New Danstar Belle Saison Dry Yeast?

[40watt]

Different yeast produce different amounts of glucans responsible for perception of mouthfeel. This is not as well defined in ale yeast. Wine yeast is looked at more closely in this regard.
3711 is famous for a rich mouthfeel. One reason that it pairs so well with Brett, which produces none of those compounds.

 

[40watt]

Doing wild fermentations and sours will make one realize that traditional methods of achieving mouthfeel and avoiding a thin beer, are far from the only considerations.

 

[dobe12]

I haven't brewed with 3711 but I'd be surprised if the mouthfeel is directed by strain as much as by grain bill. This is a heavy attenuator, and saisons are usually very highly attenuated (that aspect of the style seems to be more strictly observed these days anyway), so mouthfeel is more about carbonation and dextrins.

My understanding is that belle saison attenuates more aggressively than 3711, though, so that may be a factor. If you make a very small beer with very low mash and too little carbonation with belle saison, you may find it's a little watery (carbonating properly helps a lot).

I've used both many times and both are very aggressive attenuators. I'd go as far to say that 3711 even a little more so, but both will attenuate down to 1.005 and below.

Although 3711 will really dry out a beer it does leave a very slick mouthfeel. Almost silky or oily. I've never tasted a beer NOT fermented with 3711 that had the same mouthfeel. It will leave a dry flavor (if there is such a thing), but not a dry mouthfeel. 3711 is one of a kind, IMO. Belle Saison is also a very good Saison yeast, but 3711 has a bit more character and definitely more slick mouthfeel, IMO. Love them both though.

EDIT: But don't take my word for it, take it from the source.
https://www.wyeastlab.com/rw_yeaststrain_detail.cfm?ID=199

 

[fearwig]

That sounds great, has me wanting to switch. I think several commercial saisons I've loved use 3711, so I've been curious, but I repitch so much I sometimes forget to try new strains.

I really like what belle saison does for big, dry saisons--20% sugar, 146F mash, 1.060+ beers. It takes those well under 1.000 for me even without breaking 70F (though you can if you want, for flavor), and they have a lot of character. I do like what it did with a 4% ABV session saison recently, but I'd like to see some of that slick mouthfeel that (now that I think about it) you find in some nice commercial saisons.

 

[dobe12]

That sounds great, has me wanting to switch. I think several commercial saisons I've loved use 3711, so I've been curious, but I repitch so much I sometimes forget to try new strains.

HA! I have the same "problem" if you can call it that. I've been repitching the same Belle Saison since last summer. Got a free pack at NHC. I really want to switch back to 3711, but when you got a huge cake of another great yeast, why waste it?

My most recent, still in primary, was on the higher side at 1.073. So I may just dump it. I did get 4-5 batches of beer and traded a few jars of yeast out of one free pack of yeast. I'd say it did it's job. Time to set it free

 

[Osedax]

Different yeast produce different amounts of glucans responsible for perception of mouthfeel. This is not as well defined in ale yeast. Wine yeast is looked at more closely in this regard.
3711 is famous for a rich mouthfeel. One reason that it pairs so well with Brett, which produces none of those compounds.

I think you might mean glycerol. Glucans are found in the malt. Wheat, rye, and buckwheat are all high in glucan. This is what attributes to a gummy mash.

Both glycerol and glucans will effect mouthfeel. 3711 may produce more glycerol than other saison yeast. Many other factors will effect mouthfeel other than FG. When a saison yeast does its job well, it will produce a good and not a thin mouthfeel.

 

[40watt]

I think you might mean glycerol. Glucans are found in the malt. Wheat, rye, and buckwheat are all high in glucan. This is what attributes to a gummy mash.

Both glycerol and glucans will effect mouthfeel. 3711 may produce more glycerol than other saison yeast. Many other factors will effect mouthfeel other than FG. When a saison yeast does its job well, it will produce a good and not a thin mouthfeel.

Yes. Thank you for the good catch!
Glucans are the reason we wheat, spelt, rye, or oats to our Brett beers. Cheers!

