Newbie freaking out over yeast!

[BamaRooster]

OK I am trying to use liquid yeast from white labs and I am starting to freak out because I see no activity. A bit of history first.

I am on my 3rd batch of beer, again this will be an extract brew from a kit, but this time I chose to go with liquid yeast. The kit is a Fat Tire Clone from Midwest and the yeast option was White Labs Belgian ale (WLP550). I posted here for advice on this batch and received tons of great tips to tweak my process. The instructions from Midwest strongly urge using a starter for the yeast stressing that it could have been damaged in shipping and a starter would prove the yeast was still viable. When the stuff came in I stuck it in the fridge, (that was last week) and yesterday thought, "let me check the expiration date" it was then I saw the date 10/22/2011. I thought crap man you gotta get this batch going so I prepared my starter. I did not have any DME but found some info on a LME starter and built it last night. 2 cups water boiled for 5 minutes with 2/3 cup LME. Sanitized everything up and cooled down the starter to 70 degrees and pitched in the liquid yeast. After 12 hours I see nothing. No bubbles no foam nothing but the yeast separated on the bottom. THe only thing I did notice was that when I agitated it this morning there seemed to be allot of foam generated for the small amount of agitation used.

So am I just a noob freaking out or is this yeast bad? I was planning on brewing Friday night so I still have 36 hours, is there a chance it will take longer to get started?

 

[mlg5039]

If you are getting foam when you swirl the starter, then co2 is being released which means that your yeast are alive. Keep it on the counter and give it a swirl everytime you walk by. You'll be ready to brew by tomorrow.

 

[two_hearted]

What is the shelf life of White Labs Yeast?

Quick Answer: 4 Months
Long Answer: Yeast is a living organism. As such, it needs to be in the right conditions to survive. Dry yeast can stay alive for one year, but yeast left in liquid form, even though it's a better product in terms of taste and performance, is more perishable. At White Labs, we are constantly working on our recipe to maximize the viability of the yeast in long term storage. The longer we can make the yeast last in the vial, the better shape it will be in for fermentation. After 30 days in the vial, the viability of our yeast is 75-85%, which is very high for liquid yeast. Yeast that is harvested after a brewery fermentation will typically have a viability of less then 50% after 30 days. Our high viability is due to the health of the yeast and nutrient content of our liquid at packaging. After 6 weeks, lag time before active fermentation is usually between 15-20 hours. The shelf life for White Labs Yeast is four months. Yeast used after this point is usually fine, but lag times will be longer. There will be living yeast in most vials for 6-12 months, so if a starter is made to activate the yeast, successful fermentations can be carried out with aged yeast.

Some info from White Labs about viability.

 

[JonM]

I usually do a quart of water and a quarter pound of DME for a starter. A pint starter is pretty small

Anyway, the foam is probably a good sign. It probably means that co2 is being produced by fermentation. If you took a gravity reading of the starter wort, you can check it again and see if fermentation is happening. Otherwise, carefully waft some of the starter's air toward your nose - smell like alcohol or give you a little co2 stinging in the nose? Then that's a good sign too.

 

[JonM]

Oh, and check the online Mr. Malty pitching rate calculator. You might need to step that starter up to 1 liter or 1.5 liters to make sure there's enough yeast. (I assume you're doing a 5-gal batch) I bet you have time for that before your Friday brewday.

 

[BamaRooster]

well I might be screwed, live and learn I guess. It appears based on the info I have gather I needed about 1.5 liters of starter and I have 1.5 pints. Thanks for the starter calc tip on Mr. Malty JonM, I was not aware of the this. I have left town and will not be back until tomorrow and have left my wife to agitate the starter in my absence but she is going to have no part of making up more starter and making a transfer. Will this still work for me, will it just take an eternity to ferment out? Should I add more starter liquid on friday and wait to brew until Saturday or Sunday? Crap now I am really freaking out, sorry guys!

 

[JonM]

Can you grab another fresh pack on your way back? If you add your small starter and a fresh pack, that might do it.

