. It's really a great yeast. The more I use it, the more I like it. I'm thinking if I start using whirfloc again and WLP002 that I'll get only a slight haze in my next NE IPA. I'm wondering if the super rich hop flavor is from the hop stand or the hop selection (been awhile since I've used the citra, mosaic, galaxy combo.L)
stickyfinger
Well-Known Member
Thinking of trying this as my next beer (after my Helles Bock tomorrow.) What do you think about using the Citra-Mosaic-Galaxy combo in this? I do have the other hops you mention, so I could just follow it exactly as well. Second, I'm wondering the value in adding oats at this point. Is it mainly for the flavor? The Brulosophy XBMT seemed to hint that they don't really add to mouthfeel I think. Do you disagree with that? Third, do you think the wheat adds to the head retention?
![Craft A Brew - Safale S-04 Dry Yeast - Fermentis - English Ale Dry Yeast - For English and American Ales and Hard Apple Ciders - Ingredients for Home Brewing - Beer Making Supplies - [1 Pack]](https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/41fVGNh6JfL._SL500_.jpg)
Cavpilot2000
Well-Known Member
The spoils of today's adventure (glasses too)!
The real deal on the left, my Treehouse tribute on the right.
The real deal on the left, my Treehouse tribute on the right.
OP
OP
Hops - As much as I love the Citra/Mosaic/Galaxy in the NE IPA..... I have to say, I honestly have not loved it in an Amber. I have tried multiple times to essentially make my NE IPA "red"........ I did not love any of them. I think my NE IPA comes off as "sweet" a bit from the hop combo - i.e. - "juicy." When that combines with the caramel of an amber ale - it just does not turn out the way you would hope it does. I personally like the Horizon/Cascade/Centennial/FF combo above. I do think I will play around a bit with the amounts of those hops - but, I am going to keep that combo for now.
Oats..... I don't "disagree" with the xberiment. But, I have never done it myself. I am going to brew an amber on sunday again. I feel that the one I have now could be "fuller" richer, creamier..... So, I am going to go to 15% flaked. I might also get some carapils in there possibly. I wonder about lactose??????? I will say this - the above recipe will give you a very good amber ale. For me, it is 90% of the way to what I want, and "tweaking" it should get me the rest of the way.
Wheat - that is my theory..... It is there for head retention, fullness, malty/more complexity. Whether that is reality, or in my head - I can't say for sure. Until I get it precisely where I want it.... I can't really compare it back head to head with other versions. It is kind of like the water profile on the NE IPA..... I played around with it a lot. Eventually I did 3 versions head to head with chloride:sulfate (75:150, 150:75 and 125:125) When I did that - I found that there just was not a very significant difference. Could be the same with some of this grain bill stuff.
Definitely let me know what you do, and how it turns out. I feel like what I have above is pretty close to a really good Amber.
Cavpilot2000
Well-Known Member
FWIW, I use 1 lb (7%) flaked wheat and 1 lb (7%) flaked oats. I think they are both important.
stickyfinger
Well-Known Member
I've often heard that Centennial is a kind of drying hop, maybe from you? Didn't think the Horizon as bittering would be detectable as dryer, but that is interesting. I see you're point on the caramely, maillardy character being inappropriate with the CMG hop combo though. The CMG seems to be very juicy, rich and full and could be overpowering with the malty-caramel. Jamil's classic imperial red ale also used Centennial-Cascade I think in Brewing Classic Styles, so that makes sense.
I wonder if you just need to boost it up to 1.065 or 1.070 or maybe use a less attenuative yeast?
The Brulosophy XBMT was also a little down on Carapils. Do you have much experience with iCarapils? I used to use it but felt it didn't add much. Never did a side-by-side though.
I've also been wondering. Also want to try a milkshake IPA for fun sometime. lactose could be a good addition, but it seems like cheating somehow... ha!
OK, I think I'll more or less stick with what you on malt and hops. I might drop the oats though. I think I'll use WLP002 again, as it seems to work well and leave more of a full flavor, plus it drops out and leaves no yeasty flavor at all.
