No oxygen dry hopping

[Vale71]

I don’t understand these elaborate dry hopping devices when you have a unitank. Bung at the very tail end of fermentation to at least create some head pressure, connect Co2 and pump into headspace while opening the top port and quickly dump you hops in. Purge headspace a few times.

You listen to so many professional brewers of great hoppy beers and almost all have gone back to this method. The old traditional way of pumping Co2 in through say the CIP arm and dumping in through the top port.

Try doing that with a tank full of carbonated beer...

 

[Vale71]

I think you need to read Wolfgang Kunze.

Believe me, I've read a lot more than just that. And in the original version too. We don't need no stinking translation...

 

[couchsending]

Try doing that with a tank full of carbonated beer...

Plenty of breweries do it. Witnessed it more than a few times. You do it right you don’t get a gyser.

 

[Vale71]

Or this:

I'm so happy my SSB tank has a 3" port...

 

[Vale71]

Plenty of breweries do it. Witnessed it more than a few times. You do it right you don’t get a gyser.

That might be, but if you think you're not getting any oxygen in you're just fooling yourself.

 

[couchsending]

That might be, but if you think you're not getting any oxygen in you're just fooling yourself.

The most shelf stable hoppy beers I’ve drank that have also won Alpha King, GABF, WBC for IIPA and IPA are all made this way. That alone is plenty of indication to me that the minuscule amount of oxygen ingress at that level is not doing any harm to the hop quality of the beer.

 

[Schlenkerla]

Believe me, I've read a lot more than just that. And in the original version too. We don't need no stinking translation...

He speaks volumes about controlling oxygen egress. It goes back years. I would not suggest HSA or LOB/LODO is bunk based on what he has published. That said, I prefer when people actually cite, "Measured", DO values with the process to correlate the impact.

 

[Schlenkerla]

The most shelf stable hoppy beers I’ve drank that have also won Alpha King, GABF, WBC for IIPA and IPA are all made this way. That alone is plenty of indication to me that the minuscule amount of oxygen ingress at that level is not doing any harm to the hop quality of the beer.

I think hop preservation is only part of it (on the cold side) To me it's more of the hot side and malt flavors. That alone recognizing malt flavor/hop balance can change ones opinion. You need to recognize the malt difference first.

Make a beer you always make non LODO then try it LODO and then observe change. My first beer with LODO using Noble German hops and pale malt made it clearly evident. Smelled the hops right after the pour. Then tasted the fresh roasted malt. It's kin to fresh roasted coffee vs plain coffee made from a old open can of coffee.

 

[mongoose33]

I'm so happy my SSB tank has a 3" port...

I tried to get spike to add a 2" port on my lid, but they said the engineers indicated it would compromise the integrity of the lid. So mine's a workaround given the limits of the lid.

 

[kevink]

I don’t understand these elaborate dry hopping devices when you have a unitank. Bung at the very tail end of fermentation to at least create some head pressure, connect Co2 and pump into headspace while opening the top port and quickly dump you hops in. Purge headspace a few times.

You listen to so many professional brewers of great hoppy beers and almost all have gone back to this method. The old traditional way of pumping Co2 in through say the CIP arm and dumping in through the top port.

I used to do it like that (create positive pressure in headspace while adding dry hops), but I always felt it can be done better. You will see more homebrewers using dry hop chambers like the ones in this thread as time goes on. I remember about four years ago, basically nobody here was dry hopping the way you just described (creating positive pressure while dumping hops), and now everyone is doing it. The next thing will be dry hop chambers and more careful dry hopping techniques to limit O2 ingress.

I don't really care what commercial breweries are doing and don't blindly think that they are doing things in the best way possible. The best part about homebrewing, in my opinion, is tweaking the process to make better beer than commercial breweries.

 

[CodeSection]

I tried to get spike to add a 2" port on my lid, but they said the engineers indicated it would compromise the integrity of the lid. So mine's a workaround given the limits of the lid.

Interesting..... I was under the impression the lid with the 1.5” and 4” TC port were added and manufactured in China before delivery to Spike. Could it be that they do not have the tools or mold or whatever is required to install anything in the lid? With the lid’s shape and thickness I would think that would require a different process. Perhaps there is a cost factor to change things or to add this to their current process.

Were they more specific as to what they meant how it would affect the integrity of the lid? At least one competitor has multiple TC ports on their lid. So, it is possible.

 

[couchsending]

I don't really care what commercial breweries are doing and don't blindly think that they are doing things in the best way possible. The best part about homebrewing, in my opinion, is tweaking the process to make better beer than commercial breweries.

