New England IPA "Northeast" style IPA

[marchuk96]

I'd like to get some advice on grain and hop bills for a brew I plan to do this Saturday, July 6. I have 19 batches of this style under my belt and have used plenty of Galaxy, Citra, and Mosaic, so I want to steer clear of them unless they're only used in a supporting role. I have also used flaked oats in most beers, so I wouldn't mind using just a little or none at all.

What I am definitely doing:

Imperial A24 yeast
Dry hopping after soft crashing
Whirlpooling. I am open to temperature suggestions. I have tried a variety of temps and times already.
A little honey malt
Shooting for ~1.014 final gravity
6% ABV

I currently have the following hops but will buy something else if I can get them in time:

12 oz Amarillo
8 oz Lemon Drop
1.25 lb Vic Secret
2.5 lb Mosaic
1 lb Mandarina
2 lb Galaxy
2 lb Huell Melon

I wouldn't mind incorporating Idaho 7 and/or Nelson.

Anyone want to help me out?

You could do a strawberry mango melon bomb...go vic secret ,mosaic, and huel melon...I always get strawberry from Vic secret and then some mango and melon notes from the others...think that might work!!

 

[beervoid]

I'd like to get some advice on grain and hop bills for a brew I plan to do this Saturday, July 6. I have 19 batches of this style under my belt and have used plenty of Galaxy, Citra, and Mosaic, so I want to steer clear of them unless they're only used in a supporting role. I have also used flaked oats in most beers, so I wouldn't mind using just a little or none at all.

What I am definitely doing:

Imperial A24 yeast
Dry hopping after soft crashing
Whirlpooling. I am open to temperature suggestions. I have tried a variety of temps and times already.
A little honey malt
Shooting for ~1.014 final gravity
6% ABV

I currently have the following hops but will buy something else if I can get them in time:

12 oz Amarillo
8 oz Lemon Drop
1.25 lb Vic Secret
2.5 lb Mosaic
1 lb Mandarina
2 lb Galaxy
2 lb Huell Melon

I wouldn't mind incorporating Idaho 7 and/or Nelson.

Anyone want to help me out?

I wouldnt worry about the wp temps. Research has shown optimal extraction of oil between KO and 185f anything below that and you risk dms and other problems.
Imho the only reason to worry about temps is bitterness extraction.
Most of the flavor and aroma is from dry hopping anyway so i'm very skeptical about the added value of whirlpool hops and if there is really a big difference.
Simple to test this by tasting your beer pre dryhop. Do you taste/smell much difference?

 

[VirginiaHops1]

I wouldnt worry about the wp temps. Research has shown optimal extraction of oil between KO and 185f anything below that and you risk dms and other problems.
Imho the only reason to worry about temps is bitterness extraction.
Most of the flavor and aroma is from dry hopping anyway so i'm very skeptical about the added value of whirlpool hops and if there is really a big difference.
Simple to test this by tasting your beer pre dryhop. Do you taste/smell much difference?

Well it's just one data point but one of Janish's blog posts he did a batch with only a massive dry hop and nothing else, and he said it did not taste very good. So I think hot side(specifically whirlpool temps) does add a significant amount of flavor. I always taste the sample I pull to check FG before my dry hop and usually it tastes extremely flavorful.

 

[beervoid]

Well it's just one data point but one of Janish's blog posts he did a batch with only a massive dry hop and nothing else, and he said it did not taste very good. So I think hot side(specifically whirlpool temps) does add a significant amount of flavor.

It was just one data point and perhaps that particular batch was just not very flavorfull.
I always taste my beers pre dry hop and never get much hoppy flavor. I used to whirlpool with 12oz in 5 gallons and only that time I could say I got some hop aroma. It does something yes but not enough to worry about temps.

 

[VirginiaHops1]

It was just one data point and perhaps that particular batch was just not very flavorfull.
I always taste my beers pre dry hop and never get much hoppy flavor. I used to whirlpool with 12oz in 5 gallons and only that time I could say I got some hop aroma. It does something yes but not enough to worry about temps.