I really like the hoppy amber/red ipa style. I made a strong ale/imperial red awhile ago with lots of crystal, melanoidin, etc. and a big hop stand. it was so rich and malty and full. it's worth pursuing i think.
stickyfinger
Well-Known Member
What do you base the flaked oats comment on? I really didn't get anything from using oats. I did "feel" the wort accidentally when using 20% oats in an NE IPA and it literally felt "slimy." However, the final beer didn't really have a thick mouthfeel to me. Wheat I am more convinced can have an impact on the head.
stickyfinger
Well-Known Member
interesting. how do the Simcoe hops come across. I've liked my past all-Simcoe beers. I got a lot of tangerine-like character with a subtle dank-resinous character. Won a big ol' trophy with an all-Simcoe pale ale a few years ago. great hop.
Cavpilot2000
Well-Known Member
I agree with the wheat totally.
The oats add something hard to pin down for me, but I did a tropical fruit bomb IPA clone (based on Harpoon Hoppy Adventure, which is a clear IPA in the NEIPA flavor spectrum), and I did my first NEIPA with the oats, and I felt it added a body element that was missing from the Hoppy Adventure "Clone". Now that may have been due to other factors, including wheat, but I guess I've always figured if an oatmeal stout can benefit from oats in the body and mouthfeel department, shouldn't an NEIPA?
I also feel that they contribute to a stable haze, whereas I feel like the hop haze is unstable and settles out over time.
I freely admit I could be totally wrong, and both of these "contributions" could be attributable to other factors. I haven't experimented enough to isolate the variables, but I don't know that I have to or even why I would except out of curiosity, because I feel like I have settle on my NEIPA grain bill and don't feel any need to adjust it because whatever he different elements contribute, they work in unison for a wonderful result.
So, in a nutshell: take my considering the oats as important with a grain of salt - I could be full of it - all I know is I'm making damned fine NEIPAs right now, and that was my goal. Mission accomplished.
stickyfinger
Well-Known Member
I agree with the wheat totally.
The oats add something hard to pin down for me, but I did a tropical fruit bomb IPA clone (based on Harpoon Hoppy Adventure, which is a clear IPA in the NEIPA flavor spectrum), and I did my first NEIPA with the oats, and I felt it added a body element that was missing from the Hoppy Adventure "Clone". Now that may have been due to other factors, including wheat, but I guess I've always figured if an oatmeal stout can benefit from oats in the body and mouthfeel department, shouldn't an NEIPA?
I also feel that they contribute to a stable haze, whereas I feel like the hop haze is unstable and settles out over time.
I freely admit I could be totally wrong, and both of these "contributions" could be attributable to other factors. I haven't experimented enough to isolate the variables, but I don't know that I have to or even why I would except out of curiosity, because I feel like I have settle on my NEIPA grain bill and don't feel any need to adjust it because whatever he different elements contribute, they work in unison for a wonderful result.
So, in a nutshell: take my considering the oats as important with a grain of salt - I could be full of it - all I know is I'm making damned fine NEIPAs right now, and that was my goal. Mission accomplished.
I feel the same on developing the malt bill. It is really hard to know what is really important for the flavor and mouthfeel. I've done a lot of combos. Braufessor has mentioned he is not sure what is important in the malt bill. I think that a very wide spectrum of malt bills can produce a near-perfect NE IPA. I think the hop bill and the timing of the hops is probably way more important. it's still fun to play with different malt bills though.
Seems like more and more of us have kind of more or less settled on a standard malt bill. We use that malt bill over and over and then change other factors. Maybe the malt bill is not really that big of deal as long as you are within a certain range of color and flavor? I now use no oats or wheat and have centered in a beer with pretty full flavor and good mouthfeel. I HAVE adjusted water chemistry and yeast though.
Update on this one; after a few pours, it is nowhere near as cloudy but still quite hazy and very tasty. I definitely have never had a 3-week grain-to-glass this delicious!
