New Replacement for March Pump

[Catt22]

Walter,

The following was taken from the first page of the manual for the LG 3-MD-MT-HC which you can find here: http://www.franklin-electric.com/ir...iant-mag-drive/highly-corrosive-handling.aspx

"Your Little Giant pump is delivered to you completely pre-assembled
and pretested from the factory. It is ready for immediate
use. The pump may be installed in any position. It may be
mounted vertically with the pump head down. Proper plumbing
connections should be made, see specification table to determine
what size intake and discharge your pump has. Use a thread
sealer on all pipe connections and hand tighten only. Note: On HC
models a roll of Teflon® pipe seal tape is supplied. Do not use a
wrench to tighten the HC model connections, excessive force may
damage the plastic part. Make sure the wing nuts are tight before
operating the pump. Motor nameplates list all electrical data. Make
sure the pump is connected to proper voltage before operating.
When wiring pumps with no plug, the green (or green/yellow) wire
is the ground. The other two wires are line (live). Do not allow
the SC models to run dry (without fluid). However, because the
HC models utilize a carbon bushing in the impeller they maybe
allowed to run dry for periods up to eight hours at a time. These
pumps are not submersible, operate the pumps only in the in-line
mode. Do not put the units in liquid. Pump should be installed in
a dry area and protected from splash. These pumps are not self
priming models, they must be installed so that the pump head
(volute) is flooded at the time the pump is to be started. That is,
the inlet of the pump must be below the level of the surface of the
liquid being pumped.

With all due respect, I also think that what you said about air getting trapped in the pump head is B.S. Liquid passing through the pump head and the pressure differentials created by the impeller would rid the pump head of any air almost immediately if the pump head was properly flooded (primed) initially. Perhaps your comments are applicable to the March pumps only and if so, that would only serve to further convince me that the LG is a better way to go.

Here's what the manual says about the carbon bushings:

"The HC models utilize a carbon bushing between the impeller and
spindle. The use of this carbon bushing will allow these pumps
(HC series) to run dry (without fluid) for up to eight hours at a
time. Do not allow the SC models to run dry. They do not have the
carbon bushing and heat build up caused by friction will damage
the parts when SC models are run dry."

 

[WalterAtMarchPump]

Walter...does march have an equivelent to the LG 3md-hc pump? Its similar to the MDX you linked but it is center inlet and 1/12HP. http://www.plumbersurplus.com/Prod/...ive-Pump-6-power-cord-(581603)/57432/Cat/1006

I need to get another pump and love my LG, but if March has something similar for around the same price I might have to jump ship for the made in the USA. Thanks.

That would be our series 3 pump. The cheapest version would be our Polypro model the AC-3CP-MD AC-3 Pump
Nice thing is we have replacement parts for this unit in the same Polysulfone plastic as the 809's are made from, so you could get it to withstand 250* temps. Or just order it with the polysulfone. It would add about $62 (list price) to the price of the pump. So going through that place i listed above you would still be under $200 for the pump if you payed list for the replacement parts! Incase anyone wanted to do something like that here are the part numbers for the parts you would as for:

0130-0018-1000 AC-3CP-MD pump 115v (list price $188)
0130-0133-1000 #3 Polysulfone Impeller (list Price $22)
0130-0134-1000 #3 Cover 3/4" FPT inlet (list price $20)
0130-0153-1000 #3 Rear housing 1/2" MPT outlet (list price $20)


And if anyone wanted a barb fitting inlet/outlet instead of FPT/MPT threads on the pump then order this:
0130-0135-1000 #3 Rear housing 3/4" OD outlet (list price $20)
0130-0155-1000 #3 Cover 3/4" OD inlet (list price $20)


-Walter

 

[WalterAtMarchPump]

Walter,

The following was taken from the first page of the manual for the LG 3-MD-MT-HC which you can find here: http://www.franklin-electric.com/ir...iant-mag-drive/highly-corrosive-handling.aspx