 

[Yooper]

well I might be screwed, live and learn I guess. It appears based on the info I have gather I needed about 1.5 liters of starter and I have 1.5 pints. Thanks for the starter calc tip on Mr. Malty JonM, I was not aware of the this. I have left town and will not be back until tomorrow and have left my wife to agitate the starter in my absence but she is going to have no part of making up more starter and making a transfer. Will this still work for me, will it just take an eternity to ferment out? Should I add more starter liquid on friday and wait to brew until Saturday or Sunday? Crap now I am really freaking out, sorry guys!

It'll be underpitching, but at least you already made a starter so the yeast would be active, and you have more yeast than you started with. If it was me, I'd go ahead and brew as planned and it will probably be ok.

 

[Revvy]

1) If 45 million year old yeast that was preserved in amber could be grown into a starter and beer made from it, really would you worry over a few months?

I've done yeast that was at least 3 years old, maybe more since it wasn't dated and it was fine. It took some babying to grow it to a useful size, but it did work.

I don't know if you know the story of Charlie Papazian's yeast (White Labs "Cry Havoc") or not. He talked about it on basic brewing. The recipes in both Papazian's books, The Complete Joy of Homebrewing and The Homebrewers Companion, were originally developed and brewed with this yeast. Papazian had "Cry Havoc" in his yeast stable since 1983.

He has used it nearly continuously since 83, sometimes pitching multiple batches on top of a cake, sometimes washing or not washing, etc. In a basic brewing podcast iirc last year he talked about how a batch of the yeast after a lot of uses picked up a wild mutation, and he noticed an off flavor in a couple batches.

Now most of us would prolly dump that yeast. Instead he washed it, slanted or jarred it (I can't recall which,)marked it, and cold stored it, and pretty much forgot about it for 10-15 years. He had plenty other slants of the yeast strain, so he left it alone.

Well evidently he came across that container of yeast, and for sh!ts and giggles made a beer with it. Evidently after all those years in storage, the wild or mutated yeast died out leaving behind a few viable cells of the "pure" culture, which he grew back into a pretty hardy strain...which iirc is the culture that White Labs actually used for their cry havoc...because of it's tenacity and survivability.

He's been using his yeast constantly for decades, in various strains.....

Yeast is hardier than you might think.

2) If you've made/are making a starter the age of the yeast is irrevelant- When you make a starter, and grow it, you're replicating more yeast to make up for any loss. You're making new, fresh yeast.

Bobby M did a test on year old stored yeast here; https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f13/testing-limits-yeast-viability-126707/

And my LHBS cells outdated tubes and packs of yeast dirt cheap 2-3 dollars each and I usually grab a couple tubes of belgian or other interesting yeast when I am there and shove it in my fridge. and I have never had a problem with one of those tubes.

I usually make a starter but I once pitched a year old tube of Belgian High Gravity yeast directly into a 2.5 gallon batch of a Belgian Dark Strong, and after about 4 days it took off beautifully.
The purpose of a starter is to reproduce any viable cells in a batch of yeast....that;s how we can grow a starter form the dregs in a bottle of beer incrementally...and that beer may be months old.

Even if you have a few still living cells, you can grow them....That's how we can harvest a huge starter (incrementally) from the dregs in a bottle of some commercial beers. You take those few living cells and grow them into more.

3) Did you have a band of yeast at the bottom? You rarely see krausen or get "activity" in a starter, usually all you get is yeast at the bottom of the vessel. Why would you pitch a starter if you didn't think the yeast was alive? The whole point of making a starter is to wake up the yeast and to grow more...and THAT proves viability.

Activity in a starter really only means one thing and one thing only.

It doesn't matter one blip in your fermenter or your starter flask if the airlock bubbles or not (if you are using an airlock and not tinfoil if you are using tinfoil, you aren't getting bibbling anyway,) or if you see a krauzen. In fact starter fermentation are some of the fastest or slowest but most importantly, the most boring fermentations out there. Usually it's done withing a few hours of yeast pitch...usually overnight when we are sleeping, and the starter looks like nothing ever happened...except for the little band at the bottom. Or it can take awhile...but either way there's often no "activity" whatsoever....