Really? The guys that brew the same beer over and over and over. The ones that have trained QA/QC panels, fully staffed Labs with the most high tech equipment available, degrees in brewing science, ppb DO meters, etc. etc. etc. You don’t care what they do?

Plenty of people have been pumping Co2 into headspace while adding dry hops for a long long time. Those people would be professionals.

Do I care what my local middle of the road brewery does for their process? No probably not. But the really successful ones that make world class beer over and over and over again, I’d rather listen to them than anyone else.

You want better aroma/flavor from your dry hops get as much yeast out of the beer as possible before adding your hops.

 

[couchsending]

I tried to get spike to add a 2" port on my lid, but they said the engineers indicated it would compromise the integrity of the lid. So mine's a workaround given the limits of the lid.

I asked the same thing and got the same answer.

 

[kevink]

Plenty of people have been pumping Co2 into headspace while adding dry hops for a long long time. Those people would be professionals.

I said that people here (as in on this forum) weren't doing it 4 years ago.

You want better aroma/flavor from your dry hops get as much yeast out of the beer as possible before adding your hops.

I have started doing that, actually. I'm only two batches in, so I need more time to form an opinion about it. This was one of the bigger reasons for creating a dry hop chamber, though. Since the yeast is crashed out, there's no chance that it will take care of the O2 that inevitably gets dragged in by the hops.

 

[couchsending]

I said that people here (as in on this forum) weren't doing it 4 years ago.



I have started doing that, actually. I'm only two batches in, so I need more time to form an opinion about it. This was one of the bigger reasons for creating a dry hop chamber, though. Since the yeast is crashed out, there's no chance that it will take care of the O2 that inevitably gets dragged in by the hops.

There’s still plenty of yeast in suspension, a ton actually.

 

[kevink]

There’s still plenty of yeast in suspension, a ton actually.

Could be, but whether it's enough to take care of the O2 is anyone's guess. And what happens before the yeast take care of the O2? It does not happen immediately, so the O2 just hangs around in the beer, oxidizing it, before the yeast can get to it all.

 

[Vale71]

Okay, so couchsending thinks that dry-hop chambers are a waste of time and has nothing else to add to the thread. Duly noted. Moving on...

BTW a lot of commercial operations (small and large alike) do things the easy way because of cost reasons and manage to sell their beer anyway. Jolly for them but personally I couldn't care less.

 

[couchsending]

Could be, but whether it's enough to take care of the O2 is anyone's guess. And what happens before the yeast take care of the O2? It does not happen immediately, so the O2 just hangs around in the beer, oxidizing it, before the yeast can get to it all.

So are you grinding up all your pellets? What about all the O2 entrapped in the pellets? Oh no what’s that doing to your beer?

 

[Vale71]

Interesting..... I was under the impression the lid with the 1.5” and 4” TC port were added and manufactured in China before delivery to Spike. Could it be that they do not have the tools or mold or whatever is required to install anything in the lid?

They clearly have the tools to drill extra ports in their kettles so that's not the issue. I think with a pressurised fermenter they might be a bit more worried about something coming off and taking out someone's eye (or worse) and the liability that would represent for them than they would be when drilling an extra port in a boil kettle.

 

[couchsending]

Okay, so couchsending thinks that dry-hop chambers are a waste of time and has nothing else to add to the thread. Duly noted. Moving on...

BTW a lot of commercial operations (small and large alike) do things the easy way because of cost reasons and manage to sell their beer anyway. Jolly for them but personally I couldn't care less.

BTW it’s rather obvious which ones those are of you spend enough time listening.

 

[Vale71]

So are you grinding up all your pellets? What about all the O2 entrapped in the pellets? Oh no what’s that doing to your beer?

Which O2 would that be? Pellets are extruded at very high pressure, so high that they even warm up significantly in the process and care must be taken so that they don't get too warm. One of the advantages of pelletized hops is exactly their lack of entrapped air which makes them very stable vis-a-vis storage. That is not even taking into the account the fact that they are usually shipped in vacuum bags (the keyword here being vacuum, as in lack of air) and we're also devising ways to purge our dry hop chambers with the pellets inside which means that it would be impossible for the pellets to retain air, if they had any, in the process.

 

[kevink]

So are you grinding up all your pellets? What about all the O2 entrapped in the pellets? Oh no what’s that doing to your beer?

It won't be doing anything to my beer, because I'll be pulling vacuum and pressurizing with CO2 repeatedly with the hops in the chamber. That's one of the main points of the chamber. Any O2 in the pellets will be long gone.

 

[mongoose33]

Interesting..... I was under the impression the lid with the 1.5” and 4” TC port were added and manufactured in China before delivery to Spike. Could it be that they do not have the tools or mold or whatever is required to install anything in the lid? With the lid’s shape and thickness I would think that would require a different process. Perhaps there is a cost factor to change things or to add this to their current process.

