New Method(s)

[yetijunk]

The last several batches I've made I've experimented with new methods I came up with.... The first turned out awesome with a wine that resembled a crisp grape beer! Delicious!!!!

The first method involves integrating aspects of primary fermentation into those of secondary. The first two days the batch was left uncovered for regular primary or 'aerobic' respiration. On the third and fourth day the airlock was added to the carboy, however twice a day the airlock was removed and the must was stirred for twenty seconds to add oxygen to the must allowing for the yeast to continue reproducing until the free oxygen is consumed but in turn keeping a high gravity and allowing more alcohol to be produced because the anaerobic stage of fermentation will continue with a lack of free oxygen. After the third and fourth day secondary fermentation was continued until the must had a gravity of 1.000

Recipe: (very simple)
---8 bottles of Welch's Black Cherry and Concord Grape(4 gal)
---4lbs golden brown brown sugar)
--- 1 packet d47 yeast
---1tsp tannins
---5tsp yeast nutrient




The second method is one which I am currently using on a new batch.....
This method involves two pounds of turbinado cane sugar (sugar in the raw) added to 3gallons of Welch's black cherry Concord grape. The change to normal methods is the sugar is never stirred into the must... Very simple but waiting to see how a lack of stirring in the sugars will change the taste. The down side to this method is there's no way to get an accurate starting gravity.


Recipe:
--6 bottles Welch's BC-CG
--two pounds turbinado came sugar
-- 1tsp tannins

Call it dumb to use Welch's grape juice, but if you tried the end product you'd say differently......





Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew

 

[Bobby_M]

I'm glad you listed the subject as a "MUST READ" so that I didn't miss it.

 

[yetijunk]

What do you think about it??


Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew

 

[TimmyWit]

I get it. "Must read" is a pretty clever pun. The subject line caught my attention and then I found myself reading about must. Nice one. You got me hook, line and sinker.

 

[bernardsmith]

Hi yetijunk, Not sure that your first idea is so innovative. I don't know any wine makers that don't ferment their must down to about 1.005 in an open bucket covered with a towel to keep out bugs and dirt. Beer makers tend to be more neurotic about infection of their wort and bang in a bung and airlock as soon as they pitch the yeast. Wine makers tend to be rather more relaxed (I have no idea if the anxiety that beer makers have is actually borne out by reality ) about the power of their inoculated yeast and their methods of sanitizing to prevent unwanted infections. We tend to add an airlock only after we have racked to a secondary fermenter - there is enough CO2 being produced by the yeast to blanket the wine during the first week or so to prevent any problems and certainly during the time when the yeast are reproducing they need oxygen if they are not to exhibit symptoms of stress.

Regarding your second approach , I am not sure that it would be so difficult to calculate the SG even if you don't measure it with an hydrometer although why you cannot measure the gravity minutes after you have stirred in the sugar is not obvious to me.
If you know the gravity of the grape juice and you know that a pound of your sugar will increase the gravity of a gallon by .040 and you know the volume of your must then you can calculate the gravity of your must after you added the sugar. Estimating gravity by calculation is probably as accurate and reliable as measuring the gravity with a hydrometer given the relative inaccuracy of the tool and the relative difficulty in obtaining an accurate reading

 

[yetijunk]

bernardsmith--

Haha believe me I know plenty about sanitation, and secondly your telling me how an approach doesn't work when you haven't tried it. If it works, why not? Wine making is about method, recipe and the final product. Can't always be 'relaxed'

There are many fermenting methods and mine are quite different then most, but I have had amazing results that I could never complain about

In all honesty these methods are to experiment and to have some fun.....
And have people critique it without a confrontational bias.


Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew

 

[jensmith]

Bernardsmith--

Haha believe me I know plenty about sanitation, and secondly your telling me how an approach doesn't work when you haven't tried it. If it works, why not? Wine making is about method, recipe and the final product. Can't always be 'relaxed'

There are many fermenting methods and mine are quite different then most, but I have had amazing results that I could never complain about

In all honesty these methods are to experiment and to have some fun.....
And have people critique it without a confrontational bias.


Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew

I agree with what bernardsmith said. I read nothing confortational in it. Nor how it would not work. Just a question and suggestion on taking the sg reading of must with undisolved sugers.
Yetijunk, not really sure how you interpited it so. Maybe you have been sampeling your brew....

I find nothing "new" in either method. No reason they can't be new to you, or not to try them.