I usually run my stirplate for the first 24 hours, then shut it down, if you are spinning your starter it is really hard to get a krausen to form anyway, since it's all spinning, and there's often a head of foam on it from the movement.


All that really matters is that creamy band o yeast at the bottom.

This is a chilled sample so it's flocculated, but even with an unchilled sample you should see a band of yeast at the bottom. Here's an unchilled version

Same thing, a band.

As it is I've only ever seen two or three krausens actually on my starter (one blew off a bunch of krausen and knocked the tinfoil off the flask,) and the evidence of one on the flask at the "waterline" once. But I've never not had a starter take off.

Look for the yeast at the bottom, don't worry what it looks like on top.

If you have yeast on the bottom....that's all you really need.

4) You ARE just a newbie freaking out.


If you're brewing in 36 hours, just keep feeding your starter. It will be fine.

 

[arch1tect]

Did you let the yeast warm up first? If you pitched it directly from the fridge you may have shocked them so there will be a lag before they get super active.

 

[BamaRooster]

@ arch1tect - yep let it warm up for almost 4 full hours at room temp

@ Revvy - ok now I am feeling better, my starter looks exactly like t your pic of the glass, well except that mine is in a mason jar and has tin foil over the top , so ok, it looks nothing like the pic, but the stuff inside does. The wife reported in this morning that when she shook it up the gas release blew the top off. So it looks like my yeasties are ready to do some good work tonight. I hope they are up to the task!!

 

[arch1tect]

Good luck dude. Also, Try to pick up some packets of S05 just incase of situations like this.

 

[JonM]

Good luck dude. Also, Try to pick up some packets of S05 just incase of situations like this.

This! At $1 or less and a long shelf life, having a couple packs of S-05 in the fridge gives great peace of mind.

 

[HomebrewMTB]

This! At $1 or less and a long shelf life, having a couple packs of S-05 in the fridge gives great peace of mind.

Where are you buying US-05 for $1?

 

[KevinW]

And my LHBS cells outdated tubes and packs of yeast dirt cheap 2-3 dollars each and I usually grab a couple tubes of belgian or other interesting yeast when I am there and shove it in my fridge. and I have never had a problem with one of those tubes.

This is what I do! In fact I usually ask if they have any expired yeast(I am a cheapskate by nature and will always try to save a buck). I have never had issues with making starters from expired yeast either.

Any starter is really better than no starter so you should be fine.

Your beer will be fine!!

 

[Revvy]

Kevin, one of the vendors on here (can't recall who) just started do it online, and on here, it's probably going to be a regular thing, but I think even he was selling it for like 2 bucks a pop.

It's a recent thread I think called 6 months old yeast....it's been a pretty active thread even postings today.

 

[Revvy]

Found the thread, it's Apex brew ware's-6 month old wyeast thread..

 

[KevinW]

Found the thread, it's Apex brew ware's-6 month old wyeast thread..

Sweet, they still have a few varieties left for the discounted price and I just got paid that is a great coincidence! Now I just have to sell the SWMBO on the idea

Thanks Revvy

 

[BamaRooster]

all the yeast seemed happy so I pitched it into a batch of fat tire clone and we shall see how it goes......right now I am rdwhahb. My first batch, a brown ale is only 4 weeks old. I had a bottle that I fridged 2 days ago. To my surprise, it didn't suck!!!

Thanks to everyone for your support.

 

[BamaRooster]

Everything worked out fine. I had airlock activity within 2 hours and that has continued until this morning. It has slowed down to a bubble to a bubble every 10 seconds or so at 6:00am this morning. I shall let it go about 18 more days and then to the bottle it goes. I will be making starter from now on....Thanks guys!!!

 

[JonM]

Great to hear! Oddly enough, I had my own freak-out this weekend. Made up a starter of 1056 48 hrs before brewing and it just didnt look right all weekend. I went to check it during the boil and it was sweet and the gravity was still at 1.040. Dead starter and the LHBS closed an hour earlier.

So I rehydrated one of my emergency packs of US-05 and pitched that instead. Bubbling away nicely this morning.