So do you have your own data points where you've done a beer with just a big dryhop and had good results? One is enough for me to not try it and mess up a batch when I've had great results with whirlpool + dry hop barring evidence to the contrary.

 

[kevink]

So do you have your own data points where you've done a beer with just a big dryhop and had good results?

I have done the opposite and put everything into two whirlpools. No hops were added to the fermenter at all. It was by far my worst NEIPA that I have ever brewed. It actually didn't even end up as an NEIPA even though the rest of the recipe was tried and true. It cleared and the hop aroma and flavor was missing. Mouthfeel sucked, too.

 

[VirginiaHops1]

I have done the opposite and put everything into two whirlpools. No hops were added to the fermenter at all. It was by far my worst NEIPA that I have ever brewed. It actually didn't even end up as an NEIPA even though the rest of the recipe was tried and true. It cleared and the hop aroma and flavor was missing. Mouthfeel sucked, too.

Yeah I think a NEIPA has to have dry hops to get that big hop oil saturation in the final beer which I'm sure affects mouthfeel. When people post pics of their pre dryhop sample vs post dryhop there is a decided change in haziness.

 

[kevink]

I love Nelson but I’d hold off a bit on using it until the 2019 lot hits for HBers. It should be soon because I know some big name NEIPA breweries, includinb Treehouse, recieved some earlier this month.

With what you have I have a few Combos I really like;
1) Amarillo/mosaic at a 2:1 ratio
2) Amarillo/mandarina/Huell at 1:1:2

Thanks, @Dgallo. The Amarillo/mandarina/Huell looks interesting. What can I expect with that combo?

 

[Dgallo]

Thanks, @Dgallo. The Amarillo/mandarina/Huell looks interesting. What can I expect with that combo?

Paired with a24 you’ll get orange citrus with Mellon notes and depending on the lot of mandarina and Amarillo you may get a nice floral undertones

 

[couchsending]

I wouldnt worry about the wp temps. Research has shown optimal extraction of oil between KO and 185f anything below that and you risk dms and other problems.
Imho the only reason to worry about temps is bitterness extraction.
Most of the flavor and aroma is from dry hopping anyway so i'm very skeptical about the added value of whirlpool hops and if there is really a big difference.
Simple to test this by tasting your beer pre dryhop. Do you taste/smell much difference?

Actually you want to get BELOW 80c relatively quickly to prevent the conversion of SMM into DMS if you haven’t boiled it all off, not keep it above. DMS won’t form below 80c.
You just need to keep it above 60c for sanitary concerns. I have slight issues with DMS as I boil at 201* and it takes twice as long to get rid of it at that temp. I will always cool whirlpool temps relatively quickly to 175. Probably not as critical for those of you around sea level.

Another interesting thing I’ve heard recently is for people that are doing the absurdly low whirlpool temps is you’re potentially not denaturing the enzymes in the hops that can break down dextrins and cause overattenuation. So essentially hop creep could even be happening before adding any hops to the fermenter. Love to know the hopping regimen for some people that complain about LA3 over attenuating. When I used that yeast I always had the opposite issue.

Also recently heard Vinnie say they have stopped whirlpooling at Russian River and moved to just hopback additions after the boil. Said he had to add more hops to the flavor additions when doing so. Personally I think large whirlpool additions are a waste of hops. Such a large percentage of the aroma and flavor active compounds either get blown off during fermentation or dragged down by yeast when it floccs. You’d be better off moving a large percentage of those hops into the dry ho to get more bang for your buck.

 

[beervoid]

So do you have your own data points where you've done a beer with just a big dryhop and had good results? One is enough for me to not try it and mess up a batch when I've had great results with whirlpool + dry hop barring evidence to the contrary.

I went lower and lower without noticing any difference. Whirlpooling with 2 to 3oz per 5 gallons now. Never done a 0 whirlpool one as I do believe it contributes. If there is any flavor difference in temps? I would argue its probably impossible to tell and if there is any noticable difference its only the bitterness.