Sent from my iPod touch using Home Brew

 

[Yooper]

There are many fermenting methods and mine are quite different then most,

Actually, your first 'method' is exactly the way all of the winemakers I know do it, too, except most of us don't use an airlock until the wine is 1.000-1.010. We just leave a towel over it, so it can be stirred often. You can airlock it, of course, as long as you stir it often. It's just easier to leave the lid and airlock off totally so that stirring is less cumbersome.

As to the second method, stirring/not stirring is meaningless because the activity of the yeast will mix it up during fermentation. It's just that most people dissolve it first so that they can get a good OG reading. It doesn't matter, though.

At first, I thought you were talking about adding the sugar after fermentation was going (incremental feeding), which is quite common and is used to push the ABV of wines up above where the usual alcohol tolerance would be.

 

[yetijunk]

No he's totally right regarding the sg measurements and the methods he discussed; I never knew about calculating it without a hydrometer. What I know about making wine is from first hand experience, bio, and off the web; I didn't know it was a preexisting method until now ha ha kinda figured someone had thought of it tho....
As for my interpretation of his reply, it does come out as confrontational as it is condescending while it is also informative.... Don't really care to argue about that.

My use of an airlock early on before a lower gravity as you discussed is because of what I know about cellular respiration. Perhaps it is a fallacy in wine making, and if so then that explains my 'misuse' of air locks so early into fermentation. During aerobic cell rez, cells(yeast cells) have access to free oxygen allowing them to oxidize ATP for reproduction; which to my understanding is the purpose of primary fermentation. What I don't get is why people claim the yeast is producing alcohol during primary with consideration to the fact that it is during anaerobic cellular respiration(secondary) that cells produce alcohol due to the lack of free oxygen(adding an airlock to limit available free oxygen)..... Not during primary. Without free oxygen, glucose is not fully oxidized and alcohol is produced. If primary fermentation truly is aerobic fermentation and the time the yeast is reproducing, then why would you wait until the gravity is 1.010 before adding an airlock if you want a high ABV?? The reason I add an airlock so early is the yeast has the greatest amount of sugar to consume and produce alcohol.




Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew

 

[Yooper]

My use of an airlock early on before a lower gravity as you discussed is because of what I know about cellular respiration. Perhaps it is a fallacy in wine making, and if so then that explains my 'misuse' of air locks so early into fermentation. During aerobic cell rez, cells(yeast cells) have access to free oxygen allowing them to oxidize ATP for reproduction; which to my understanding is the purpose of primary fermentation. What I don't get is why people claim the yeast is producing alcohol during primary with consideration to the fact that it is during anaerobic cellular respiration(secondary) that cells produce alcohol due to the lack of free oxygen(adding an airlock to limit available free oxygen)..... Not during primary. Without free oxygen, glucose is not fully oxidized and alcohol is produced. If primary fermentation truly is aerobic fermentation and the time the yeast is reproducing, then why would you wait until the gravity is 1.010 before adding an airlock if you want a high ABV?? The reason I add an airlock so early is the yeast has the greatest amount of sugar to consume and produce alcohol.




Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew

Yes, the biology is correct in that however, the anaerobic respiration happens even in the presence of oxygen. As you know, oxygen is taken up by the yeast during the reproductive phase, but the time period of reproduction and fermentation do overlap, and it's not a "first, then" type of reaction as often it is happening at the same time once fermentation starts and c02 is being produced.

The reason for an airlock isn't to "starve" the yeast of oxygen. It's just that once fermentation slows down, less c02 is being produced so that there is a greater chance of oxidizing the wine. It has nothing to do with the yeast's health or fermentation- large amounts of c02 are detrimental to yeast but it much of it does exit through the airlock- but the c02 has a protective effect on the wine itself and will not allow oxygen to bind with the wine, causing oxidation.

Once fermentation slows, and less c02 is produced, winemakers will airlock to keep that c02 protective effect on the wine to avoid oxidation as long as possible.

You can get a very high ABV wine either way, and you can also get one that goes over average attenuation limits by incremental feeding. That is, once fermentation is going well, keep adding sugar (and perhaps some yeast nutrient) to boost the ABV. Since the sugar is added gradually, it is less stressful to the yeast, and it's fairly easy to push the ABV up to 18-20%.

 

[yetijunk]

I appreciate the incite! Very smart! Thank you!