"Your Little Giant pump is delivered to you completely pre-assembled
and pretested from the factory. It is ready for immediate
use. The pump may be installed in any position. It may be
mounted vertically with the pump head down. Proper plumbing
connections should be made, see specification table to determine
what size intake and discharge your pump has. Use a thread
sealer on all pipe connections and hand tighten only. Note: On HC
models a roll of Teflon® pipe seal tape is supplied. Do not use a
wrench to tighten the HC model connections, excessive force may
damage the plastic part. Make sure the wing nuts are tight before
operating the pump. Motor nameplates list all electrical data. Make
sure the pump is connected to proper voltage before operating.
When wiring pumps with no plug, the green (or green/yellow) wire
is the ground. The other two wires are line (live). Do not allow
the SC models to run dry (without fluid). However, because the
HC models utilize a carbon bushing in the impeller they maybe
allowed to run dry for periods up to eight hours at a time. These
pumps are not submersible, operate the pumps only in the in-line
mode. Do not put the units in liquid. Pump should be installed in
a dry area and protected from splash. These pumps are not self
priming models, they must be installed so that the pump head
(volute) is flooded at the time the pump is to be started. That is,
the inlet of the pump must be below the level of the surface of the
liquid being pumped.

With all due respect, I also think that what you said about air getting trapped in the pump head is B.S. Liquid passing through the pump head and the pressure differentials created by the impeller would rid the pump head of any air almost immediately if the pump head was properly flooded (primed) initially. Perhaps your comments are applicable to the March pumps only and if so, that would only serve to further convince me that the LG is a better way to go.

Here's what the manual says about the carbon bushings:

"The HC models utilize a carbon bushing between the impeller and
spindle. The use of this carbon bushing will allow these pumps
(HC series) to run dry (without fluid) for up to eight hours at a
time. Do not allow the SC models to run dry. They do not have the
carbon bushing and heat build up caused by friction will damage
the parts when SC models are run dry."

I don't know the construction of the LG-3. They may be utilizing their "floating impeller on a ball bearing" design on that one like their smaller pumps, and in that case then mounting the pump vertically with pump head on bottom would not pose a problem for it. But I can tell you the LG-5 and bigger pumps (which are a direct copy of ours) is made the exact same way as ours are....and if you mount it vertically with pump head below motor....then its only a matter of time before damage WILL occur.

As for the carbon bushings, give LG a call (if you can get through to anyone) and ask if they are ok to use in food applications. I bet they are not....unless they changed something out and have gone to a thermoplastic impregnated design...
We offer carbon bushings on almost all of our pumps as well but don't recommend it for food applications due to the fact carbon wears as its used and give off particulates. If you want to ingest carbon/graphite then I cant stop you from doing so.

-Walter

 

[Catt22]

I filter all of my brewing water through a carbon filter. Just more B.S. IMO. You can very easily check out the internals of the LG pumps on that same web site. The exploded view shows the details clearly. There are no "ball bearings" used on the impeller. No need to guess what they use, just read the manual.

This is from the manual for the larger LG-5 pumps. It makes the same statement regarding the pump positioning:

"INSTALLATION
Your Little Giant pump is delivered to you completely pre-assembled
and pretested from the factory. It is ready for immediate use. The
pump may be installed in any position. It may be mounted
vertically with the pump head down."

The construction seems to be the same as for the 3-MD-MT-HC:
http://www.franklin-electric.com/media/documents/993235.pdf

I would focus on battling the Chugger pump competition. They are your real threat, not LG.

 

[WalterAtMarchPump]

Just for my own curiosity I went and called LG myself. 10min, 2 phone calls and 3 transfers later, the person I talked to told me that none of their pumps are approved for potable water use. And he "didn't think" that the carbon bushing would be an issue. He couldn't give me an actual answer cause he didn't know! He was basing it on the fact that people use them for food applications.

Now just to be fair....none of our pumps have "approval" as far as FDA or NSF for food use either. And that ONLY because if you were to get a rating for the pump it would need to be nailed down for a specific application. So if we wanted to have it approved for pumping let say beer, The next guy that buys it and pumps milk through would void the rating. BUT, all of the materials we use (other then the carbon bushings) is approved for potable water use as a stand alone material. We have had numerous clients go through the certification process with NSF and FDA and not one has ever had an issue with our pumps due to materials in contact with the liquids.

