Newbie wants to try lagers as first brew..Advice needed

[Dabba]

So I helped my buddy brew some beer from kits a few times and have been reading up and have a relatively simple understand of the process. The area I'm in has an abundance of IPAs available, but no good German beer. I was thinking of starting off making a Munich Dunkel and a Munich Helles. However, I can't really find many kits for them and I'm thinking if I can understand some of these recipes I find online I could put the pieces together myself and brew it. However it's still a little beyond me.

I understand the ratio of the grain, however how do I know how much total I need for 5 gallons? I see a lot of people process the grain themselves, are there options to buy it already processed? Also, in the kits I've helped with, we've only steeped in a single temperature range for ~20 mins, but I'm seeing recipes with multiple steps in steeping at different temp ranges for different times, is it as simple as that?

Also, my basement sits at a very constant 60F. A little high for some of the yeast I've been looking at on wyestlabs for these styles. Are lagers not an option at 60F or are there any strains that I can use at that temp? The preferred yeast has a range of 48-56.. so off by 4 degrees!

Thanks guys

PS: I know going my own with a lager probably isnt the best to start off... but I need some delicious dunkel.

 

[tgolanos]

Note: Mostly everything's in metric. It's too early in the morning for conversions for me.

Brewing a lager (or any beer for that matter) from grain is fairly simple. Temperature is your biggest concern, here.

As far as grain, you can buy it pre-milled from any LHBS. The amount you need is dependent on how strong you'd like your beer and what your extraction efficiency is (how much sugar is in the grain vs what you get out of it). For 5 US Gallons, I'd aim for around 4kg of grain all together; 3kg of pils malt, 0.95kg pale or Munich malt and 50g of melanoidin for flavor. You could also keep some DME or LME on hand in case you want a higher ABV or more body.

Mash temps will depend on how much body you want. Higher mash temps will give you less fermentable sugars while lower temps will produce a drier beer. I'd shoot for mashing at 66°C for 60 minutes. After this, proceed to boil as normal.

60°F isn't too bad of a starting ambient temperature. I think it's too high for a lager, but you could experiment. You could use a Kölsch yeast at that temp, or look into placing your fermenter into an ice bath or swamp cooler (plenty of threads on both). That being said, I fermented a lager at 20°C using Czech lager yeast that turned out fine. So anything's possible.

 

[Sadu]

Not wanting to discourage, but there are a few reasons why people usually start off with ales. YMMV.

The main reasons quoted is that they are more difficult since the clean flavours don't hide your mistakes like a pale ale or stout would, and the lower ferment temperature is harder to maintain for new brewers with minimal gear.

This is all true, but much overlooked is the fact that lagers generally take longer. While you can be easily smashing a delicious pale ale inside a month, lagers don't always taste great out of the gate and sometimes just need more time. I find about 3 months optimum for a lager. When you are new you want to start hitting the beer goodness asap so this can be an issue.

That said, it's your brew so if you are up for the challenge, all good. Try the w34/70 dry yeast which can ferment well a bit higher than other lager yeasts might. Don't think that dry yeast is somehow inferior to liquid - this strain is a workhorse and I have had excellent results for all lager types.

With all-grain brewing you need to mill / crush / process the grains which you get done at the shop if you don't have a grain crusher. You will need to mash the grains at a fixed temperature (usually 150ish) for 60-90 mins, this is recipe dependent. Some recipes will say to do rests at different steps along the way - this is the authentic German way of doing things but definitely not something you want to try on the first brewday. You want to do a "single infusion mash" which means mashing at the same temperature the whole time.

Definitely look at a swamp cooler - this means you put the fermentor in a tub of water and swap out ice bottles to keep it as close to 50c as you can. This is particularly important for the first 3-4 days, but after you can let it ride out to ambient temperatures without issues. Any off-flavours caused by high temps will happen in the first few days so this is when you want to keep things controlled.

The dunkel is also a better choice than the helles - more flavour to mask any mistakes that you might make, although the process is basically the same.

