Newbie Question

[jamesyoung79]

Hello, I figured for my first brewing I give a batch of hard apple cider a shot. I do not have an apple press so I used a juicer that I have and filtered the sediment. I've followed the instructions, and read up quite a bit on it online. They yeast that came with the kit I purchased from Leeners.com was Pasteur Champagne Yeast (Red Star). Now when the bubbling died down and I was going to rack it , approximately 8 days later, the fermentation smells vinegary. I tested a sample of it against baking soda and sure enough it foams right up. I was under the impression that, sterilizing the equipment and the use of Camden would almost eliminate this risk, also that it takes MUCH longer for vinegar to be made. Any help suggestion?

 

[Yooper]

Vinegar is caused by acetero bacter infection. Could some fruit flies have gotten through the airlock into your primary?

How sour is it- is it "tart" or actually vinegar tasting? Sometimes young ciders have a real sour taste.

 

[jamesyoung79]

Vinegar is caused by acetero bacter infection. Could some fruit flies have gotten through the airlock into your primary?

How sour is it- is it "tart" or actually vinegar tasting? Sometimes young ciders have a real sour taste.

I reluctantly tasted some of it. I've been kinda upset at its smell. At first is has a slightly sour/tart taste but over all its very mellow. The after taste has a bitter edge to it. I'm not one for vinegar at all so I'm not the best to tell you if it actually taste like vinegar or not. I'm going to go ahead and rack it and pretend everything is normal with it. I guess I'll find out in the end. If anyone has any tips or suggestions, I'm more than willing to hear them.

 

[Crisco87]

That's an interesting test against baking soda. I would conclude that the test would show it does contain vinegar but hey, I am only in the process of doing my first batch. Kudos on ingenuity for the test though. I never would have thought of something like that.

 

[jamesyoung79]

That's an interesting test against baking soda. I would conclude that the test would show it does contain vinegar but hey, I am only in the process of doing my first batch. Kudos on ingenuity for the test though. I never would have thought of something like that.

The test actually shows an acid presence stronger than what is in apple cider. Apple cider does nothing more than dissolve baking soda. Alcohol is a base, vinegar on the other hand is an acid. Baking soda combings with acids to neutralize them producing CO2 and water. Besides that if you remember back to elementary school when you made the little model volcano you added vinegar(with red food coloring) to the baking soda to make the "lava" flow.

Also if the batch is a flop, I will trying adding a pound or so of baking soda to it and siphoning the batch off once it settles. It may be a bit watered down and slightly salty at worst after that, but better than having a high vinegar content.

 

[lapaglia]

If you have an infection that is causing the vinegar then its just going to keep making more until it is all vinegar, yes?

Isn't vinegar caused by a bacteria.

 

[effigyoffaith]

yes vinegar is caused by the bacteria that metabolize ethanol to acetic acid(vinegar). These bacteria are obligate aerobics so even if they are in your cider completely excluding oxygen will prevent their growth and the continued production of acetic acid. I'd add some more campden, and make sure the air lock is fitted tightly.

 

[jamesyoung79]

yes vinegar is caused by the bacteria that metabolize ethanol to acetic acid(vinegar). These bacteria are obligate aerobics so even if they are in your cider completely excluding oxygen will prevent their growth and the continued production of acetic acid. I'd add some more campden, and make sure the air lock is fitted tightly.

I put some more campden in, how much would you suggest for 5 gallons? As far as cutting off the oxygen how would I go about doing that other than the water lock on top of the carboy?

 

[gratus fermentatio]

I put some more campden in, how much would you suggest for 5 gallons? As far as cutting off the oxygen how would I go about doing that other than the water lock on top of the carboy?

The sulphur (S) in camden binds with the oxygen (O2) to form a new compound: sulphur dioxide (SO2). When bound, the O2 cannot act on your must to oxidize it, nor can anything attempting to live aerobically in the must do so, since it cannot metabolize the O2 in SO2. It is effectively oxygen starved & suffocated. One tablet per gallon is the usual dosage for initial must sanitation & protection at racking, Not sure if that dosage needs to be increased in this case or not. Check Keller's site for info, scroll down to "uncommon problems" Winemaking: Wine Problems Good luck, GF.
EDIT: You could also purge your carbouy(s) with carbon dioxide from a gas cylinder, or put a small chunk of dry ice in a plastic sports bottle & add some hot tap water (a cup or 2) and slip the end of some plastic tubing of the appropriate diameter over the spout & direct the flow of CO2 fog where you like. CO2 is heavier than air & will sink beneath it in the carbouy, blanketing the liquid surface & displacing the O2 if you fill the carbouy with CO2 fog. Any leftover dry ice makes for a cool/spooky drink when added to soda, kool-aide, fruit juice, etc... Regards, GF.

 

[Yooper]

First of all, you didn't prove you had vinegar- you proved that your cider is acidic. Yeah, it is. So is wine. The ph of chardonnay can be 3.4. That's very acidic, when you think about it.

Like was stated earlier, if it was vinegar, it would be undrinkable. It's probably just young, tart cider. You can add one campden tablet per gallon, top up so there is minimal head space, and fill the airlock. You could also take out a small sample, and add some sugar to it and taste it. If the sweetening improves it, then you know it is just tart young cider.

If it gets worse with time, then you know it's infected. There really isn't a shortcut to know.