Were they more specific as to what they meant how it would affect the integrity of the lid? At least one competitor has multiple TC ports on their lid. So, it is possible.

Not specific. It was just basically a "no." Maybe it's that it wasn't installed at the factory and they didn't have the jigs to do it. Not sure. They can add additional ports to the kettles without any issue--I've had them add (weld) both 1/2" NPT ports as well as 1.5" TC ports to one of mine. But not the lid to the fermenter.

 

[CodeSection]

They clearly have the tools to drill extra ports in their kettles so that's not the issue. I think with a pressurised fermenter they might be a bit more worried about something coming off and taking out someone's eye (or worse) and the liability that would represent for them than they would be when drilling an extra port in a boil kettle.

Just because they may have tools and can cut a hole and perform a weld doesn't mean their processes are there. It is not an extra liability issue unless you are suggesting their quality control is questionable. They are responsible for any of their products they sell regardless if they do custom work on any of them.

This is a manufacturing issue. Spike does not offer any custom work on their conicals and for good reason, it is simply not cost effective. They would have to add yet another area, mold/jig and process for such a very, very low demand. They simply do not get many requests to justify it.

Not specific. It was just basically a "no." Maybe it's that it wasn't installed at the factory and they didn't have the jigs to do it. Not sure. They can add additional ports to the kettles without any issue--I've had them add (weld) both 1/2" NPT ports as well as 1.5" TC ports to one of mine. But not the lid to the fermenter.

I didn't think they provided you with specifics. When I spoke with a certain person, I was told it was a manufacturing issue. That is why I was surprised by your initial posting. It sounds like we received answers from different people.

Yep, they did custom work on my kettles as well.....

Perhaps within the next couple of years if there is sufficient demand to justify it, we will see the lid "re-engineered" with the option to have an additional 2" port that is added to the manufacturing process in China....

 

[kevink]

Since it's a pressure rated vessel, the shape and configuration of the lid is important. It could just be that they have not pressure tested the lid with that size ferrule on it.

 

[Vale71]

Since it's a pressure rated vessel, the shape and configuration of the lid is important. It could just be that they have not pressure tested the lid with that size ferrule on it.

I don't really think they have pressure tested the lid at all. That testing like the rest of manufacturing has been outsourced to China AFAIK from day one. Drill any extra holes and the tests that have been performed at the factory are worthless and need to be redone at significant cost, which will probably make any customer balk and run for the hills at the sight of the price quote.

 

[Vale71]

Just because they may have tools and can cut a hole and perform a weld doesn't mean their processes are there. It is not an extra liability issue unless you are suggesting their quality control is questionable. They are responsible for any of their products they sell regardless if they do custom work on any of them.

So you're saying that if they have outsourced the testing to the actual manufacturer (which will be covered in the contract extensively) if they don't perform the testing themselves anyway then they're screwed as they will have no recourse against the actual manufacturer in case of a failure? I really doubt that would be the case, unless after-market modifications have been done either by them or a third-party obviously.

 

[kevink]

I don't really think they have pressure tested the lid at all. That testing like the rest of manufacturing has been outsourced to China AFAIK from day one. Drill any extra holes and the tests that have been performed at the factory are worthless and need to be redone at significant cost, which will probably make any customer balk and run for the hills at the sight of the price quote.

Who did the testing is irrelevant. Once it's modified, it would have to be re-tested. We are on the same page.

 

[ajw85]

Hi

Here is how this works commercially and how it potentially translates into homebrewing.

1) Cut 2 holes in the top of your Fermenter and put some sort of air tight flanges / nipples / whatever. I would suggest a 2" and a 1/2" hole. You'll need a 1/2" ball valve for the 1/2" connection.

2) Have an external vessel, preferably plastic, and drill a 2" hole at the bottom with another air tight flange / nipple / whatever. You'll need a ball valve for this 2" connection. Drill another 1/4" hole on the bottom and a 1/4" hole in the lid on the top with air tight flanges / nipples / whatever. You'll need ball valves for these connections.

3) Connect a tee to the 2" connections and connect a 1/4" reducer to the tee. Connect CO2 to all 1/4" lines."

4) Put hops in the external container, open the CO2 from the bottom of the external container. Give it a sniff test and put the lid on when you smell CO2.

5) open the valve on the top of the vessel and open the valve on the CO2 connection to the tee. Open the 1/2" ball valve on the fermenter. Wait until you smell Co2 coming out of the 1/2" connection.

6) when you are ready, open the 2" ball valve and the hops will be 'educted' into your fermenter through the 2" hose.