 

[fearwig]

Great info, both. FWIW I definitely use 10-15% wheat in my belle saison brews, maybe more if they're smaller. Explains why the mouthfeel is not totally lacking--and the head on this last one was gorgeous, like cloudtops, even if I kind of wished it felt richer.

 

[ChocolateMaltyBalls]

Does anyone feel that this yeast produces a mouthfeel anywhere close to that of 3711?

I find it to have a very similar mouthfeel to 3711 in that it is super attenuating but doesn't come off as watery. Considering how close to 1.000 it will go, I'm always surprised by that it still retains body. Not sure what unfermentables are left behind, but I've seen the same effect in a variety of grain bills.


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[40watt]

Thank you!

Have yet to taste the results, but I saw recently that Prairie Ales were giving Belle Saison a try. Thus far they have brewed mostly with 3711.

I am a huge fan of 3711, and would be pleased to have a dry alternative for occasions.

 

[piteko]

I would like to submit to you this thread correlated to belle saison yeast and high gravity.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f163/dry-out-high-gravity-beer-go-further-10-abv-476117/

Cheers from Italy!
Piteko

 

[fearwig]

I have only taken it to 1.070 and that with some 15% sucrose, but it did attenuate to I think 1.003. It finished in no time with low-60s fermentation, so I can at least say it didn't blink at ~8% ABV.

I think it will treat your RIS well and probably stop around 12%. It's a real workhorse but every yeast has its limits.

I also agree with another poster that your RIS will taste rather different carbed and cold, but I have a personal aversion to big over-sweet stouts (at least imbalanced ones, which are everywhere) that leaves me agreeing with your decision to bring it down at least to the 1.020s if you can. With that kind of ABV it's good to remember that even 1.020 is a lot sweeter than a 1.020 milk stout (not just from "alcohol sweetness" but from the alcohol skewing your hydrometer).

 

[piteko]

I think it will treat your RIS well and probably stop around 12%. It's a real workhorse but every yeast has its limits.

Well, CBC-1 (always from Danstar, as Belle Saison) should work until 15%, I wouldn't take for granted the 12% limit for Belle Saison...
That's why I posted my thread here too.

Cheers from Italy!
Piteko

 

[fearwig]

That would be a crazy potent saison (probably frightening to drink), but in an RIS the yeast character should be covered pretty well. Good to know, thanks!

 

[AndyMac81]

Just bottled a saison that used this and it turned out great. The flow or is slightly milder and cleaner than I expected but it produced the correct flavor profile and was a beast in the wort. I went from 1.065 to 1.003 in about 10 days. I would happily use this again as it's easier and cheaper than the liquid strains


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[GCPHomebrew]

I just brewed a saison with the danstar yeast. It is perfect. Textbook saison taste. I went for a 3.5-4%abv and 1lb honey to taste the yeast. Amazing. Also I didn't do anything with temp. I read this yeast doesn't need or care to raise the temp.


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[JBCSL]

Has anyone blended this with brett? Was planning on trying it in a couple weeks and wondered if anyone had any experience with it.

 

[Osedax]

Has anyone blended this with brett? Was planning on trying it in a couple weeks and wondered if anyone had any experience with it.

I would be very interested in this as well. It seems like it would go really well with some brett b or c.

I may do this the next time I use this yeast...

 

[JBCSL]

I'll be using Brett b, the only concern I had was the super fast and high attenuation people seem to be getting. Worried the slower brett might not have much left to eat.

 

[fearwig]

I haven't worked with brett yet but I think you could either up your mash temps (more brett-only fermentables) or pitch it first to give it a head start and solve that problem, assuming it is a problem.

 

[Osedax]

Both ways might work. Brett doesn't necessarily need sugar to produce funk. Trust me it will find enough dextrins left behind. It also "eats" esters and phenols that the yeast produce. Saisons produce a lot of byproduct. That is why funkin' up a saison is so popular.

