No boil all grain beer?

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fat_astronaut

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I was reading about brewing raw beers from all grain, and how long boils are only common since the addition of hops to beer.

I want to brew an all grain, no boil pale. I am going to mash hop to get my ibus, then hold the wort at 80*C until it is sterile. At this point I am going to add hops for aroma, and do a dry hop addition as well.

My recipe will be something like 90% 2 row, 5% of both wheat and crystal 60. Even using these malts, do you think there is a danger of DMS? Have you ever brewed a no boil beer like this? Any suggestions?

Thanks! :ban:
 
I dont think there will be any bitterness. hops need to get hotter than 150-160 degrees to extract any perceivable bitterness
 
JonM said:
There's not a danger of DMS - my guess is that there is an iron-clad certainty of DMS.
Click to expand...

I was going to use all 2 row, which I believe will have less SMM to convert to DMS than if I was to use pilsener. Perhaps I should make it with a ton of wheat; I assume wheat has very low levels of SMM, because of Berliner Weisse traditionally not being boiled. I also read that higher gravity beers, and darker beers should mask any DMS that is present. Maybe make it closer to an ESB in colour. I was also reading that SMM converts to DMS at 60*C, but I want to raise the temp higher than that for sterilization purposes, so I may be pooched. If there is DMS, can I scrub it out with C02? As I said, no boil beers were not uncommon in the past, but perhaps they just didn't mind the taste of cooked vegetables in their brews?


And as for the bitterness, I am thinking of going the route of ISOHOP hop oil. It looks to be more economical than mash hopping. I was considering hop tea as well, but oils might just be easier.
 
I found that account of DMS forming at 140*F/60*C on one site, but someone else told me that SMM is converted to DMS at around 175-180*F, or around 80*C.

There has also been talks of Gose and Sahti being unboiled, with no discernable DMS.

It will be an interesting experiment. I am thinking I am going to bring it to 165*F/74*C, and hold there for 5 minutes.
 
Why not boil?

Just to say you did it? Or is there an issue getting your full volume to a rolling boil?
 
Psylocide said:
Why not boil?

Just to say you did it? Or is there an issue getting your full volume to a rolling boil?
Click to expand...

No, I want to have a beer that doesn't have a hot break or a cold break. I want to retain all that protein and particulate that drops out during boil and cooling, because I assume it will change the flavour and mouthfeel. Much in the same that I often prefer an unfiltered beer to a filtered one for many styles, I am hoping that this will create a pleasantly different beer.
 
Mash hops put alphas into the wort which then becomes bitterness in the boil. If you don't boil, expect the beer to sour via lacto. Maybe not a bad beer, but definitely not going to make anything you're used to drinking.
 
Bobby_M said:
Mash hops put alphas into the wort which then becomes bitterness in the boil. If you don't boil, expect the beer to sour via lacto. Maybe not a bad beer, but definitely not going to make anything you're used to drinking.
Click to expand...

I think I will be okay with lacto, because it should all die at 165*F.

But I didn't think about the hops not bittering if I don't boil. I guess I could make a hop tea. Will water hold bitterness, or does it need sugar of some sort? I could make a tea with the sparge water.
 
Pasteurization is not sterilization. Your beer will still grow wild bugs, it will just take longer to happen. And depending on what gets killed off and what survives, it may be horrendous as a result. This isn't a good plan.
 
What Bobby M was saying is that one of the benefits of hops is they retard bacterial growth.
There are bacteria and yeast in the air. Even if the wort is sterile, when you open your kettle to chill or transfer or or open your fermentor to pitch yeast, some can get in your wort. Even if they are eventually killed by the alcohol and low pH from the yeast, they may have reproduced enough to generate off flavors.


If you really want "natural" beer, don't use a sanitizer either. Rinse with soapy water and a sponge, and ready for the next batch. :drunk:
 
I am thinking of boiling the hops in the sparge water for an hour while the mash converts. Then I will cool it and sparge with the bittered water.

