No Secondary please

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muse435

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I have read that a lot of people have stopped using secondaries on simpler beers (no fruit, dry hoping, and so on). Does this effect the amount of time that it takes to ferment? I assume it would not and I'm going to rely on gravity readings, but was just curious.
 
Fermentation takes the same amount of time. When we're talking about "no secondary", we're just talking about leaving the beer in the same fermenter, and not moving it to a new vessel. It still needs time to condition and clarify, so it still is about the same amount of time in the fermenter. It's just moving the beer to a new vessel that is eliminated.
 
Fermentation takes the same amount of time. When we're talking about "no secondary", we're just talking about leaving the beer in the same fermenter, and not moving it to a new vessel. It still needs time to condition and clarify, so it still is about the same amount of time in the fermenter. It's just moving the beer to a new vessel that is eliminated.

I completely understand that, I was really wondering if leaving it on the yeast cake had any effect w/ regards to time.
 
The amount of time that it takes for initial fermentation to occur in a simple beer recipes is only a few days. The time that you leave the beer in the primary after fermentation has mostly finished is to let the yeast clean up their products of fermentation. The products will sometimes produce off flavors which is why it is recommend to leave the beer in the primary for a few weeks. Another reason to leave the beer in the primary for a while is to help the yeast cake get nice and solid so you transfer less sediment out of the beer when you rack or bottle.
 
it's best to leave it on the cake so the yeast can clear up anything it hasn't. I always leave it in the primary for a month without any secondary and find I've been making better tasting beer. Doing a secondary just helps with clearing the beer. If you rack your beer to secondary too early, you risk interrupting and maybe even stopping the natural fermentation cycle of the yeast.
 
I completely understand that, I was really wondering if leaving it on the yeast cake had any effect w/ regards to time.

I think I understand your line of thought. The more time on a large amount of yeast would seem to mean a shorter period of time to reach the desired result. Since more yeast, in theory, should get a through a constant amount of fermentables/by products/flavors in a wort, FASTER than a smaller amount of yeast.
 
Transferring to secondary will help produce clearer beer though, yes?

Well, not really.

The key to clarify isn't necessarily the actual movement of the beer. There's nothing magical about moving the beer that causes it to clear. What causes it to clear is time and temperature, as well as the recipe (wheat doesn't clear as readily, and some yeast strains don't clear well).

If you leave the beer sit alone for three weeks, it will be just as clear as if you let it sit for a week and then racked it to a clearing vessel. Moving it doesn't cause clarity.

Temperature makes a difference, too. If you want a clearer beer, stick the fermenter in a cold place (like a fridge) for three days. Suspended particles like yeast and protein will drop out and fall to the bottom, leaving a clearer beer.
 
Transferring to secondary will help produce clearer beer though, yes?

Not to those of us who long primary, we think it lends a clearer, and cleaner tasting beer, that's why we choose to do it, not because we're lazy. We think it's better than secondarying, because the contact with the yeast cleans up the byproducts of fermentation, and then flocculates more fully and the yeastcake compresses, leaving less yeast actually in the beer.

This is my yeastcake for my Sri Lankin Stout that sat in primary for 5 weeks. Notice how tight the yeast cake is? None of that got racked over to my bottling bucket. And the beer is extremely clear.

150874_473504884066_620469066_5740814_2866677_n.jpg


That little bit of beer to the right is all of the 5 gallons that DIDN'T get vaccumed off the surface of the tight trub. When I put 5 gallons in my fermenter, I tend to get 5 gallons into bottles. The cake itself is like cement, it's about an inch thick and very, very dense, you can't just tilt your bucket and have it fall out. I had to use water pressure to get it to come out.

156676_473504924066_620469066_5740815_1970477_n.jpg


Ths is the last little bit of the same beer in the bottling bucket, this is the only sediment that made it though and that was done on purpose, when I rack I always make sure to rub the autosiphon across the bottom of the primary to make sure there's plenty of yeast in suspension to carb the beer, but my bottles are all crystal clear and have little sediment in them.

Half the time I forget to use moss, and you can't tell the difference in clarity.

Another thing is to leave your beer in the fridge for at least a week. The longer you chill the beer in the fridge, the tighter the yeast cake. I had a beer in the back of my fridge for 3 months, that I could completely upend and no yeast came out. Longer in the cold the tighter the yeast cake becomes. Even just chilling for a week (besides getting rid of chill haze) will go to great lengths to allow you to leave the yeast behind, but with only a minimum amount of beer.