Good luck!

 

[z-bob]

Saflager 34/70 should work just fine at 60F. But the yeast gives off heat during fermentation, so a water bath that you add ice too occasionally for the first few days might be necessary to keep the temperature down.

Or take a German lager recipe and brew it as a pale ale; just keep the temperature on the cool side and don't worry about it. I haven't tried a lager yet because I don't have the temperature control for the lagering step (cold treatment after fermentation)

I just brewed a 4 gallon batch of German-ish pale ale yesterday. I'm fermenting it in a cool basement with K-97 yeast. 6.5 lbs Belgian pilsner malt, 1 lb Munich, 4 oz sauermalz. The OG was 1.053. So for the amount of grain you'll need, about 2 pounds per gallon for something between 5% and 6% ABV, closer to 6%.

 

[Dabba]

Thank you all for the quick advice and explanation of the of the terms such as "single infusion mash" and such. Theses rests are pausing and holding the temperatures for a set amount of time and then increasing until the next rest? Funny about the swamp cooler, I have a large sink in the basement that's deep and I can easily fill with water and keep the fermenter in. I was actually going to take a temp of the water and see what it sits at coming out of the tap. I don't have too much time to babysit though with ice since im out of the house for 12-14 hours a day so...I guess ill see what the water will sit at first, or use the 34/70.

What effect would it have on brewing a dunkel as a pale ale with ale yeast and temps?

Also, I've look at a ton of guides and they seem to tell me what I already know: The basics. Is there a guide that can tell me some information like you guys just did, like the effects of a longer vs shorter mash, or mash temps on the overall character of a beer? Same with grain concentration. I know a lot of it is experimentation but I'd like a little more in depth knowledge before attempting this.

I'm just going to be copying a recipe anyway, but I always like to know why I'm doing certain things!

 

[mongoose33]

So I helped my buddy brew some beer from kits a few times and have been reading up and have a relatively simple understand of the process. The area I'm in has an abundance of IPAs available, but no good German beer. I was thinking of starting off making a Munich Dunkel and a Munich Helles. However, I can't really find many kits for them and I'm thinking if I can understand some of these recipes I find online I could put the pieces together myself and brew it. However it's still a little beyond me.

I understand the ratio of the grain, however how do I know how much total I need for 5 gallons? I see a lot of people process the grain themselves, are there options to buy it already processed? Also, in the kits I've helped with, we've only steeped in a single temperature range for ~20 mins, but I'm seeing recipes with multiple steps in steeping at different temp ranges for different times, is it as simple as that?

Also, my basement sits at a very constant 60F. A little high for some of the yeast I've been looking at on wyestlabs for these styles. Are lagers not an option at 60F or are there any strains that I can use at that temp? The preferred yeast has a range of 48-56.. so off by 4 degrees!

Thanks guys

PS: I know going my own with a lager probably isnt the best to start off... but I need some delicious dunkel.

Well, I suppose it's theoretically possible you might produce something delicious, but IMO you should do a simple brew a couple times to learn the process. Brewing is in many ways simple, but not simplistic, and the more variables you have to get right to have something turn out acceptably, the harder it is to nail them all.

IMO, the three most important things for a brewer to focus on are sanitation, water, and fermentation temperature. If you're thinking about doing all-grain, you need to concern yourself with the water composition. if you're thinking of brewing a lager, you need to concern yourself with fermentation temperature.

I believe that the simpler the recipe and process for a new brewer, the more likely it is that the new brewer will produce drinkable beer. Find a simple ale recipe that looks interesting and brew that. A cream ale, perhaps, or even a SMASH (single malt and single hop) beer.

While it's possible a new brewer might pull off an all-grain brew as their first one, it's not the way to bet. The more variables you have to get right that first time, the harder it is to isolate the mistakes if you make one. Just getting the water right can be a project, and if you don't, that delicious dunkel you have in mind can turn into a dumper.