I am planning on having IBUs in the range of an IPA, so that should help in inhibiting bug growth, right?
 
fat_astronaut said:
I was reading about brewing raw beers from all grain, and how long boils are only common since the addition of hops to beer.

I want to brew an all grain, no boil pale. I am going to mash hop to get my ibus, then hold the wort at 80*C until it is sterile. At this point I am going to add hops for aroma, and do a dry hop addition as well.

My recipe will be something like 90% 2 row, 5% of both wheat and crystal 60. Even using these malts, do you think there is a danger of DMS? Have you ever brewed a no boil beer like this? Any suggestions?
Click to expand...
There's a BYO magazine article about this from 2001, but they used hopped extract. The article explains how the extract was already boiled, so you really don't have to.
I think its worth trying with all grain, I would make 3/4 of a gallon and use a 1 gallon jug as a fermentor. Maybe boil water with hops for 15 mins and use that for a mashout. It will take more grain to reach the same OG (as a boiled beer) because you don't have the water loss through evaporation during the boil.
Let us know how it comes out!
 
fat_astronaut said:
I think I will be okay with lacto, because it should all die at 165*F.

But I didn't think about the hops not bittering if I don't boil. I guess I could make a hop tea. Will water hold bitterness, or does it need sugar of some sort? I could make a tea with the sparge water.
Click to expand...

If you hold temps around 180 (maybe a little higher or lower), I'd think you'd still get some isomerization of the hops.
 
I've begun 1gal 'test' batches 'cause of limited equpt. vols. Start w/ ~1# blender-crushed grain, 1gal. water 'blend', and sparge with CO2, then do a ramped mash from about 80F up to 152-154F, and hold for 1hr.
Cool, remove grain, let settle o.n., siphon off top 3.6 liter and filter the dregs o.n.
Next day, add filtrate, toss dregs. Take all readings: S.G., pH, etc.
Can add more/less grain to taste, whatever, it's your mash. Now you got a basic mash soln.
I use hop extract, isomerize at 180-200F, get noooooooooo DMS, and plenty of bittering.
Now, you can get creative. Good luck. Can make lots of these, as my town dump has free 1gal jugs. Can line 'em up to siphon, whatever. Lots easier to brink up/down stairs for temp control.
Don't let 'experts' scare you off experimenting.
 
Qhrumphf said:
I'm still scratching my head as to why you'd want to do this for any reason beyond wanting a sour beer. Is it just to see if it can be done?
Click to expand...

I couldn't find the article about "raw beer" by searching raw beer in google, but there was an article I read recently on the subject. I am expecting a different mouth feel for the beer, due to the protein not dropping out during hot break or cold break. One point was made during the article, that raw beer is meant to be drank fresh.

I have had an interest in brewing some historical beer styles. I am planning on doing a spontaneous fermented beer soon as well.

As for souring the beer, why do you say this will be soured more than a beer that is boiled? I think holding the wort at 165 for 5 minutes will kill any beer spoilage bacteria, will it not? Why would this have any chance for bacteria to form more than a beer that you boiled? I am hopping it, it will have yeast added after chilling it quickly and being placed into a sanitized fermentor. Maybe I am misunderstanding what you are telling me, but I don't see why it should sour, if any lactobacillus and pediococcus are dead.
 
The 'rule of thumb' is to Pasteurize at 180F for 10 min. Only be sure to heat ALL things that contact the wort; don't put a soiled spoon into cooled wort. Get it?
 
fat_astronaut said:
I couldn't find the article about "raw beer" by searching raw beer in google, but there was an article I read recently on the subject. I am expecting a different mouth feel for the beer, due to the protein not dropping out during hot break or cold break. One point was made during the article, that raw beer is meant to be drank fresh.

I have had an interest in brewing some historical beer styles. I am planning on doing a spontaneous fermented beer soon as well.

As for souring the beer, why do you say this will be soured more than a beer that is boiled? I think holding the wort at 165 for 5 minutes will kill any beer spoilage bacteria, will it not? Why would this have any chance for bacteria to form more than a beer that you boiled? I am hopping it, it will have yeast added after chilling it quickly and being placed into a sanitized fermentor. Maybe I am misunderstanding what you are telling me, but I don't see why it should sour, if any lactobacillus and pediococcus are dead.
Click to expand...