 

[VirginiaHops1]

I went lower and lower without noticing any difference. Whirlpooling with 2 to 3oz per 5 gallons now. Never done a 0 whirlpool one as I do believe it contributes. If there is any flavor difference in temps? I would argue its probably impossible to tell and if there is any noticable difference its only the bitterness.

I've played around with temps but I'm not sure it makes much difference except for like you said, bitterness extraction. I'm still tinkering though. And I do think dry hops are more important to the NEIPA style even though whirlpooling adds something. I listened to a podcast from one of my favorite VA breweries awhile back who are crushing this style and you could tell they think the dry hop is the star of the show. He even said if he opened a bag of hops and didn't think it smelled fresh enough it was going in the whirlpool not the dry hop.

 

[beervoid]

Actually you want to get BELOW 80c relatively quickly to prevent the conversion of SMM into DMS if you haven’t boiled it all off, not keep it above. DMS won’t form below 80c.
You just need to keep it above 60c for sanitary concerns. I have slight issues with DMS as I boil at 201* and it takes twice as long to get rid of it at that temp. I will always cool whirlpool temps relatively quickly to 175. Probably not as critical for those of you around sea level.

Another interesting thing I’ve heard recently is for people that are doing the absurdly low whirlpool temps is you’re potentially not denaturing the enzymes in the hops that can break down dextrins and cause overattenuation. So essentially hop creep could even be happening before adding any hops to the fermenter. Love to know the hopping regimen for some people that complain about LA3 over attenuating. When I used that yeast I always had the opposite issue.

Also recently heard Vinnie say they have stopped whirlpooling at Russian River and moved to just hopback additions after the boil. Said he had to add more hops to the flavor additions when doing so. Personally I think large whirlpool additions are a waste of hops. Such a large percentage of the aroma and flavor active compounds either get blown off during fermentation or dragged down by yeast when it floccs. You’d be better off moving a large percentage of those hops into the dry ho to get more bang for your buck.

I think dms is formed till 140f/60c.
What I meant to say by whirlpooling at higher temps you can whirlpool shorter cause you get faster extraction and so less time/chance for smm to convert in dms.
Not that this of any concern as as far I know modern malts dont contain high amounts of smm anymore. Even pilsener.

 

[beervoid]

I've played around with temps but I'm not sure it makes much difference except for like you said, bitterness extraction. I'm still tinkering though. And I do think dry hops are more important to the NEIPA style even though whirlpooling adds something. I listened to a podcast from one of my favorite VA breweries awhile back who are crushing this style and you could tell they think the dry hop is the star of the show. He even said if he opened a bag of hops and didn't think it smelled fresh enough it was going in the whirlpool not the dry hop.

Also bigger systems can have up to 150% more bitterness extraction, if one would do huge whirlpool hop additions the beers would turn too bitter for the style.

 

[couchsending]

I think dms is formed till 140f/60c.
What I meant to say by whirlpooling at higher temps you can whirlpool shorter cause you get faster extraction and so less time/chance for smm to convert in dms.
Not that this of any concern as as far I know modern malts dont contain high amounts of smm anymore. Even pilsener.

Nope the conversion from SMM to DMS stops at 80C

It depends on the malt but I can attest to plenty of them containing decent amounts of SMM.

I seriously question the length and extraction times when it comes to whirlpool temps. Professional brewers whirlpool for extended times because they have to due to the volume of liquid and constraints of their system but as homebrewers do we have an advantage on that cooling instantly after adding hops would preserve more oils. Does extraction of the Aromatic and flavor compounds happen instantly above a certain temp anyways?

 

[beervoid]

Nope the conversion from SMM to DMS stops at 80C

It depends on the malt but I can attest to plenty of them containing decent amounts of SMM.

I seriously question the length and extraction times when it comes to whirlpool temps. Professional brewers whirlpool for extended times because they have to due to the volume of liquid and constraints of their system but as homebrewers do we have an advantage on that cooling instantly after adding hops would preserve more oils. Does extraction of the Aromatic and flavor compounds happen instantly above a certain temp anyways?