So those extra emergency packs of 05 are a lifesaver in situations like this. Cheers!

 

[unionrdr]

We had our own little freak out session last Thursday evening. We were sitting at the computer watching videos & having a beer. We had a blow off on her Summer ale clone since pitching the day before.
We were in the middle of a drink,& a sudden,loud POP! Like God just cracked another one kinda sound. The lid on her ale pale had popped off 3/4ths of the way around. I being a gentleman (read sucker!) cleaned it up & re-sealed it. So,I get up early the next morning,just in time to see the blow off tube clinging to the airlock grommet by about 1/8"! More cleaning & push the tube back down.
Ok,having related that lil story,I can't imagine why one little 7g ale yeast packet re-hydrated made such a hell spawned fuss? It was OG 1,042,& my Burton ale was OG 1.065 with 4-7g ale yeast packets re-hydrated. The Burton ale blew off gas like a beer soaked chilli head drunk in the bath tub. Not as much krausen blow off,no physical antics at all. Last Sunday was 2 weeks in,1st FG of 1.020. Her Summer ale is still giving off a couple light bubbles every now & then. It's been wild,as we've gone through 3 blow off jugs the last 2 weeks...

 

[BamaRooster]

Sounds like there was allot of freak'n out this weekend. I know I am gonna get a few packs of the o5 yeast for my next freak out emergency!

 

[Revvy]

I wish I could inject massive doses of rdwhahb into all your brains so you wouldn't have freakout moments. I hope that by providing you all with detailed info, you'd see how most of the time you are all stressing out for absolutely nothing...Or are going by wrong "cues" and looking for signs (like airlock bubbling/krausen, etc) that sometimes just aren't there.

The yeasts are our friends, and they're stronger and more resilient than we often give them credit for.

If 45 million year old yeast that was preserved in amber could be grown into a starter and beer made from it, really why would you think your yeast would be any different?

The yeast wants to work for us, it wants to F*&k and eat sugar and fart co2 and pee alcohol, it's the entire purpose for living. That's in it's dna.....

You guys just gotta breath and learn to trust.

 

[unionrdr]

Well,it was more of a sudden surprise than anything. Just blew my mind that her lower gravity ale went crazy,& my bigger one performed pretty much as expected. Go figure...

 

[JonM]

Same here - mine was less of a freakout and more of a "Crap. Oh well, time for Plan B."

 

[Lewybrewy]

Remember, yeast is tough sucker. I transferred a 5 gallon batch of lager I brewed with White Labs East Coast into the secondary and had tons of trub. I decided to dump the remainder of the dregs into two sanitized mason jars and threw them in the fridge. 7 months later, I forgotten about the jars and decided to do an experiment. I made a mix of 2 pints of water, to 1/2 cup of priming sugar, put the gross mess in a 2 liter bottle and let it just sit on the counter. (Not really scientific, just messing around) Everyday I watched, swirled, waited, swirled, etc. for a week, no dice....or so I thought. I was brewing an ale so bought a vile of East coast, but I already had my "starter" experiment. I've never made a starter, just pitched the vile straight in and always had great success. Anyway, left the vile in the fridge, swirled the 2-liter until the stuff on the bottom mixed and pitched it. Next morning, to my surprise, "WE"VE GOT FERMENTATION!" I was very surprised, it tooks it's normal course and turned out good. I didn't try to keep the strain alive but, I'm doing a batch of autumn nutt brown that i Used London Ale yeast for and I'm gonna try and keep it going as long as I can. It seem if you can do that, you'll get a pretty badda$$ yeast going! Here's to my yeast lasting for at least three batches! Plus, it shouls save me some $$$$$! I grow my own hops, use my own water, why not save a few $ and grow my own yeast!!
Good Luck!

"Brew the beer you drink!"

Primary Washington Apple Hard Cider (White Labs Cider Yeast)
Secondary Autumn Nutt Brown (All-grain)
Keg IPA (All-grain); Scout's Pout (Named from my Goldendoodle Scout) A Porter/Stout Hybrid!