Because, as I said, pasteurizing is not sterilizing. Even boiling doesn't sterilize. But it's a lot more effective than pasteurization. And the problem with this method, even if you were to kill pedio and lacto, other more heat resistant bugs may survive. Numbers would definitely be reduced. But not eliminated. Best case scenario is you reduce the population low enough that your primary yeast outcompetes and you don't notice. But I'd anticipate off-flavors regardless, if not actual sourness.

The no-boil method is traditionally done WITH sour beer, where in addition to having alcohol, you're also driving the pH down to a point were harmful enteric bugs naturally present on grains cannot survive. My major worry, considering that boiling wort ALSO drives the pH down, is that any harmful bug, or at least a bug with the ability to produce something really nasty tasting, is able to survive, since you're effectively taking away some of the major conditions that have made beer safe throughout history, namely a boil and inhospitable pH.

Now, that's probably me being paranoid and I doubt this'd make you sick, but I don't see the flavor coming out well. Plus, I doubt you'll be able to get anywhere near the IBUs you want. And you're already aware of the protein that you'll be left with.

By all means try it if you want, but I can't figure out any logical reason outside of pure curiosity. And if that's it, then knock yourself out ;)
 
giraffe said:
There are no boil lithuanian styles of beer. http://www.garshol.priv.no/blog/ this guy blogs about some of the lithuanian farmhouse styles. They arent described as sour, but are noted to not be very stable, or travel well.
Click to expand...

Thank you! This was the article I had been talking about, that had inspired this whole idea. It does say that it is possible, albeit less stable than boiled beer. But, no beer will stay good forever, and this style is supposed to be drank fresh anyway.

Plus, it talks of a lot of these unboiled beers to be unhopped, and they can still last months. I am planning on hopping, and keeping it cold in a keg after fermentation completes, so I should be okay.

I will post results in the coming weeks.
 
On the left side of the page there is a link to his book on lithuanian beer, there is a free pdf. There is alot of info in there. Ive always been tempted to try to make some of the many styles talked about, but always think better of it at the last minute. It is intriguing though.
 
Boil your bittering hops in your sparge water as you'd been planning, pasteurize at 180°, pitch healthy yeast in a timely manner, you'll be fine. IPA levels of IBUs will make quick work of any lacto or most other things that may survive the pasteurization, and anything that does still manage to squeak through (or gets sneezed in by your cat or whatever) will be out-competed by zillions of pitched yeast cells.

Long as you're boiling those hops in something, I don't see that this is dramatically dirtier than the standard process – you'll get more contamination sucking ambient air into your kettle when your wort contracts as it cools than you will surviving the pasteurization.
 
Funny that this should come up.

I recently read this http://www.experimentalbrew.com/content/no-boil-experiment and decided to give it a go. I only do one gallon batches so if it's spoiled it's not a huge deal. I also recently had a miscommunication with the guys I order consumables from and ended up with a bag of mix malts I wasn't sure what to do with.
So I did one brew using my usual method (biab with one hour boil) and another with no boil. Hops wise, I just had them in the mash so it definitely won't be as bitter as the other one. Did a major 60 min addition and threw some in for the last 15 min.
Mashed out to between 75 and 80C for ten minutes as I'd read DMS forms above 80C and wanted to give it as much heat as I could to give it every chance to kill off unwanted bugs.
I overpitched my yeast a bit, again in an attempt to make it the most viable bug in the wort so the others didn't get a chance.

I just bottled the second (no-boil) batch last night so I'll be able to compare in a couple of weeks.

