No starter with dry?

[Jubilee]

Is this because the dry packets contain that much more yeast relative to a vial or smack pack?

Does anyone hydrate their dry packets then create a liquid starter?

Just curious, as I ordered a stir starter this morning...

 

[Bsquared]

It is common practice to sprinkle the yeast on top of your wort, many people do this, but it results in the loss of about half the yeast.

Re-hydration per the manufacturers instructions is the best way to go. These yeast will be ready to go right after re-hydration so no starter is necessary, the yeast are at de-hydrated at the manufacturer when they are very healthy and viable. If you need more yest than is is in one package the best thing to do is buy a second package.

 

[unionrdr]

I've been using the 7g cooper's ale yeast sachets that come with their cans I use as a base. Didn't work well for me dry,so I've tried small starters,& re-hydrating. Re-hydrated this last one in 1.5C of luke warm water,with 2tsp dextrose on my EB. Boy,does that work well. Perfect fermentation rate,quick -n-steady. No need for blow off rig,as with my small starters using 1.5C hot water & DME.
But the bigger yeast packets,like 11.5g don't really need any help. But you can re-hydrate them as well to decrease lag time. Either method is fine with dry yeast,it won't hurt them,ime. I also found that Midwest carries the 15g cooper's ale yeast packet as well. I may give that one a shot.

 

[g-star]

Is this because the dry packets contain that much more yeast relative to a vial or smack pack?

Yes. The tubes/smack packs only contain enough cells for a low gravity wort, say up to 1.040. An 11.5g packet of dry yeast contains a substantially higher cell count, which is good up to about a 1.065 wort.

 

[scottland]

A liquid vial contains roughly 100 billion cells. One packet of 11.5gram dry yeast contains roughly 230 billion cells.

Just re-hydrate your yeast per the manufacturer's instructions, and there's never a need to make a starter. Need a bigger pitch, use another packet.

 

[Homercidal]

I started to rehydrate, but not make starters. There is SOO much more yeast in a dry packet than in a liquid yeast pack that it's cheaper and easier to just pitch it. They are also pretty cheap, so I use 1 packet for up to like 1.060 wort, and 2 for anything over that.

To rehydrate, I sanitize a small glass, or a very small mason jar by spritzing with starsan. And spritz the yeast packs, and piece of aluminum foil big enough to cover the glass, a fork, and some scissors. Grab a room temperature bottle of spring water and after the 30 seconds is up, pour some water into the small glass. Then cut packet and sprinkle the yeast on top of the water and cover with the foil.

Let it sit for 15 minutes, gently shaking to distribute the yeast a little bit. After the 15 minutes, stir the yeast into the water with the fork, and pitch it.

Rehydrating will fill the yeast cells with the liquid they need to get started, without introducing components into the cells that can hurt them.

You can also pitch right on top of the wort and it will be ok, but according to the yeast makers' instructions, rehydrating is the better option.

 

[Jubilee]

Very nice, thanks for the info.

I was reading the Maltose Falcons website; they have a nice writeup on yeast. According to the author, "...with a single Wyeast packet you are underpitching by a factor of at least 35 for ales and almost 100-fold for lagers."

http://www.maltosefalcons.com/tech/yeast-propagation-and-maintenance-principles-and-practices

So this helped me to understand why making a starter for liquid yeast is important...

 

[osagedr]

Always a good idea to use the yeast pitching rate calculator at www.mrmalty.com

 

[Germelli1]

It is common practice to sprinkle the yeast on top of your wort, many people do this, but it results in the loss of about half the yeast.

Why is that? I am not trying to be argumentative, I have just always been curious about this! I have just always wondered how rehydrating in a cup vs rehydrating in wort is any different. It seems it shouldn't matter how the yeast get rehydrated.

 

[pnj]

Some yeast says to not rehydrate it. I don't rehydrate either way, I just throw it in my wort and get on with my day.

I have made starters with dry yeast though. I only had one packet of a lager yeast and needed more. The store didn't have any more packets so I made a half gallon starter with the one packet I had.

 

[Bsquared]

Its because the yeasts cell walls are vary porous in their de-hydrated state and when you add them directly to the wort that is full of dissolved sugars they cant regulate the amount of sugar that they absorb. They basically equilibrate to the SG of the wort you pitched it into. This limits the the amount of water the cell can absorb, and slows the rate at witch the cell re-hydrates and becomes non-permeable. The result is that the cell will leak out essential cellular components like, proteins(enzymes), amino acids, nucleic acids, and cofactors. This can be a toxic event, and from what I have read can result in the death of half the pitch.