Cavpilot2000
Well-Known Member
I absolutely agree. In a beer where the hops are SO dominant, I think the grain bill takes a back seat, big time. In fact I would go so far as to say if you took my grain bill, yours, and Braufessors, and used the same hops schedule and water adjustment, we would end up with nearly indistinguishable beers. Any detectable difference would be a nuance.
stickyfinger
Well-Known Member
OYL-057 is fascinating! what did you ferment at in terms of temp. It claims 98F with no flavor difference! crazy!
stickyfinger
Well-Known Member
I think you are right on that. I've tried a lot of malt combos and the hops have a much more dominant character. I've opted to simplify my malt bill and boost the light caramel to very high levels. Others have used half pale malt and half character-base-malt. others use lots of different malts, like Brau. I don't remember yours, but my most vivid memories of my NE IPA attempts have a lot more to do with what hops I used rather than the malt bill. Don't get me wrong, there is maybe room for nuance in the malt bill and you can screw it up by adding a ton of melanoidin maybe, etc., but hops are king.
I'd like to do a comparison of several malt bills that are the same SRM value but arrive at it in different ways and see how much difference you can tell. Once you start getting into the copper to amberish range it is a different story, but these lighter versions all are pretty similar I think. (within reason)
OP
OP
I can't disagree with this. I have played around with a number of things. I don't know that the grain bill is a "critical" component in this. One of these days..... 100% 2 Row, just out of curiosity.
I just started it at 68 and then ramped it up to 75. Maybe I'll test that 90F+ on another batch. I have 2 ferm chambers and can do 15 gallon batches so it would be a pretty easy and fun experiment to do a side by side with one at standard temps and another at the ~90F range.
stickyfinger
Well-Known Member
I did a 9:1 2-row-carapils version but in a session IPA and it was absolutely delicious. It was super light and maybe didn't have as much sweetness, but it was excellent. Gets even better if you can up the OG and tolerate the higher ABV!
stickyfinger
Well-Known Member
by the way, if you're image are posting sideways, i've found that i need to reduce the size and it works well. you can't just rotate it and then repost. damn technology. the super resolution we can get now on our "phones" is foiling this ancient fora technology...
stickyfinger
Well-Known Member
I'd love to see the results of 68 throughout and 98 throughout...
As you said, plenty of tangerine and a proper amount of dank. A lot of grapefruit, but some nice apricot and pineapple notes coming through to back things up. I recommend the 006. This beer is very full/silky with about 3.5% GNOs as the only adjunct. Also, thanks for the tips on the images, I'm new to posting pics.
Not sure when I'll brew next but how about 68 & 90? I just tape the temp sensor to the outside of the carboy so it may fluctuate a few degrees from what is going on in the carboy. 90 is still a significant difference from 68 but it gives enough cushion to ensure that it will never creep above 98 at any time.
I agree but nuance is important...if not a focus. Without nuance beers would just....taste the same. What Tired Hands uses for malt or Suarez Family Brewing or Tree House is what sets them apart. A subtle cracker, bready, or cereal smell or taste can be a signature that sets a beer apart from others. And in a side by side you may find one malt flavor that you prefer over others even as subtle as it is.
It's hard to get out from under these big hops schedules. Pallet fatigue hits fast and then the hops dominate.
Yeah...I've settled on using 10 to 50% wheat in most of my beers. I just like it. The nice fluffy head it produces turns me on. 2-Row, wheat and a small percentage of crystal or other base malt are all I add. Three grains at the most usually. The crystal or other base malt are mainly there for color but do make a flavor and aroma contribution. I enjoy the doughy smell wheat adds to a beer or the crisp sweetness of crystal malt.
My latest trend is to imagine a particular hop and how I think it should be presented....whether it's the beer color, aroma, or flavor.