The only filtering I've ever done has been through my kidneys.

I get the barest hint of sediment in my bottles....just enough for the yeast to have done the job of carbonating the beer.

THIS is where the latest discussion and all your questions answered.
We have multiple threads about this all over the place, like this one,so we really don't need to go over it again, all the info you need is here;

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f163/secondary-not-john-palmer-jamil-zainasheff-weigh-176837/


You'll find that more and more recipes these days do not advocate moving to a secondary at all, but mention primary for a month, which is starting to reflect the shift in brewing culture that has occurred in the last 4 years, MOSTLY because of many of us on here, skipping secondary, opting for longer primaries, and writing about it. Recipes in BYO have begun stating that in their magazine. I remember the "scandal" it caused i the letters to the editor's section a month later, it was just like how it was here when we began discussing it, except a lot more civil than it was here. But after the Byo/Basic brewing experiment, they started reflecting it in their recipes.

:mug:
 
There's not a single thread about secondaries that you haven't chimed in on Revvy. Always with a unique answer too, I love it.
 
There's not a single thread about secondaries that you haven't chimed in on Revvy. Always with a unique answer too, I love it.

Because I was pretty much one of the first ones on here to begin doing it and to advocate doing it, and to take a lot of flack for it. So I probably have more experience on here with long primaries than anyone else...

*shrug*
 
I can report that after stopping the practice of using a secondary, my beers are MORE clear and have a mature character to them right away.
Previously, some of my beers were rather green at bottling and required a month or so in the bottles to taste their best.

I assume that when I did use a secondary, I was transferring the beer from primary way, way, way too soon.

Also, ommiting the secondary reduces the chance of infection and oxidation that could occur during the transfer. Less work too.

I am completely sold on the primary only technique.
Pez.
 
I'm an all grain brewer, but I'm going to try a solo primary on my next beer. Should I be concerned about yeast-bite? I've heard that beers that sit on the initial yeast cake too long can have really off flavors?
 
All those questions have been asked an answered in that Jamil thread I posted. There's really nothing you can ask where the answer is NOT already on here (probably by me at least 50 times)......You can look the answers up for yourself. Like I said we don't need to re-invent the wheel EVERYTIME a thread like this gets started. This conversation has been going on for several years...so there is little new that can be covered.

I know it sounds like a blowoff, but it;s not, there's a lot of great, in depth info in there. So rather than just give some quick or half assed answer, the really good stuff has already been said in depth.
 
I have a question.

I've skipped secondary a couple times. However, it results in a bunch of yeast at the bottom of my keg. That's fine if the keg stays in one spot, but I like to bring him to parties or gatherings, and in the process he usually gets shaken up a bit. Then a bit of the yeast gets thrown back into suspension, with a noticeable effect on taste.

The last three batches I've brewed, I've done secondary simply to reduce the amount of yeast going into my keg. While secondary isn't going to get your beer to clear any faster, it does reduce the total volume of yeast that is in your keg. I still see a little at the bottom, but nothing like when I skip secondary.

However, I have never cold-crashed in primary. If I did, would it cut down on the amount of yeast that gets siphoned when I rack to my keg?
 
I have a question.

I've skipped secondary a couple times. However, it results in a bunch of yeast at the bottom of my keg. That's fine if the keg stays in one spot, but I like to bring him to parties or gatherings, and in the process he usually gets shaken up a bit. Then a bit of the yeast gets thrown back into suspension, with a noticeable effect on taste.

The last three batches I've brewed, I've done secondary simply to reduce the amount of yeast going into my keg. While secondary isn't going to get your beer to clear any faster, it does reduce the total volume of yeast that is in your keg. I still see a little at the bottom, but nothing like when I skip secondary.

However, I have never cold-crashed in primary. If I did, would it cut down on the amount of yeast that gets siphoned when I rack to my keg?

Have you considered filtering?
 
I'm an all grain brewer, but I'm going to try a solo primary on my next beer. Should I be concerned about yeast-bite? I've heard that beers that sit on the initial yeast cake too long can have really off flavors?

No, if you do a primary only you won't get off flavors. Of course, don't let it sit at 80 degrees! Keep the primary at a reasonable ale temperature, preferable under 70 degrees, while the beer is in the fermenter.

can you wash the yeast after the yeast has been in contact with the high alcohol levels for a long period of time?

Yes, a month is really not "a long time" so yeast washing is absolutely fine.

Can I lager in the primary?