If you know someone who does all-grain and can watch them do a brew day, or have them help you do one, that would negate some of the concerns. But learning at a reasonable pace is more likely to reward you. Might help to think about where you want to be three or six months from now, instead of wanting it all immediately.

My 2 cents. Either way, good luck, and enjoy the journey!

 

[HomebrewHandicapper]

Maybe check out Biermuncher's recipes. Helles Bells and OktoberFAST are both "lager like" recipes which use an ale yeast. These would work better with your fermentation temps. Good luck.

 

[whovous]

Swamp cooler - Fill several two liter bottles with water and toss them in the freezer. Toss one in the cooler each morning, and replace it each night. That, combined with your 60F ambient basement temp might get into workable lager territory.

 

[ChelisHubby]

I would recommend that you use Nottingham yeast it will ferment almost Lager like under 60 and still make good beer under 64.

 

[Dabba]

Hmm. After doing some more research and with your advice I decided to stick to extract brewing for now and not do all grain. Would my goal of a Munich Dunkel still be possible? Can I get the proper grains in extract form and still use the same ratios? I guess I'd need to figure out how much extract to use...

So my tap water sits in the sink at a nice 56F. I know water has a high specific heat but would it be viable to sit the fermenter in this water? I'd probably have to swap the water every so often... hopefully not more than once or twice a day or its no go or I'd need to add 2l bottles of ice...

I'd brew a pale ale.. but there all so many commercial options that I'd rather drink... (southern tier is amazing, though I'd want a crack at making their retired 422 wheat pale ale)

 

[Kent88]

60F would be almost the ideal temperature for something like Wyeast 1007, which can be very lager-like. There are lots of people who are trying out fermenting their lagers into the low 60F range and getting good results.

You can buy munich malt extract syrup and probably make a decent Dunkel-ish beer from that. Haven't seen any dry munich extract.

Look up cooling methods such as the t-shirt swamp cooler, like @whovous suggests you could include some ice packs as well.

 

[Dabba]

https://www.brewersfriend.com/homebrew/recipe/view/440821/dunkel

What do you guys think about something like this, except maybe swapping the yeast to be safe with the fermented, unless you guys think keeping the fermented in the water bath will suffice.

 

[mongoose33]

https://www.brewersfriend.com/homebrew/recipe/view/440821/dunkel

What do you guys think about something like this, except maybe swapping the yeast to be safe with the fermented, unless you guys think keeping the fermented in the water bath will suffice.

Why not? The key is fermentation temp, the rest looks fine.

You really have to separate processes with which to concern yourself: the actual brewing and racking to fermenter, and the fermentation temp process itself.

I like the recipe as a first one--pretty straightforward, and you're brewing something you like.

I recently brewed a lager and used an accelerated lagering schedule. It had me grain-to-glass in about a month, and further lagering has smoothed it out even more.

There are many variations; the one I used had me fermenting at 50 degrees until the gravity had dropped halfway to finish (in other words, original gravity was 1.050, I expected to end at 1.010, so halfway was 1.030). Then I ramped the temp up four degrees every 12 hours until I hit 66 degrees, held it there for a couple days, then started taking it down to 32 degrees, dropping it 6 degrees every 12 hours.

Once there, I let it sit a couple days at 32, then kegged it and let it lager in my keezer at 38 degrees.

Now--I know you may or may not be able to match this given your situation, but you may be able to come close. It would let you brew the beer you want, and you still will have beer in a glass within a relatively short period of time.

Could you do this with ice bottles? Sure. You just need to insulate the fermenter so it doesn't attract heat from ambient, and keep it roughly there.

Beer brewing is actually a fairly resilient process provided you stay within certain parameters. In my fast lagering schedule above, would it matter if you went up by 5 degrees instead of 4 degrees? Or took 14 hours instead of 12? Not likely, and probably not even tasteable. As long as you're close to it, it'll work.

The larger problem is probably how you're going to lager over a long period of time. If you bottle condition, then you do that in your refrigerator. And you exercise patience while the beer lagers and conditions. If you can. Which you probably can't. Nobody can.