-Walter

 

[Catt22]

Yes, let's be fair for sure. I think you may have talked to the wrong person at LG. AFAIK, these pumps were specifically designed for use in domestic hot water circulation systems. ie. potable water use. I also looked into this a long time ago and there was every indication that there would be absolutely no problem using this pump for brewing purposes. So far, it's panned out that way and I've been using the pump for going on six years without any problems at all. Perhaps I will get cancer or something down the road, but somehow I doubt it will be due to using the LG pump.

 

[WalterAtMarchPump]

I filter all of my brewing water through a carbon filter. Just more B.S. IMO. You can very easily check out the internals of the LG pumps on that same web site. The exploded view shows the details clearly. There are no "ball bearings" used on the impeller. No need to guess what they use, just read the manual.

This is from the manual for the larger LG-5 pumps. It makes the same statement regarding the pump positioning:

"INSTALLATION
Your Little Giant pump is delivered to you completely pre-assembled
and pretested from the factory. It is ready for immediate use. The
pump may be installed in any position. It may be mounted
vertically with the pump head down."

The construction seems to be the same as for the 3-MD-MT-HC:
http://www.franklin-electric.com/media/documents/993235.pdf

I would focus on battling the Chugger pump competition. They are your real threat, not LG.

Well it looks like they must have found the "magic formula" then! A carbon bushing on a ceramic shaft will generate heat. Ceramic is a nice retainer of heat. Run it long enough and that ceramic shaft will melt a hole right through the rear housing. We get 2-3 of those types of failures weekly. I highly doubt their pump can run for 8hrs bone dry. And when it does fail how do you proove that it was run less then 8hrs? They will only deny the warranty claim based on the damage they see. Your word against theirs.

-Walter

 

[klyph]

Everybody is basing their arguments on the owners manual/user's guide which is the first thing that ought to hit the trash for 99% of products out there. They're either a disclaimer for the manufacturer to CYA, or poorly translated, contrived BS.

 

[Catt22]

Everybody is basing their arguments on the owners manual/user's guide which is the first thing that ought to hit the trash for 99% of products out there. They're either a disclaimer for the manufacturer to CYA, or poorly translated, contrived BS.

Now there's some genuinely stupid advice for ya IMO!

 

[WalterAtMarchPump]

Yes, let's be fair for sure. I think you may have talked to the wrong person at LG. AFAIK, these pumps were specifically designed for use in domestic hot water circulation systems. ie. potable water use. I also looked into this a long time ago and there was every indication that there would be absolutely no problem using this pump for brewing purposes. So far, it's panned out that way and I've been using the pump for going on six years without any problems at all. Perhaps I will get cancer or something down the road, but somehow I doubt it will be due to using the LG pump.

Water from the hot water heater side is not considered 'potable'. It should not be used for cooking or drinking. The reason is this. The danger zone for most bacteria is 40 degrees F to 140 degrees F. There are several harmful bacteria that can live in your water heater, including legionella, if the temperature is maintained below 140 degrees F. Hot water is also good at dissolving things....so you will also get trace minerals of copper, zinc, iron depending on how old your pipes are etc. So a pump made for use in domestic hot water circulation systems isn't necessarily ideal just because it can handle the temps.

-Walter

 

[klyph]

Now there's some genuinely stupid advice for ya IMO!

My point being that the specifications and limitation of the product are often listed in such a manner as to absolve the manufacturer of liability, not necessarily how the product is capable of performing and under what circumstance. Those little pamphlets are written by the lawyers not the engineers.

 

[truckmann]

I think the pumps from either company are going to get done what we need without issue. I do like that Walter is on here to try and address concerns and help us out with questions. I guess I'm not to concerned with any health risks from the materials in the LG pumps and I really wanted something with the carbon bushings for the stupid factor in me in case I accidentally run it dry. Both companies seem to have that option as well if you look into it.

All that being said I just ended up buying an LG pump because I think I just got steal of a deal on ebay for way bigger of a pump than I really need! I got a brand new LG TE-4-MD-HC for ~$153.00 after shipping.

 

[Hermit]

I filter all of my brewing water through a carbon filter. Just more B.S. IMO.