I know this logic sounds stupid but Denali...it's a National Park and big mountain...so 70, 20, 10 of 2-row, white wheat and Marris Otter...I was going for a sort of bready...nutty...earthy background flavor....the land around the mountain seems to push the peak higher. I know...a loose interpretation....but that's how I decide my grain bills.
Nelson Sauvin for instance....make a light colored malt...80 and 20 of 2-row and white wheat. White wine is light colored. The malt bill steps out of the way but the doughy wheat still peaks through.
I do this to make up for my lack of understanding these things we are talking about. Sometimes it works. It just helps me justify my intent although I don't ever usually describe my beers to people this way.
plazola86
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Hops - As much as I love the Citra/Mosaic/Galaxy in the NE IPA..... I have to say, I honestly have not loved it in an Amber. I have tried multiple times to essentially make my NE IPA "red"........ I did not love any of them. I think my NE IPA comes off as "sweet" a bit from the hop combo - i.e. - "juicy." When that combines with the caramel of an amber ale - it just does not turn out the way you would hope it does. I personally like the Horizon/Cascade/Centennial/FF combo above. I do think I will play around a bit with the amounts of those hops - but, I am going to keep that combo for now.
Definitely let me know what you do, and how it turns out. I feel like what I have above is pretty close to a really good Amber.
Have you tried Modern Times Blazing World? Its a hoppy amber and they use Nelson, Simcoe, Mosaic. One of my favorite beers from them, that hop combo works really well in their amber. Its not an NE IPA level of hops though, its more balanced like a pale ale.
Anyone want to help me figure out why my first batch had this huge, hit you over the head hop aroma, while my second batch, while a tasty beer, doesn't pack the same hop aroma punch?
Here are all the details of both batches. Note that the first, I was a bit more efficient, so that's why the high SG and I must have hit the ABV limit with 1318, so I'm assuming that's why I got such low attenuation. I wasn't planning on such a high FG, but it actually wasn't that sweet at all. For the next batch, I wanted a lower gravity beer and I wanted to try lowering the hops by about 10% to see if I could tell the difference. But I'd be shocked if that's what caused the difference since most recipes in this thread have way less hops than my batch 2.
Could it be the tap vs distilled water? I'm assuming lots of people in here are using tap.
I'm assuming it's not the lower gravity because lots of people are doing lower gravity beers. I'm really at a loss here. Any thoughts?
Here are all the details of both batches. Note that the first, I was a bit more efficient, so that's why the high SG and I must have hit the ABV limit with 1318, so I'm assuming that's why I got such low attenuation. I wasn't planning on such a high FG, but it actually wasn't that sweet at all. For the next batch, I wanted a lower gravity beer and I wanted to try lowering the hops by about 10% to see if I could tell the difference. But I'd be shocked if that's what caused the difference since most recipes in this thread have way less hops than my batch 2.
Could it be the tap vs distilled water? I'm assuming lots of people in here are using tap.
I'm assuming it's not the lower gravity because lots of people are doing lower gravity beers. I'm really at a loss here. Any thoughts?
EndOfLine
Well-Known Member
Anyone want to help me figure out why my first batch had this huge, hit you over the head hop aroma, while my second batch, while a tasty beer, doesn't pack the same hop aroma punch?
Here are all the details of both batches. Note that the first, I was a bit more efficient, so that's why the high SG and I must have hit the ABV limit with 1318, so I'm assuming that's why I got such low attenuation. I wasn't planning on such a high FG, but it actually wasn't that sweet at all. For the next batch, I wanted a lower gravity beer and I wanted to try lowering the hops by about 10% to see if I could tell the difference. But I'd be shocked if that's what caused the difference since most recipes in this thread have way less hops than my batch 2.
Could it be the tap vs distilled water? I'm assuming lots of people in here are using tap.
I'm assuming it's not the lower gravity because lots of people are doing lower gravity beers. I'm really at a loss here. Any thoughts?
I am Assuming that beer two did not suffer hoppyness loss from oxidation.
The higher abv will absorb more hop oil is the only reason that comes to mind.