Homebrewers association states till 60c but their data might be outdated. Never had dms problems myself.

The science I read extraction was optimal at 185f and 30min after that the lower you go the longer you need to whirlpool.
John Kimmich said he would like to be able to cool faster.

 

[VirginiaHops1]

Also bigger systems can have up to 150% more bitterness extraction, if one would do huge whirlpool hop additions the beers would turn too bitter for the style.

Well that's one advantage homebrewers have. The big boys can't cool their wort very fast but we can.

 

[leesmith]

I’ve tried the low temp whirlpool, the long whirlpool, the 10 min whirlpool...the 180...the 170

Last few brews I’ve just thrown them in at flame out...gave them a minute to get comfortable...and then started cooling.

No one can tell the difference and it’s easier and less time and fussing.

I like some bitterness...so I don’t worry about that aspect. Frankly don’t prefer beers that have no bitterness. May as well carbonate some pineapple juice with some vodka in it.

Ingredients are an issue and I too have made decisions on when to use a hop in relation to quality.

 

[couchsending]

Homebrewers association states till 60c but their data might be outdated. Never had dms problems myself.

The science I read extraction was optimal at 185f and 30min after that the lower you go the longer you need to whirlpool.
John Kimmich said he would like to be able to cool faster.

Where did you read the 185 for 30 part? Just never seen or read that in my research.

 

[beervoid]

Where did you read the 185 for 30 part? Just never seen or read that in my research.

I will go through my notes see if I can find it.

 

[Cavpilot2000]

Looking for some hop recommendations on a "milkshake" style IPA. It will be a blood orange / grapefruit / lemon / lime citrus mess with vanilla and lactose.

Of the ones I've got in bulk that I think would be appropriate for this beer:

Amarillo
Laurel
Mosaic
Citra
Cascade
Simcoe

My initial thought was just 1:1 Cascade / Amarillo in the WP / DH but now I'm wondering if other combos might be better:

100% Cascade WP - Citra / Mosaic DH?
Cascade / Amarillo WP - Citra / Mosaic / Amarillo DH?

Basically looking for advice from anyone who has a lot of experience with a "citrusy" combination of the above.

Cheers!

Just curious as to why you would want to make a beer with virtually every citrus fruit flavor all mashed into one? Sounds like an unappealing mess.
Why not focus on one or two flavors that compliment one another?
I mean to each his own, and make what you want, but just because I like beef, pork, lamb, chicken, salmon and lobster doesn't mean I'm going to make a stew with all of them in it...

 

[breweer]

Latest rendition of this brew served at my rehearsal dinner and wedding! (Best version yet, keg kicked in 30 mins and 50 bottles instantly vanished at the reception)

 

[Dgallo]

Latest rendition of this brew served at my rehearsal dinner and wedding! (Best version yet, keg kicked in 30 mins and 50 bottles instantly vanished at the reception)

Congrats brother. Hope the wedding goes off without a hitch

 

[SRJHops]

Digging the conversation about WP vs DH, started by kevink's post. It's totally where my head is these days, as I try to perfect my NEIPA. Here is where I am currently:

I think we of course need both WP and dry hopping, and both add flavor. But what are the correct ratios? 50-50 WP and DH hops?

I currently believe that dry hopping much above 1 ounce per gallon can cause too much astringency and/or a NEIPA that can take several weeks to be drinkable. So, I would be interested in hearing from anyone who is using much more than that for a 5-gallon batch and getting good results.

If we use 5-6 ounces for dry hopping, then we are left with the WP amounts. 6 ounces? That would bring us to 12 ounces total, which seems to be in line with that a lot of folks here recommend. I am currently at 14 ounces total, favoring the WP, but with each batch I lower the total by an ounce... I worry that I am giving up flavor, but I also wonder if I could get more by a different WP process:

Janish says 203 and 185 for the WPs -- and pretty short stands (I think 10 minutes). Both seem high and short to me, but it's hard to argue with the research. But I still feel like a stand at 175 makes sense. But then we get the Julius clone (in the latest Zymurgy) with the 60-minute stand at 108, which I really don't know what to do with...