I was curious if they could make a bearing out of pure carbon. I had my doubts. I didn't find anything specific but it seems carbon bearings are impregnated with all sorts of different unnamed materials depending on the application.


Materials
Carbon/graphite grades selected should be compatible both with the fluids being handled and the operating parameters. The typical materials used are from our Groups A, C, E, and F grades. Group C and Group F grades are used in general purpose applications. Group A grades are resin-impregnated for chemical applications. Group E grades are metal-impregnated for improved heat dissipation, wear and strength characteristics. Depending on the application, various types of metal-impregnated carbon/graphite can be used. For higher operating temperatures, Group B grades with an an oxidation inhibitor are used.


Even lead can be used: The loading capacity may be con-
siderably improved by lead impregnations.


The truth is you have no idea if these bearings/bushings are 100% carbon. I'm not a materials engineer, but I have serious doubts that they are.

 

[truckmann]

Doesn't seem like you comparing apples to apples here since I believe in this case we are dealing with carbon seals here and not bearings?

 

[Hermit]

Here's what the manual says about the carbon bushings:

"The HC models utilize a carbon bushing between the impeller and
spindle. The use of this carbon bushing will allow these pumps
(HC series) to run dry (without fluid) for up to eight hours at a
time. Do not allow the SC models to run dry. They do not have the
carbon bushing and heat build up caused by friction will damage
the parts when SC models are run dry."

Doesn't seem like you comparing apples to apples here since I believe in this case we are dealing with carbon seals here and not bearings?

How ya like dem apples?

Sorry, had to use that one since you gave it up so easy. Just joking with you.

 

[WalterAtMarchPump]

Doesn't seem like you comparing apples to apples here since I believe in this case we are dealing with carbon seals here and not bearings?

Not seals, bushings. The impellers have a bushing in the center of them that rides on the shaft. The Carbon/graphite bushings give the longest dry run time you can get. The Viton or Buna-N is the "seal" on both pumps...we also offer Teflon if the chemical attacks the first two options.

-Walter

And just for the record I'm not trying to scare anyone with the info on the "potable" water issue Catt22 and I were chatting about...just trying to inform.

 

[truckmann]

Ok I guess I was misunderstanding the application of the carbon on these. I'm still now worried about it though.

 

[Hermit]

Ok I guess I was misunderstanding the application of the carbon on these. I'm still now worried about it though.

I was probably more worried about having looked up all the wrong stuff and posting a replay based off of it.

 

[Catt22]

Water from the hot water heater side is not considered 'potable'. It should not be used for cooking or drinking. The reason is this. The danger zone for most bacteria is 40 degrees F to 140 degrees F. There are several harmful bacteria that can live in your water heater, including legionella, if the temperature is maintained below 140 degrees F. Hot water is also good at dissolving things....so you will also get trace minerals of copper, zinc, iron depending on how old your pipes are etc. So a pump made for use in domestic hot water circulation systems isn't necessarily ideal just because it can handle the temps.

-Walter

I can understand that, but I don't drink water out of the water heater and I don't know anyone that does so, but it is still domestic water and I would think that if it were that risky, no one would even be washing or bathing in the stuff. A toddler splashing in the tub will often ingest some of the water and I've heard no reports of any epidemics related to this sort of thing. No public health warnings either.

I continue to maintain that there is nothing to be concerned about when using your pumps, the LG pumps or, for that matter the Chugger pumps as well. I'd have to see some valid evidence to the contrary before I would believe it.

Regarding trying to claim a repair or replacement under the factory warranty due to running the pump dry, my warranty expired years ago. I don't even remember how long it was good for, but probably a one year duration which is common for that sort of equipment. I would never deliberately run my pump dry, but it's comforting to know that if it did run dry for a short time, it would not be damaged. I see no reason why a manufacturer would put that statement in the manual at all if they did not have complete confidence that no damage would occur. Perhaps it's only marketing gimmick, but it probably had to pass more than a few management and engineering reviews before they put that in the manual. Same for mounting the pump in any position. In any case, I think with reasonable care that any of these pumps should last a lifetime considering that they are designed to run 24/7 and we only operate them for relatively very short durations.