 

[Germelli1]

Its because the yeasts cell walls are vary porous in their de-hydrated state and when you add them directly to the wort that is full of dissolved sugars they cant regulate the amount of sugar that they absorb. They basically equilibrate to the SG of the wort you pitched it into. This limits the the amount of water the cell can absorb, and slows the rate at witch the cell re-hydrates and becomes non-permeable. The result is that the cell will leak out essential cellular components like, proteins(enzymes), amino acids, nucleic acids, and cofactors. This can be a toxic event, and from what I have read can result in the death of half the pitch.

Thanks a ton! I love learning new things and have been wondering about this one for a while!

FWIW I usually only pitch fresh (read: unwashed) dry yeast strains on low-gravity session beers so I was never worried about losing cells to lower my pitching rate. If I ever need to pitch on a regular gravity beer I will rehydrate thanks to the new-to-me information!

 

[scottland]

I was reading the Maltose Falcons website; they have a nice writeup on yeast. According to the author, "...with a single Wyeast packet you are underpitching by a factor of at least 35 for ales and almost 100-fold for lagers."

That information is FAR from accurate.

A 5 gallon batch of 1.050 beer needs around 200-250 billion healthy yeast cells. A fresh Wyeast or White Labs liquid yeast contains ~100 billion cells. That's under pitching by 2-2.5 fold. If you use a Propagator, that has ~25 billion cells. You under pitch by 8 to 10 fold. Double the pitch counts for lagers. Under pitching by 4-5 fold, and 16-20 fold respectively. That's definitely not 100 times less yeast than you need.

But yes, always make a starter with liquid yeast unless it's a beer under 1.040.

 

[Jubilee]

That information is FAR from accurate.

A 5 gallon batch of 1.050 beer needs around 200-250 billion healthy yeast cells. A fresh Wyeast or White Labs liquid yeast contains ~100 billion cells. That's under pitching by 2-2.5 fold. If you use a Propagator, that has ~25 billion cells. You under pitch by 8 to 10 fold. Double the pitch counts for lagers. Under pitching by 4-5 fold, and 16-20 fold respectively. That's definitely not 100 times less yeast than you need.

But yes, always make a starter with liquid yeast unless it's a beer under 1.040.

I should have posted the entire paragraph...it is the author's belief that only approx 25% of a given packet is viable yeast.

Most homebrewers start out pitching a Wyeast packet. How much are you actually underpitching with one of these 50 ml pouches? Assuming all the yeast in a Wyeast packet are viable (only about 25% truly are!), we are adding only 50 ml of about 60 million/cells per ml. This translates into a pitching rate of 150,000 cells per ml (Table 4). Thus with a single Wyeast packet you are underpitching by a factor of at least 35 for ales and almost 100-fold for lagers. What is the big deal about underpitching. Well remember that very little yeast growth should go on in the fermenter. There should be no more than 3 or 4 cell division which should take place during the first few hours of fermentation. If underpitched the yeast will spend much more time trying to grow to adequate quantities. During this extended growth period the yeast tend to secrete more esters and fusel alcohols. Moreover they may not have a sufficient number to adequately metabolize (digest) all of the fermentable sugars. So what you end up with is a beer with off-flavors (such as esters, fusel alcohols, diacetyl, acetaldehyde) and a high finishing gravity. Thus it is important to always make a starter and make it a relatively big one. Remember that you want the yeast to spend most of their energy making alcohol not babies in a fermenter!!

 

[Homercidal]

Some yeast says to not rehydrate it. I don't rehydrate either way, I just throw it in my wort and get on with my day.

I have made starters with dry yeast though. I only had one packet of a lager yeast and needed more. The store didn't have any more packets so I made a half gallon starter with the one packet I had.

Here is what Fermentis writes on their website ON THE CRAFT BREWER LINK:

All Fermentis dry yeast offer long shelf life giving advantages in both distribution and storage. Rehydration is a simple procedure and correct yeast counts are achieved by pitching a known weight of yeast to the wort.

and what they have on the site FOR THE HOMEBREWER LINK:


The dry yeast is easy to rehydrate as the wort is being prepared by the brewer. High yeast activity and correct yeast pitching levels will ensure that the fermentation starts rapidly and goes to completion in the desired time thereby reducing the risk of bacterial or wild yeast infection damaging the flavour or appearance of the beer.

This is what Danstar says:

Why is rehydrating the dry yeast before pitching important?

Dry beer yeast needs to be reconstituted in a gentle way. During rehydration the cell membrane undergoes changes which can be lethal to yeast. In order to reconstitute the yeast as gently as possible (and minimize/avoid any damage) yeast producers developed specific rehydration procedures. Although most dry beer yeast will work if pitched directly into wort, it is recommended to follow the rehydration instructions to insure the optimum performance of the yeast.


I know that both have stated that you can pitch right on top of the wort previously, but I think they have started to understand that there are a lot of knowledgeable homebrewers out there now, and have since changed their instructions to give them better information, rather than just trying to make it easy for them.