Can you describe the flavor and aroma you got from using all Simcoe? I am thinking about trying this as my next single hop NEIPA.
Edit: Just saw your post a page back, sounds delicious!
They were pretty much treated very similarly after fermentation.
And it's the higher ABV one that had a huge hop aroma. The lower ABV doesn't.
stickyfinger
Well-Known Member
EndOfLine
Well-Known Member
Yes. More abv means more hoppyness extracted faster
stickyfinger
Well-Known Member
We are all assuming that you used the same "lot" or "batch" of hops in both. That could make a big difference I think.
hopbrad
Well-Known Member
I usually go with something in the 1.062-1.066 range. this time upped it to 1.072 for more of a double IPA along with adding a small % of vienna and crystal.
76% weyerman Pale malt
9% pale wheat
8% flaked oats
4% Vienna
3% carared
bittered with columbus. late additions 50% Citra and 50% blend of Centennial, Cascade, Apollo, Columbus.
half is yeasted with wlp644, other half with Conan.
Dry hopping half with El Dorado and Simcoe. And maybe Citra and Mosaic on the other. havent totally made up my mind on the dry hopage
I also upped both the gypsum and CC addition. went to 200 chloride/160 Sulfate
76% weyerman Pale malt
9% pale wheat
8% flaked oats
4% Vienna
3% carared
bittered with columbus. late additions 50% Citra and 50% blend of Centennial, Cascade, Apollo, Columbus.
half is yeasted with wlp644, other half with Conan.
Dry hopping half with El Dorado and Simcoe. And maybe Citra and Mosaic on the other. havent totally made up my mind on the dry hopage
I also upped both the gypsum and CC addition. went to 200 chloride/160 Sulfate
OP
OP
Anyone want to help me figure out why my first batch had this huge, hit you over the head hop aroma, while my second batch, while a tasty beer, doesn't pack the same hop aroma punch?
Here are all the details of both batches. Note that the first, I was a bit more efficient, so that's why the high SG and I must have hit the ABV limit with 1318, so I'm assuming that's why I got such low attenuation. I wasn't planning on such a high FG, but it actually wasn't that sweet at all. For the next batch, I wanted a lower gravity beer and I wanted to try lowering the hops by about 10% to see if I could tell the difference. But I'd be shocked if that's what caused the difference since most recipes in this thread have way less hops than my batch 2.
Could it be the tap vs distilled water? I'm assuming lots of people in here are using tap.
I'm assuming it's not the lower gravity because lots of people are doing lower gravity beers. I'm really at a loss here. Any thoughts?
I would look at the two things that stand out as the most significantly different in the two beers:
1.) Water - you say you used "tap water" in one....... did you do anything to get rid of the chlorine/chloramine in the water? That could certainly have an adverse effect on the way the hops come across and are perceived. Also, you don't list the level of bicarbonate in your water profile...... just the other basic ions. I know that my higher bicarbonate water makes lousy IPA's if I use it in a high amount. Those might be a couple areas to consider.
** Also, noticed that your Na is kind of high on the tap water profile......Is this water from a water softener? If so, that does not make good brewing water.
2.) The most striking difference in the two beers to me is the Final Gravity. 1.028 vs. 1.011 is a massive difference. I think there would be a huge difference in the way those two beers are perceived when you drink them. That could be a possibility too.
I've been meaning to share a technique I've been using recently to cold crash with virtually no oxygen exposure. It doesn't require hooking up CO2, a second regulator, or any extra equipment other than $2 worth of drilled stoppers.
I think cold crashing this beer is important. Before I started cold crashing, I would get at least a week or two of harsh bite from suspended hop particles. Sometimes it never really went away. I would also have a bunch of sludge at the bottom of the keg when it kicked, which would mess up my beer lines, etc.
I also think avoiding oxygen exposure is very important to this style, and I'm just not OK with sucking a bunch of air into the headspace while cold crashing. Before I started doing this, I could actually see a thin dark layer of oxidized beer forming at the top of the fermentor while crashing.