 

[Catt22]

My point being that the specifications and limitation of the product are often listed in such a manner as to absolve the manufacturer of liability, not necessarily how the product is capable of performing and under what circumstance. Those little pamphlets are written by the lawyers not the engineers.

Nonsense IMO, or B.S. if you prefer. I'm sure their legal department does review everything that they put out, but you can be sure that the engineers are the guys that actually wrote the manual.

 

[klyph]

I don't think you grasp the tone of my sentiment.

 

[Catt22]

I don't think you grasp the tone of my sentiment.

Probably not.

 

[WalterAtMarchPump]

Nonsense IMO, or B.S. if you prefer. I'm sure their legal department does review everything that they put out, but you can be sure that the engineers are the guys that actually wrote the manual.

That could be true.....it is in our case. But you also have to ask yourself...how much of the market is the company trying to get and at what cost? We can make any claim we want as to the "run dry" capabilities of the pumps. Its how we stand behind the claims that would set everyone apart. We do not warranty ANY run dry damage. And you sooner or later will get that one customer that is running a slurry through the pump and under normal conditions the pump works fine. But then one day Jonny fast hands shuts off the pumps intake and forgets to turn the pump off. Pump fries in 15min and they go for warranty cause it was under 8hrs. like the manual and their website claims.

My point to this is that both companies make the same product on the whole. What sets us apart IMHO is the quality of our product. The service we provide. And the support of our distributor network. Most of our distributors at one point have sold LG....they dont anymore. All of our plastic pump stuff is made right here in Glenview IL...can LG say the same for being made in the USA?? Or do they just "assemble" in the US? Our product ios made for Industrial use....made to be run 24/7 non stop. I have pump here in house in our test lab that has been running for 13yrs now without issue.

-Walter

 

[BK_BREWERY]

That would be our series 3 pump. The cheapest version would be our Polypro model the AC-3CP-MD AC-3 Pump
Nice thing is we have replacement parts for this unit in the same Polysulfone plastic as the 809's are made from, so you could get it to withstand 250* temps. Or just order it with the polysulfone. It would add about $62 (list price) to the price of the pump. So going through that place i listed above you would still be under $200 for the pump if you payed list for the replacement parts! Incase anyone wanted to do something like that here are the part numbers for the parts you would as for:

0130-0018-1000 AC-3CP-MD pump 115v (list price $188)
0130-0133-1000 #3 Polysulfone Impeller (list Price $22)
0130-0134-1000 #3 Cover 3/4" FPT inlet (list price $20)
0130-0153-1000 #3 Rear housing 1/2" MPT outlet (list price $20)


And if anyone wanted a barb fitting inlet/outlet instead of FPT/MPT threads on the pump then order this:
0130-0135-1000 #3 Rear housing 3/4" OD outlet (list price $20)
0130-0155-1000 #3 Cover 3/4" OD inlet (list price $20)


-Walter

So this pump you are describing being assembled above from march with the additional parts will match (roughly) the performance of the LG 3-MD-HC pumps, will be fully rated for above boiling temps, all food grade materials in wort contact, made in the U.S.A, for under $200? The only caveat really is it doesn't have the carbon bushings so it can not be run dry? so just to hammer it home this would be a pump rated for higher temps, with better materials, made in the USA for cheaper than the LG pump less run dry capability. lastly does the march motor have ball bearings? If so i think you just swayed me from the LG pump i don't NEED the run dry i just liked the characteristics vs cost of the lg pump vs the 809s.

 

[WalterAtMarchPump]

So this pump you are describing being assembled above from march with the additional parts will match (roughly) the performance of the LG 3-MD-HC pumps, will be fully rated for above boiling temps, all food grade materials in wort contact, made in the U.S.A, for under $200?

Yes

The only caveat really is it doesn't have the carbon bushings so it can not be run dry?

If you REALY want/need the carbon bushings we can supply the impeller with them. It is an option just not a standard item that comes on the pump right off the shelf.

Lastly does the march motor have ball bearings?

Yes, The standard off the shelf motor for the series 3 pump comes with Ball bearings.