Things that I've observed being different so far:
My efficiencies weren't the same which resulted in a higher OG for the no-boil beer. I think I mashed full volume (fermenter volume) on that one whereas I dunk sparged for the boiled one to get more volume in the kettle. Maybe I just payed more attention to the no-boil as I new the mash had to go just right.
The no-boil fermented out lower. Strange as the OG was higher. Perhaps to do with the overpitch and maybe there were favourable compounds left which would have been removed with a hot and cold break. Possible sign of infection? Yeast on both batches was S-33 which isn't known for a low final gravity but the no-boil got down to 1.008 and pretty much 1% stronger than the boiled batch.
No off tastes noticed going into the bottle but I didn't have a big sample.

I expect the two will be quite different beers. I'm looking forward to seeing how much process affects a beer with identical ingredients. Update in a couple of weeks. :D

Edit: As to the question of "why?" For me the joy of homebrew is all about reading new ideas and experimentation, hence only doing one-gallon batches, so this fits the bill perfectly.
 
fat_astronaut said:
No, I want to have a beer that doesn't have a hot break or a cold break. I want to retain all that protein and particulate that drops out during boil and cooling, because I assume it will change the flavour and mouthfeel. Much in the same that I often prefer an unfiltered beer to a filtered one for many styles, I am hoping that this will create a pleasantly different beer.
Click to expand...

Go for 6-row or even try a 100% oat malt beer as your base. That will add more prominent graininess.

You can do a no boil beer. Mash as normal and raise to 180F for 10 minutes. I did this several times and never got DMS with Maris Otter as a base malt. You have to make damn sure your equipment is clean though and your mash tun valve can potentially contaminate it.

I wrote up most of what I was doing with no boil beers here: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/mash-sparge-hopping-no-boil-beers-of-all-kinds.html

It works on blonde ales, stouts, sours, etc. There isn't really a graininess to it though. 100% oat malt sounds like it will work though.
 
Qhrumphf said:
Because, as I said, pasteurizing is not sterilizing. Even boiling doesn't sterilize. But it's a lot more effective than pasteurization. And the problem with this method, even if you were to kill pedio and lacto, other more heat resistant bugs may survive. Numbers would definitely be reduced. But not eliminated. Best case scenario is you reduce the population low enough that your primary yeast outcompetes and you don't notice. But I'd anticipate off-flavors regardless, if not actual sourness.
Click to expand...


What pathenogenic bacteria, or spoiling organisms are going to survive 180F wort that is cooled and has yeast pitched into it?

Botulism isn't a problem.
Neither are thermophiles (Archaea).
What else?

My thought is the risk isn't the 180F pasturization, its that the wort isn't hopped and susceptible to bacteria landing in it when cooled during chilling or transferring.
 
ArcLight said:
What pathenogenic bacteria, or spoiling organisms are going to survive 180F wort that is cooled and has yeast pitched into it?

Botulism isn't a problem.
Neither are thermophiles (Archaea).
What else?

My thought is the risk isn't the 180F pasturization, its that the wort isn't hopped and susceptible to bacteria landing in it when cooled during chilling or transferring.
Click to expand...

I don't know off the top of my head. I'm going off of the fact that pasteurization is not a 100% kill rate (if it were, unopened milk wouldn't go sour, would it?). It's a REDUCTION of bacteria. I don't know what would or wouldn't survive, or in what percentages, but it's unlikely that anything would be 100% killed. But at higher temp and duration (boiling for 60+ mins as normal), it's going to be more effective (and even then still not 100%) than wort spending less time at 180.

I also said that it would probably be good enough, especially when billions of yeast cells are introduced that would out-compete, that it likely wouldn't be harmful.

Obviously no boil beers have been done. I'm aware of the traditional Berliner Weiss method. Wasn't aware of the other ones linked. But Berliner Weiss also relies on abundantly present lactic bacteria on the grain driving the pH down to well below where most enteric stuff can't survive, and if you've ever had a poorly executed sour mash you know that it can still get very very nasty (I don't know about harmful). And if you pasteurize first, and effectively reduce the non-harmful lactic bacteria, you could be providing less competition for the enteric stuff.

I don't know. I'm not a microbiologist. Maybe I'm full of sh**. But like I said, probably wouldn't be harmful, but I'd be worried about off-flavors. They've already said it's not stable beer, so I can't be too wrong about that, can I?
 