I would not. That's the one time I rack right after the diacetyl rest. Some do it- but I wouldn't say that is the best practice. Lagers are "clean" and without yeast character, so I'd still rack them before lagering.

I have a question.

I've skipped secondary a couple times. However, it results in a bunch of yeast at the bottom of my keg. That's fine if the keg stays in one spot, but I like to bring him to parties or gatherings, and in the process he usually gets shaken up a bit. Then a bit of the yeast gets thrown back into suspension, with a noticeable effect on taste.

The last three batches I've brewed, I've done secondary simply to reduce the amount of yeast going into my keg. While secondary isn't going to get your beer to clear any faster, it does reduce the total volume of yeast that is in your keg. I still see a little at the bottom, but nothing like when I skip secondary.

However, I have never cold-crashed in primary. If I did, would it cut down on the amount of yeast that gets siphoned when I rack to my keg?

Well, yes. Cold crashing will reduce the yeast still in suspension. However, so will a long primary. If you're racking before three-four weeks, that's why there is so much yeast. Like I said, there is nothing magical about moving the beer to make the yeast drop out faster. It'll drop out when it drops out, no matter what vessel it's in. Sometimes just leaving it in the primary for four weeks is the only thing that's needed, but cold crashing might help a non-flocculant yeast.

Also, some yeast strains compact tightly and form a very tight yeast cake when done, leaving a super clear beer. Nottingham and S04 are notable for that.

You can also "jump" to a new serving keg after the beer is clear- that's what I do. I have the beer carbed up and clear in the kegerator, and then make the "jump" to a new keg by pushing the beer out the "out" line into the "out" line of the new keg with 2 psi of co2. Then you have perfectly carbed completely sediment-free beer. If you want to do it, there are other thread on it. I don't want to steal this thread talking about it.
 
No, if you do a primary only you won't get off flavors. Of course, don't let it sit at 80 degrees! Keep the primary at a reasonable ale temperature, preferable under 70 degrees, while the beer is in the fermenter.



Yes, a month is really not "a long time" so yeast washing is absolutely fine.



I would not. That's the one time I rack right after the diacetyl rest. Some do it- but I wouldn't say that is the best practice. Lagers are "clean" and without yeast character, so I'd still rack them before lagering.



Well, yes. Cold crashing will reduce the yeast still in suspension. However, so will a long primary. If you're racking before three-four weeks, that's why there is so much yeast. Like I said, there is nothing magical about moving the beer to make the yeast drop out faster. It'll drop out when it drops out, no matter what vessel it's in. Sometimes just leaving it in the primary for four weeks is the only thing that's needed, but cold crashing might help a non-flocculant yeast.

Also, some yeast strains compact tightly and form a very tight yeast cake when done, leaving a super clear beer. Nottingham and S04 are notable for that.

You can also "jump" to a new serving keg after the beer is clear- that's what I do. I have the beer carbed up and clear in the kegerator, and then make the "jump" to a new keg by pushing the beer out the "out" line into the "out" line of the new keg with 2 psi of co2. Then you have perfectly carbed completely sediment-free beer. If you want to do it, there are other thread on it. I don't want to steal this thread talking about it.

Good info. I might have to try that soon. Or filtering, too.

Here's the thing--I always do 3-4 weeks primary, but I still get a bit of yeast in the keg regardless. I try hard not to when racking, but it seems like it's impossible not to snag a little bit when siphoning.

If I don't secondary, I end up with a big clump of yeast sitting at the bottom of my keg. When I secondary, the layer of the yeast on the bottom is so thin that it's easy not to suck any up at all.

Anyways, after a week of carbing the beer has been plenty cold for a week, and it all has settled out once more. But keg of no-secondary beer has a lot more yeast. Sure, it will compact over time, but I've found it's still not compact enough to kick up into my beer a bit if I move the keg more than a couple feet in my house after a week, if not more.

To me, it feels worth it to have a keg with no yeast in it at all, so that I can haul it around to my heart's content. I brought a nice beer over to a friends' and it had so much yeast you could see it on the sides of the glass after you finished one off. It definitely did not taste as good as it should have, and I like to leave a good impression on people. Some people think homebrewing is either 1) eccentric and weird 2) a cheap way to make hooch or 3) unsafe or gross to drink. You can instantly shatter their perceptions by serving them a good beer, but trying to explain exactly what I said in this post would confuse/bore people and make them think you're a big nerd, and also an excuse-making lame-o.
 

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