 

[unionrdr]

I finally tried adding 2tsp of dextrose to the 1.5C of warm water I re-hydrate in. Seems to work way better than just water. 2hours & 15 minutes gave me thick krausen almost touching the plastic wrap covering the 2C Pyrex measuring cup I use.

 

[ThreeDogsNE]

I just pitched a packet of S-04 into a 1.053 OG ESB on Monday 8/1. I just sprinkled it in, as the packet said. Immediately thereafter I pitched a Wyeast 1028 London Ale into the other half of the batch, same OG, both carboys holding about 6 gallons. The first carboy, with S-04, is now at 1.024. The second carboy, with the 1028, has gone to 1.050 over the same 2 days. I did not make a starter for either carboy.

I just threw in the towel, and pitched S-04 into the second carboy. I think that was probably the last time I will pitch liquid yeast without a starter.

By the way, the 1028 was fresh from my LHBS on Saturday, handled gently, and was dated as mfg on 02 May 11. The S-04 packets had expiration dates of 03/2011!

 

[Homercidal]

I finally tried adding 2tsp of dextrose to the 1.5C of warm water I re-hydrate in. Seems to work way better than just water. 2hours & 15 minutes gave me thick krausen almost touching the plastic wrap covering the 2C Pyrex measuring cup I use.

Well, it's going to SEEM like it's working better if you add sugar and the yeast actually start eating it... You are actually making a kind of a starter.

 

[unionrdr]

Yeah,sorta. But it's mostly water rather than malt,I figured it'd be better for the yeast's cell walls. It did give a quick but steady ferment,like a US-05 or something.

 

[Yooper]

Yeah,sorta. But it's mostly water rather than malt,I figured it'd be better for the yeast's cell walls. It did give a quick but steady ferment,like a US-05 or something.

It's still stressful, as they should be rehydrated with plain water first. Then if you're going to make a starter, the rehydrated yeast can be added to it.

There is no reason to "proof" dry yeast, and it can actually cause more stress if not simply rehydrated first.

 

[jonmohno]

+1 agreed. That method is for baking bread.2tps. is still a starter or proofer.Alot of sugar for a small amout of water.The health and viability is within just hydration, then easing it into the temp of the wort. I dont even use that much sugar for bread yeast proofing.
Its really easy to hydrate, just boil some water cool it in a small ice bath pitch at correct temps cover and sit while the wort cools and gets aerated for about a half hour.

 

[gjsumm]

So why use liquid yeast? Is there any off flavors with dry over liquid yeast is there just different strains? Can you save the yeast of a dry yeast? Just some questions?

 

[mr_bell]

Why is that? I am not trying to be argumentative, I have just always been curious about this! I have just always wondered how rehydrating in a cup vs rehydrating in wort is any different. It seems it shouldn't matter how the yeast get rehydrated.

I hope someone didn't address this already, I didn't read through this rest of the post, very tired and about to go to bed. It has to do something with the fact that when the yeast are dry and sprinkled into wort they are not selective about what they take up into the cell. They will take in things that are toxic. Once re-hydrated (in water), they are selective about what crosses the cell membrane. I wish I were speaking my extensive experience in mircocellular biology, but from my answer you can probably tell that I am not. This was all discussed on a recent Basic Brewing Radio podcast, which also included a BBR/BYO collaborative experiment on the effects of re-hydrating versus not re-hydrating yeast. It was the July 28th episode. Here's the long link:

http://hw.libsyn.com/p/f/f/c/ffcdd9...cec2c1c3cf3d&l_sid=18257&l_eid=&l_mid=2665865

 

[Yooper]

So why use liquid yeast? Is there any off flavors with dry over liquid yeast is there just different strains? Can you save the yeast of a dry yeast? Just some questions?

Liquid yeast come in far more varieties, and for a Belgian or other beers that derive a certain flavor profile from the yeast, there is no dry yeast strain available.

You certainly can wash and save dry yeast strains. Then, of course, they are liquid yeast.

 

[unionrdr]

I think that stressing the yeast is a bit overplayed. It doesn't seem to stress them much at all. Measurable under a microscope maybe. But,in practice,they def went to work a bit more vigorously then a plain water re-hydration. This is from my own observations. I don't care what "they" say,it worked quite well in the English bitter I'm fermenting now. initial fermentation was about 2.5 days. The krausen in the measuring cup of re-hydrating yeast was thick & creamy,like a fine head on a glass of beer.
And it's not as stressful as a starter of malt,from what is said. I remember using sugar in a bread yeast starter. That just tells me they don't need much to get going more vigorously than plain water. I think it's time to re-think yeast stress.
I took quite the verbal beating for my statements against secondaries from my start here. So this is just an extension of that same sort of argument. I could likely cut the dextrose to 1tsp,& do just fine. I sought only to test a theory that was put forth some time ago. It works on the average gravity ale,so that's all that matters,in my estimation.