So, here's what I came up with for storing some CO2 from fermentation, and feeding it back into the primary while cold crashing. I had seen some other threads on this talking about mylar balloons and all kinds of stuff, but I think this is a more elegant, sanitary approach.
Here's how it works: I start off with the blowoff tube (the yellowed one) in a normal jar or whatever. Once I am past any potential blowoff risk, but still actively fermenting, I put that hose into the top of the first jug, which starts off filled to the top with star san. The CO2 pressure pushes that star san through the jumper line into the second jug, which fills up and then just allows excess CO2 to bubble out into the atmosphere. The first jug is now full of CO2. This is what's pictured below.
When I start to cold crash, the headspace contracts, which sucks star san from the second jug back into the first, and CO2 from the first jug back into the fermentor. That fermentor is a thin-walled plastic Fermonster, and there's little enough negative pressure that it doesn't even buckle. At the end of the cold crash, the first jug is filled back up about 1/2 to 2/3 of the way.
When I'm done cold crashing, I just take the stopper out of the fermentor and hang a CO2 line in there, trickling CO2 to maintain positive pressure as the beer siphons out. There's no rush of air when I take the stopper out because there's no negative pressure. I siphon into a keg that has been filled with star san and purged with CO2, so the beer comes into no contact with oxygen.
I do all of my dry hopping loose in primary, but by cold crashing I get almost no trub or hop matter into the keg. When the keg kicks, the bottom is nearly clean.
The one thing that may be tricky is finding a double-drilled stopper. The guy at my LHBS has a drill bit in the back that does it, so he just gave me those two stoppers for $1 each. I think I've seen threads about people doing it themselves with a piece of copper pipe or something. I guess a normal drill bit doesn't work too well. The jugs are 1-gallon fermentors I had lying around.
Anyway, hope someone finds this helpful. This is the best balance I've found between (relative) simplicity and feeling like I'm doing the best I can do avoid O2 and improve my beer.
Been late catching up on this thread - but this is bloody brilliant!!
In the same kegerator so carbed to the same level.
Ok, but clearly there are lots of low ABV NE IPAs that have huge hop aroma.
I'm pretty sure the mosaic and amarillo were the same, but I believe I had to open a new pound of citra for at least some of the hops in batch 2. But if anything it should be fresher.
1) Yes, I use campden tablets to remove chlorine. Water authority told me they don't use chloramines here.
Bicarbonate is 92 ppm in my tap water. After the mineral and lactic addition, Brun water says my mashing water profile is -57.8 for Batch 2. With the distilled water in Batch 1, the mashing water was -44.6.
No softener. The Na comes in with my tap water.
Maybe I should try diluting my tap water with distilled and see how that is.
2) yes the FG were very different, but lots of people are making low ABV/low FG NE IPAs with huge hop aroma. If the high FG batch was the bad one, I could have pointed to that, but it doesn't make any sense to me that the low FG one, which is more normal, is the one with low hop aroma.
OP
OP
I don't know.... I could see the high FG beer coming across with a higher perception of hops. NE IPA's kind of hang their hat on the perception of being "full" and "juicy"..... the increased body and sweetness in the high FG beer could combine in a way that enhances those perceptions in the hops.
Meanwhile, the 1.011 could (especially by comparison to the 1.028 beer) come across as thinner and with less "juicy" impact. I guess I would fully expect a bigger beer with more hops to come across that way when being compared to a beer with a dramatically lower FG and less hops.
As for the water, that bicarbonate - neutralized or not - is probably not anything that is going to help the beer. The more you have to "do" to your water to get it in line...... well, that is just the more that might potentially affect the finished product.
I still think it is probably one of those two things. If you are really curious, you should brew 2 batches of the exact same beer - one with tap profile and one with RO water profile. Then you could definitely check the water profile off the list as meaningless, or meaningful.
Or, brew 2 batches of the same beer and use the two different hopping schedules. Right now, you are kind of comparing apples to oranges a little bit.