7) turn off CO2 and close the 1/2" ball valve and close the 2" ball valve.

You have now dry hopped without adding O2 into your beer.

 

[CodeSection]

So you're saying that if they have outsourced the testing to the actual manufacturer (which will be covered in the contract extensively) if they don't perform the testing themselves anyway then they're screwed as they will have no recourse against the actual manufacturer in case of a failure? I really doubt that would be the case, unless after-market modifications have been done either by them or a third-party obviously.

@Vale71, are you ok? To be clear, I did not comment about anything regarding testing, you did. Please reread my post. I simply commented the reasons I was given from a very reliable source inside the company that it is a manufacturing issue, they are not set up for it and it is not cost effective.

I guess anyone could speculate and dream up so many reasons why they don't provide the custom work...at the end of the day it doesn't matter as Spike has already made their decision based upon what they told me. I believe the answer I was given.....

 

[kevink]

Hi

Here is how this works commercially and how it potentially translates into homebrewing.

1) Cut 2 holes in the top of your Fermenter and put some sort of air tight flanges / nipples / whatever. I would suggest a 2" and a 1/2" hole. You'll need a 1/2" ball valve for the 1/2" connection.

2) Have an external vessel, preferably plastic, and drill a 2" hole at the bottom with another air tight flange / nipple / whatever. You'll need a ball valve for this 2" connection. Drill another 1/4" hole on the bottom and a 1/4" hole in the lid on the top with air tight flanges / nipples / whatever. You'll need ball valves for these connections.

3) Connect a tee to the 2" connections and connect a 1/4" reducer to the tee. Connect CO2 to all 1/4" lines."

4) Put hops in the external container, open the CO2 from the bottom of the external container. Give it a sniff test and put the lid on when you smell CO2.

5) open the valve on the top of the vessel and open the valve on the CO2 connection to the tee. Open the 1/2" ball valve on the fermenter. Wait until you smell Co2 coming out of the 1/2" connection.

6) when you are ready, open the 2" ball valve and the hops will be 'educted' into your fermenter through the 2" hose.

7) turn off CO2 and close the 1/2" ball valve and close the 2" ball valve.

You have now dry hopped without adding O2 into your beer.

You're a little late to the party

 

[Schlenkerla]

@Vale71, are you ok? To be clear, I did not comment about anything regarding testing, you did. Please reread my post. I simply commented the reasons I was given from a very reliable source inside the company that it is a manufacturing issue, they are not set up for it and it is not cost effective.

I guess anyone could speculate and dream up so many reasons why they don't provide the custom work...at the end of the day it doesn't matter as Spike has already made their decision based upon what they told me. I believe the answer I was given.....

All you need to say is RTDP.....

Stands for "Read The Damn Post" [emoji16]

It would be perfectly acceptable to quote yourself.

 

[CodeSection]

All you need to say is RTDP.....

Stands for "Read The Damn Post" [emoji16]

It would be perfectly acceptable to quote yourself.

I'm glad you wrote what it stood for! Good to know as it would have saved me time. Here I thought I was being kinder and gentler....

 

[Schlenkerla]

I'm glad you wrote what it stood for! Good to know as it would have saved me time. Here I thought I was being kinder and gentler....

I had a college professor that always said RDS.

That's was his answer to all work assignments. RDS.

At first people would go, "Huh, what's RDS?" Prof would say "Read the damn sheet. It's all there. Read it, before you all questions!"

After awhile it got funny. Some idiot would ask a question and the whole class with say RDS in unison.

 

[ajw85]

You're a little late to the party

It's only been 8 pages!

 

[Schlenkerla]

What's 9 pages?

 

[kevink]

What's 9 pages?

Nothing yet.

 

[logdrum]

I give you The Hop Dropper!:

The idea is to load the basket at the start of fermentation, providing a temperature controlled (soon to be) oxygen free environment, then when the time comes, remove the green magnet & release the hops. Works outside of the fermentor, I’ve yet to try it on a brew. All magnets are vacuum sealed, and it holds on my Spike lid, because the lid only has a very slight magnetic pull.

 

[jturman35]

This is all I see!

On a more serious note, not a bad idea! I wonder how this affects the hops sitting out if you wait till week 1 or 2 of fermentation?

 

[logdrum]

This is all I see!

View attachment 643136



On a more serious note, not a bad idea! I wonder how this affects the hops sitting out if you wait till week 1 or 2 of fermentation?

We’re going to find out! Hopefully the c02 scrubbing & the cooling coil will mitigate any loss of aroma. I know Sierra Nevada keeps their bales in a slightly cool room, but open to the environment.