Ok, for those who are interested I was able to do a comparative tasting of my two beers.

Grain Bill for both as follows: (due to miscommunication with my regular supplier I ended up with a super weird mix all in one bag, hence using it up on experiments)

0.2 kg 2-row
0.2 kg Munich
0.2 kg Dark Munich
0.2 kg Red-X
0.1 kg Medium Crystal
0.02 kg Torrefied Wheat
0.02 kg Flaked Barley
0.02 kg Brown Malt
0.02 kg Cherrywood Smoked

0.98 kg total for 4.5 L batch (1-gallon)

Target OG - 11 Brix (1.044)

Yeast: S-33

Beer 1: Normal BIaB and boil method

Method

60 min boil
Summer hops 6 g (5.3% AA) @ First Wort
and 6 g 10 mins remaining boil

OG - 11 Brix (same as target)
FG - 3.87 Brix (adjusted)
ABV - 3.86 %

Tasting Notes


Appearance: Very Cloudy Brown. Tan head which stuck around for a while. Lacing down glass.

Aroma: Melon Fruitiness.

Taste: Hop fruit flavour and just enough bitterness (could probably use more). Muddled maltiness. A hint of butteriness perhaps (could be DMS or something weird from the malt mix)?

Mouthfeel: Fairly Full. Carbonation sizzle on first taste.

Beer 2: BIaB and NO-boil.

Method

60 min mash with mash out to 75 C and then held for ten minutes.

6 g Summer (5.3% AA) at Mash in
6 g Summer at beginning of mash out heating.

OG - 12.25 Brix (1.049) (higher than target, unplanned higher efficiency)
FG - 2.92 Brix (Adjusted) (went lower than expected and than the other beer even though OG was higher)
ABV - 5.08 %

Tasting Notes

Appearance: Cloudy Brown with a hint of red. Big Tan head which faded quickly. No lacing on glass.

Aroma: Mostly malty with a little melon fruit.

Taste: Malt forward. Only a hint of bitterness and hop flavour. Another flavour I can't quite pick really dominates everything, as I go down the glass it's more obviously buttery so I assume DMS (no other experience of it). Higher alcohol content not perceived just that strong butteriness.

Mouthfeel: Very full, even thick. Well carbonated.


Anyway, that's my impression of the two beers. I've previously had one of the no-boil beers with dinner and thought it was ok, so I must have just lucked out and combined it with a dish where I didn't notice the DMS, I'll have to wait and see if it ages out at all. The glass I poured tonight, well, let's just say that I finished the boiled one. :mug:
 
Butteriness typically comes from diacytel, which is a by-product of fermentation (some yeasts throw off more than others). I wouldn't think that a no-boil would be the cause of diacytel, but who knows.

Diacytel is the chemical used to produce the fake butter flavor in buttered popcorn. I have had one beer that this happened to and it was undrinkable (I found it disgusting).
 
Thanks for the input guys. I did wonder if it was infected as it attenuated so much lower than the boiled beer. I say "butteriness" but I'm trying to describe something I can't quite place, taste-wise, not having tasted it in a beer before. It was overpowering and the second half of the glass and bottle went down the sink.

I think I'll eventually repeat the experiment but with a plainer grain bill. Perhaps just a smash, 2-row and Kohatu or something, and use bry-97 which gets me consistent results. Thanks for reading guys, love learning things on here.
 
all ale was no-boil until hops came around (in the 1500's in england, a little earlier elsewhere). I've done this twice with a "traditional" medieval grain bill (75% malted oats, 12% malted wheat, 12% malted barley), once with hops and once with gruit.

If you "cheat" and keep the mash temp at ~150 the entire time, the chances of infection appear less. Mashing just enough to get your 5 gallons and aiming for a higher % alcohol also helps. (I also chilled with a wort chiller rather than let is cool on its own, so not entirely authentic. But if your are going for authentic, you have to drink it all in <1 week. The english laws were very specific that no ale could be sold if it was >7 days old)

Both time, ended up with low FG (~1.010), very drinkable. Makes for a short brew day.
 

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