No boil all grain beer?

[ArcLight]

Because, as I said, pasteurizing is not sterilizing. Even boiling doesn't sterilize. But it's a lot more effective than pasteurization. And the problem with this method, even if you were to kill pedio and lacto, other more heat resistant bugs may survive. Numbers would definitely be reduced. But not eliminated. Best case scenario is you reduce the population low enough that your primary yeast outcompetes and you don't notice. But I'd anticipate off-flavors regardless, if not actual sourness.

What pathenogenic bacteria, or spoiling organisms are going to survive 180F wort that is cooled and has yeast pitched into it?

Botulism isn't a problem.
Neither are thermophiles (Archaea).
What else?

My thought is the risk isn't the 180F pasturization, its that the wort isn't hopped and susceptible to bacteria landing in it when cooled during chilling or transferring.

 

[Qhrumphf]

What pathenogenic bacteria, or spoiling organisms are going to survive 180F wort that is cooled and has yeast pitched into it?

Botulism isn't a problem.
Neither are thermophiles (Archaea).
What else?

My thought is the risk isn't the 180F pasturization, its that the wort isn't hopped and susceptible to bacteria landing in it when cooled during chilling or transferring.

I don't know off the top of my head. I'm going off of the fact that pasteurization is not a 100% kill rate (if it were, unopened milk wouldn't go sour, would it?). It's a REDUCTION of bacteria. I don't know what would or wouldn't survive, or in what percentages, but it's unlikely that anything would be 100% killed. But at higher temp and duration (boiling for 60+ mins as normal), it's going to be more effective (and even then still not 100%) than wort spending less time at 180.

I also said that it would probably be good enough, especially when billions of yeast cells are introduced that would out-compete, that it likely wouldn't be harmful.

Obviously no boil beers have been done. I'm aware of the traditional Berliner Weiss method. Wasn't aware of the other ones linked. But Berliner Weiss also relies on abundantly present lactic bacteria on the grain driving the pH down to well below where most enteric stuff can't survive, and if you've ever had a poorly executed sour mash you know that it can still get very very nasty (I don't know about harmful). And if you pasteurize first, and effectively reduce the non-harmful lactic bacteria, you could be providing less competition for the enteric stuff.

I don't know. I'm not a microbiologist. Maybe I'm full of sh**. But like I said, probably wouldn't be harmful, but I'd be worried about off-flavors. They've already said it's not stable beer, so I can't be too wrong about that, can I?

 

[slym2none]

You should just buy some commercial beer and save yourself the bellyache.

And boom goes the dynamite.

 

[adamtbest]

No boil is a bad idea. Like others said it kills the bad stuff and keeps the good stuff

 

[brisboy]

Ok, for those who are interested I was able to do a comparative tasting of my two beers.

Grain Bill for both as follows: (due to miscommunication with my regular supplier I ended up with a super weird mix all in one bag, hence using it up on experiments)

0.2 kg 2-row
0.2 kg Munich
0.2 kg Dark Munich
0.2 kg Red-X
0.1 kg Medium Crystal
0.02 kg Torrefied Wheat
0.02 kg Flaked Barley
0.02 kg Brown Malt
0.02 kg Cherrywood Smoked

0.98 kg total for 4.5 L batch (1-gallon)

Target OG - 11 Brix (1.044)

Yeast: S-33

Beer 1: Normal BIaB and boil method

Method

60 min boil
Summer hops 6 g (5.3% AA) @ First Wort
and 6 g 10 mins remaining boil

OG - 11 Brix (same as target)
FG - 3.87 Brix (adjusted)
ABV - 3.86 %

Tasting Notes


Appearance: Very Cloudy Brown. Tan head which stuck around for a while. Lacing down glass.

Aroma: Melon Fruitiness.

Taste: Hop fruit flavour and just enough bitterness (could probably use more). Muddled maltiness. A hint of butteriness perhaps (could be DMS or something weird from the malt mix)?

Mouthfeel: Fairly Full. Carbonation sizzle on first taste.

Beer 2: BIaB and NO-boil.

Method

60 min mash with mash out to 75 C and then held for ten minutes.

6 g Summer (5.3% AA) at Mash in
6 g Summer at beginning of mash out heating.

OG - 12.25 Brix (1.049) (higher than target, unplanned higher efficiency)
FG - 2.92 Brix (Adjusted) (went lower than expected and than the other beer even though OG was higher)
ABV - 5.08 %

Tasting Notes

Appearance: Cloudy Brown with a hint of red. Big Tan head which faded quickly. No lacing on glass.

Aroma: Mostly malty with a little melon fruit.

Taste: Malt forward. Only a hint of bitterness and hop flavour. Another flavour I can't quite pick really dominates everything, as I go down the glass it's more obviously buttery so I assume DMS (no other experience of it). Higher alcohol content not perceived just that strong butteriness.

Mouthfeel: Very full, even thick. Well carbonated.


Anyway, that's my impression of the two beers. I've previously had one of the no-boil beers with dinner and thought it was ok, so I must have just lucked out and combined it with a dish where I didn't notice the DMS, I'll have to wait and see if it ages out at all. The glass I poured tonight, well, let's just say that I finished the boiled one.

 

[ReverseMonk]

Butteriness typically comes from diacytel, which is a by-product of fermentation (some yeasts throw off more than others). I wouldn't think that a no-boil would be the cause of diacytel, but who knows.

Diacytel is the chemical used to produce the fake butter flavor in buttered popcorn. I have had one beer that this happened to and it was undrinkable (I found it disgusting).

 

[Qhrumphf]

Yep, diacetyl and not DMS. Diacetyl can also come from infection. Wild yeast and bugs (especially Pedio) can throw off a lot of diacetyl.

 

[brisboy]

Thanks for the input guys. I did wonder if it was infected as it attenuated so much lower than the boiled beer. I say "butteriness" but I'm trying to describe something I can't quite place, taste-wise, not having tasted it in a beer before. It was overpowering and the second half of the glass and bottle went down the sink.

I think I'll eventually repeat the experiment but with a plainer grain bill. Perhaps just a smash, 2-row and Kohatu or something, and use bry-97 which gets me consistent results. Thanks for reading guys, love learning things on here.

 

[bonsai4tim]

all ale was no-boil until hops came around (in the 1500's in england, a little earlier elsewhere). I've done this twice with a "traditional" medieval grain bill (75% malted oats, 12% malted wheat, 12% malted barley), once with hops and once with gruit.

If you "cheat" and keep the mash temp at ~150 the entire time, the chances of infection appear less. Mashing just enough to get your 5 gallons and aiming for a higher % alcohol also helps. (I also chilled with a wort chiller rather than let is cool on its own, so not entirely authentic. But if your are going for authentic, you have to drink it all in <1 week. The english laws were very specific that no ale could be sold if it was >7 days old)

Both time, ended up with low FG (~1.010), very drinkable. Makes for a short brew day.