Anyway, I think that's a good recipe, might even take a shot at it myself in all-grain.

 

[crunch1224]

If you want to brew a AG brew use a BIAB do a no sparge. It is easy there's nothing complicated about it. After you do your mash its just like extract brewing. The problem like others have said is fermentation temps for a Lager. Until you can muster up some bucks for a mini fridge and a temp controller, just make another style that doesn't require such a low fermentation temperature.

 

[Newsman]

If you want to brew a AG brew use a BIAB do a no sparge. It is easy there's nothing complicated about it. After you do your mash its just like extract brewing. The problem like others have said is fermentation temps for a Lager. Until you can muster up some bucks for a mini fridge and a temp controller, just make another style that doesn't require such a low fermentation temperature.

Well... Devil's advocate here... You can get a full-size fridge off Craigs List for little to nothing, and you can buy a temp controller for under $50. Might be able to get both for $100 or less.

 

[Dabba]

Well... Devil's advocate here... You can get a full-size fridge off Craigs List for little to nothing, and you can buy a temp controller for under $50. Might be able to get both for $100 or less.

I was actually considering this. I really want the option to make a lager. I'd need to find something with the proper measurements then gut the fridge.

But now I have another question. Let's assume I can get fermentation temperature steady at 54-56F. Do I need to drop the temps to the 40s and 30s like the example above or can I just ferment it straight at 54-56F for three months. (I heard lagers take a lot longer). I don't mind waiting with the slow and steady game if that's an option. If I have to drop the temp, bottle conditioning is just bottling after fermentation and then leaving them in the fridge to lager for a set period of time? Because that is definitely do-able.

 

[Sadu]

Brew for 2 weeks, bottle, let them condition at room temp until carbonated (3 weeks approx) then into the fridge to lager. While lagering you can start drinking them of course, they typically get better over time but you first batch won't last

 

[crunch1224]

Well... Devil's advocate here... You can get a full-size fridge off Craigs List for little to nothing, and you can buy a temp controller for under $50. Might be able to get both for $100 or less.

Full size fridge, mini fridge, walk in fridge, upright freezer, chest freezer, walk in freezer, window ac unit, ect ect ect... All depends on how much cash you have and how much room you have. You could cut a hole in a out house and put a window ac unit in there and it will work.

 

[Dabba]

Brew for 2 weeks, bottle, let them condition at room temp until carbonated (3 weeks approx) then into the fridge to lager. While lagering you can start drinking them of course, they typically get better over time but you first batch won't last

Curious, but what effect/how does lagering work on the beer? Isnt fridge temps a little below the yeast range? So I assume fermentation isnt happening once you lager it, so what is happening that makes it better?

I think I'm gonna go this route to lager! I can resist drinking it for some time!

 

[Yooper]

Curious, but what effect/how does lagering work on the beer? Isnt fridge temps a little below the yeast range? So I assume fermentation isnt happening once you lager it, so what is happening that makes it better?

I think I'm gonna go this route to lager! I can resist drinking it for some time!

Lagering is done at cold temperatures, like at 33-34 degrees. It does several things- drops out excess polyphenols from the hops, and gives that "crisp" mouthfeel that distinguishes lagers from ales. It's done for an extended period typically- 4-6 weeks- so that's why you would bottle and carb up before lagering (unless lagering in a carboy or keg).

 

[madscientist451]

Brew an ale, when you figure how to ferment at 50F and have the capability to lager in the 30's, go for your lager.
An alternative is to use a San Franciso lager yeast which works pretty good at 56-60. You'll still need to cold condition your bottled beer after it carbs up.

 

[Dabba]

Lagering is done at cold temperatures, like at 33-34 degrees. It does several things- drops out excess polyphenols from the hops, and gives that "crisp" mouthfeel that distinguishes lagers from ales. It's done for an extended period typically- 4-6 weeks- so that's why you would bottle and carb up before lagering (unless lagering in a carboy or keg).

Thanks for the knowledge. Is there any differences between lagering in a carboy vs the bottles?