 

[flintoid]

edited: *not relevant

 

[Dgallo]

edited: *not relevant

True but hop astringency is caused primarily by polyphenols. So by elevated your dryhop amount you are increasing polyphenol extraction

 

[kevink]

I currently believe that dry hopping much above 1 ounce per gallon can cause too much astringency and/or a NEIPA that can take several weeks to be drinkable. So, I would be interested in hearing from anyone who is using much more than that for a 5-gallon batch and getting good results.

I have gone as high as 3.17 oz per gallon (40 oz into ~12.6 gallons) without issue. There are probably too many variables to make any sort of rule.

 

[couchsending]

I don’t generally go above 2oz/gallon dry hop... you just need to know how to alter your process to accommodate for the higher dry hopping loads.

 

[SRJHops]

I don’t generally go above 2oz/gallon dry hop... you just need to know how to alter your process to accommodate for the higher dry hopping loads.

Thanks. For process, at higher loads, I could dial down amounts as I get closer to kegging/bottling and also cold crash. What else could I do? Love to have more dry hops, but don't want the astringency...

 

[SRJHops]

I have gone as high as 3.17 oz per gallon (40 oz into ~12.6 gallons) without issue. There are probably too many variables to make any sort of rule.

Wow! So that would be 15 ounces of dry hops in a 5 gallon batch! If I did that my beer would be undrinkable. Or are you saying that is total for all hops, both hot and cold?

 

[kevink]

Dry hop only. That is not 12.6 gallons of finished beer. That is 12.6 gallons in the fermenter at dry hop time. It would be a little less than 15 ounces per 5 gallons because you would need more wort to get 5 gallons of finished beer due to the loss. Anyway, I don't think all hops provide the same level of astringency. At least in my experience they don't.

 

[TBryerton]

I don’t generally go above 2oz/gallon dry hop... you just need to know how to alter your process to accommodate for the higher dry hopping loads.

TreeHouse talks about this quite a bit. I would love to get your take on how to alter your process for higher rates. I’ve never gone that high - frightens me a little

 

[Loud Brewing]

I have also been experimenting with total hop loads and wp/dh ratios at home. I have several friends who own and operate professional breweries in SoCal (wicks, route 30, euryale) and I have been given the same answer in regards to their hop quantities in neipa offerings. They all claim to use 4-5 lbs total per barrel and always slightly higher dosing ratio in the dh.

So I attempted to follow these guidelines with my recent 10 gal batch and felt that the final product was slightly muted on both flavor and aroma. I am only assuming, but I think this might be the result of their better quality contract hops, and/or the ability of these breweries to force more out of the hops using different methods in the fermenter similar to what is outlined in the janish book.

My next batch will be back up to my previous 6lbs total per barrel, 60/40 dh to wp ratio and see if I can get that loud hop flavor and aroma back again.

 

[SRJHops]

Dry hop only. That is not 12.6 gallons of finished beer. That is 12.6 gallons in the fermenter at dry hop time. It would be a little less than 15 ounces per 5 gallons because you would need more wort to get 5 gallons of finished beer due to the loss. Anyway, I don't think all hops provide the same level of astringency. At least in my experience they don't.

That is most certainly true, but my assumption on this forum is that we are talking NEIPA hops, like Citra, Mosaic, Idaho 7, Galaxy...

 

[leesmith]

Is that an IPA?

 

[Dgallo]

View attachment 633608

Is that an IPA?

Are you saying it’s not good?

 

[leesmith]

Yes

 

[Dgallo]

Yes

I didn’t have that one but I’m a huge fan of sloop. I do however think they’re trying to do to much with their new brewing capacity by putting out a brand new ipa beer every week.

Is that the only sloop beer you’ve had?

 

[leesmith]

I’ve had maybe between 20-30 examples over the last few years.

 

[TBryerton]

I’ve had maybe between 20-30 examples over the last few years.

A few of their beers have been really good. Most of their beers are decent but I usually find them a little basic. A couple have been awful. Green Islands was the worst.