-Walter

 

[WalterAtMarchPump]

If you had some time and wanted to go the least expensive way about it, then check eBay. The 3 series pumps are floating around there quite a bit since they are very popular with the marine AC crowd. The AC-3CP-MD have a 38" cord and the BC-3CP-MD has a 72" cord. Both have mounting bases and both come with the Polypro pump heads. The AC-3 has an exposed impeller magnet where the BC-3 has the magnet encapsulated. But if you were buying a used pump I would change out the pump head and go with the polysulfone option I listed above....you could probably get a complete unit together for under $100.
These motors are almost bulletproof. The vendor we buy from says they last 3-5 years of continuous duty operation. Although they only carry a 1yr warranty. We see them routinely lasting 10+ years in the marine environment. I have one here at March that's been running for 8yrs now....it would have been 15 had we not had a janitor come by and hit the pump next to it and break a fitting off spraying water all over the lab and emptying out 500gallons of water all over everything!

-Walter

 

[BK_BREWERY]

Yes




If you REALY want/need the carbon bushings we can supply the impeller with them. It is an option just not a standard item that comes on the pump right off the shelf.




Yes, The standard off the shelf motor for the series 3 pump comes with Ball bearings.

-Walter

Well that seals it for me, thats a no brainer for the debate between the LG 3-MD-HC and the March AC-3CP-MD with the polysulfone upgrades. Anyone waivering between those pumps, there is your answer in black and white. Also notice you're paying mostly for the motor, so say you aren't paying attention and accidentally run the pump dry. Another set of new parts to replace the wet end are still cheaper than an off the shelf LG pump. Now to find a distributor near me! you can still battle between the 809s and the chugger i'm out of that conversation....

 

[BK_BREWERY]

If you had some time and wanted to go the least expensive way about it, then check eBay. The 3 series pumps are floating around there quite a bit since they are very popular with the marine AC crowd. The AC-3CP-MD have a 38" cord and the BC-3CP-MD has a 72" cord. Both have mounting bases and both come with the Polypro pump heads. The AC-3 has an exposed impeller magnet where the BC-3 has the magnet encapsulated. But if you were buying a used pump I would change out the pump head and go with the polysulfone option I listed above....you could probably get a complete unit together for under $100.
These motors are almost bulletproof. The vendor we buy from says they last 3-5 years of continuous duty operation. Although they only carry a 1yr warranty. We see them routinely lasting 10+ years in the marine environment. I have one here at March that's been running for 8yrs now....it would have been 15 had we not had a janitor come by and hit the pump next to it and break a fitting off spraying water all over the lab and emptying out 500gallons of water all over everything!

-Walter

So if you buy a BC-3CP-MD and change out the impeller it basically becomes a AC-3CP-MD pump? they do have a bunch of these pumps on ebay and other sites might try and find some deals and just replace the wet end. Even so a brand new AC-3CP-MD is already on ebay for $120 shipped, not bad. new pumps!

 

[WalterAtMarchPump]

So if you buy a BC-3CP-MD and change out the impeller it basically becomes a AC-3CP-MD pump? they do have a bunch of these pumps on ebay and other sites might try and find some deals and just replace the wet end. Even so a brand new AC-3CP-MD is already on ebay for $120 shipped, not bad. new pumps!

Baisicly yes, If you were to buy both pumps at the same time, brand new, the only difference would be the AC-3 has a shorter cord and an impeller with exposed magnet. The BC-3 has a longer cord and an encapsulated impeller magnet. The BC-3 is geared a bit more to the industrial side with the encapsulated magnet being able to withstand a wider variety of chemicals that would normally attack and degrade the exposed magnet.

-Walter

 

[CoolHandLuke]

The one thing I can not find (or maybe I overlooked it) was whether the AC-3CP-MD pump motor is sealed? I know it's not submersible, but I was hoping to close the comparison between it with optional parts and the LG 3-MD-HC.

Thanks for your participation at HBT, Walter!

Based on the previous post, the BC-3 is a sealed magnet while the AC-3cp-MD is exposed? So apples to apples with the LG 3-MD-HC would be a BC-3CP-MD with the optional parts, correct?