Brew an ale, when you figure how to ferment at 50F and have the capability to lager in the 30's, go for your lager.
An alternative is to use a San Franciso lager yeast which works pretty good at 56-60. You'll still need to cold condition your bottled beer after it carbs up.

I can condition it in the fridge just fine. I think I'm going to go that route, find a yeast that works in the mid 50s. Thanks for the suggestion. I'm going to research the yeast the fits the temp and fits the style the best and go for it!

 

[Sadu]

Thanks for the knowledge. Is there any differences between lagering in a carboy vs the bottles?

When you condition in the carboy most of the yeast drops out of suspension, then you bottle it. Because of less yeast it's going to take longer to carbonate, but the yeast cake at the bottom of the bottle will be very small. This is an important consideration with lagers, nothing ruins a perfectly clear lager like a crappy pour with chunks everywhere.

If you lager in the bottle, carbonation happens faster and the yeast cake is slightly bigger. I'm not convinced there is any difference in flavour between the 2 methods however.

Ultimately it comes down to personal preference and what equipment you have available. If you don't have room in the fridge for a carboy then it's a pretty easy decision.

Personally I like to lager for 3-4 weeks in bulk, then bottle condition 3-4 weeks, then back in the fridge for as long as possible until drinking. I find this with this method the yeast cake is reduced and the beers are very drinkable and clear as soon as they are carbonated.

That said I just got into kegging and this means a lot less waiting and no yeast cake in the bottle. I brewed a schwarzbier 18 days ago and it's fully carbed and totally crushable.

 

[Dabba]

So I decided on this recipe: http://castlerockhomebrew.com/portfolio-posts/munich-dunkel/

I got the munich malt in LME form and the rest of the grains crushed. So I'm going to steep them all together at 160F for 30 mins before adding the LME.

I also got the 34/70 Yeast as advised.

I plan to immerse the fermenter in a water bath, and for the first week I'll rotate 3 1 gallon jugs of ice in the bath to keep the temps down. Tap water sits right at 56F so it should be okay. I'm also going to secondary ferment it in a carboy for another 3-4 weeks so I can free up my fermenter for another brew and clear up the beer a bit. Then I'll bottle condition it for another 2-3 weeks at room temp and throw them all in the fridge to lager for a month.

Sound like a good plan?

 

[Dabba]

So I decided on this recipe: http://castlerockhomebrew.com/portfolio-posts/munich-dunkel/

I got the munich malt in LME form and the rest of the grains crushed. So I'm going to steep them all together at 160F for 30 mins before adding the LME.

I also got the 34/70 Yeast as advised.

I plan to immerse the fermenter in a water bath, and for the first week I'll rotate 3 1 gallon jugs of ice in the bath to keep the temps down. Tap water sits right at 56F so it should be okay. I'm also going to secondary ferment it in a carboy for another 3-4 weeks so I can free up my fermenter for another brew and clear up the beer a bit. Then I'll bottle condition it for another 2-3 weeks at room temp and throw them all in the fridge to lager for a month.

Sound like a good plan?

Any advice on this?

 

[GilSwillBasementBrews]

That should work fine. Just take care that when transferring to secondary to use a container as close to batch size as possible to minimize extra headspace which can lead to oxidization.
Also,
If your temps are still high even with water bath you can wrap the fermenter with a towel or t-shirt to wick water from the bath and putting a fan on it to aid in keeping cooler (swamp cooler)

 

[Dabba]

That should work fine. Just take care that when transferring to secondary to use a container as close to batch size as possible to minimize extra headspace which can lead to oxidization.
Also,
If your temps are still high even with water bath you can wrap the fermenter with a towel or t-shirt to wick water from the bath and putting a fan on it to aid in keeping cooler (swamp cooler)

Whelp I just bought a 5 gallon for secondaries. Now I can cook 2-3 batches at once!

 

[Sadu]

Whelp I just bought a 5 gallon for secondaries. Now I can cook 2-3 batches at once!

Definitely the way to go.