 

[sweetcell]

low sugars isn't a problem. brett can eat a lot of things other than sugar. we don't really care about brett eating sugar, we want it to eat sacch's by-products (and this is why saison yeast + brett is such a popular combo - saison kicks out by-products that brett can turn into funk). a great read: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f127/understanding-brett-flavors-298943/

 

[JBCSL]

low sugars isn't a problem. brett can eat a lot of things other than sugar. we don't really care about brett eating sugar, we want it to eat sacch's by-products (and this is why saison yeast + brett is such a popular combo - saison kicks out by-products that brett can turn into funk). a great read: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f127/understanding-brett-flavors-298943/

Awesome read, thanks! Essentially answered all my questions and then some

 

[pwortiz]

Just made a random recipe today. Was making a Firestone walker double jack (screwed it up by adding the 30 min hops at 60....oi.) But I had enough run off to make a half batch of something. Wort was around 1.038, I added a 1/4cup of table sugar, did a 45 min boil with a half ounce of cascade. The last 15mins I put in one of those cans of raspberry purée. Smelled good. Final gravity was 1.042 at 78*.

My double jack ended up at 1.088 @ 80 so I pitched the entire starter which I had planned to use in both....happened to have 2 packets of the belle around so I used one. I am looking forward to seeing how this turns out. Most likely will stick around 76 for all of fermentation and I am curious how far down this will go with the fruit sugar. Maybe i'll know in a couple weeks!

 

[fearwig]

I hear a lot about people using this in IPAs. I've only done traditional saisons (or nearly traditional, anyway), 146-148 mash, no crystal. I might give it a try with some big hops, a little crystal, and a 152-154 mash, just to see what it can do with that.

 

[fearwig]

I brewed a 15 gal batch of American-hopped session saison (1.040) Saturday night, pitched about 450ml of belle saison slurry from April. Today (Tuesday) it's done at 1.002. The attenuation is as far as I expect it to go and the yeast cap dropped, though it's still pretty orange-juicy looking from yeast in suspension, so I'm going to let it rest overnight and then I'm going to start cold crashing with gelatin. It's been chugging at about 68F ambient in the basement, I just let the temperature go free this time. I broke up the cap on day 2, as I sometimes do--I'm sure that sped things along. Nice esters, some clove, some good malt presence shining through from the biscuit and honey malts. I'm thinking about carbing up a 20oz with my carbonator cap and having some right now, murky or not.

 

[threephase]

I brewed a 15 gal batch of American-hopped session saison (1.040) Saturday night, pitched about 450ml of belle saison slurry from April. Today (Tuesday) it's done at 1.002. The attenuation is as far as I expect it to go and the yeast cap dropped, though it's still pretty orange-juicy looking from yeast in suspension, so I'm going to let it rest overnight and then I'm going to start cold crashing with gelatin. It's been chugging at about 68F ambient in the basement, I just let the temperature go free this time. I broke up the cap on day 2, as I sometimes do--I'm sure that sped things along. Nice esters, some clove, some good malt presence shining through from the biscuit and honey malts. I'm thinking about carbing up a 20oz with my carbonator cap and having some right now, murky or not.

Put together a super quick beer (all extract 20 min boil, normally do AG) last Thursday. Pretty sure it was finished Sunday but didn't get around to taking a gravity measurement until yesterday OG 1.040 FG 1.002. This yeast is a beast. To be fair I properly hydrated and hit the wort with tons of oxygen. Going to cold crash and hit it with some gelatin. Hoping to have it carbed and ready to go by Friday. This is like my 5th time using this yeast and I have been impressed every time.

Just for info my fermentation schedule was:
Pitched at about 75. Let free rise to 85. Kept at 85 for 3 days after signs of fermentation.

 

[fearwig]

FWIW it took a full two-day cold crash to get that yeast fully out of suspension, the one bad thing I can say about it is that you really have to prod it to floc. It tastes fine with some residual yeast but if your IBUs are up there you may see some yeast bite until it drops out. I didn't bother with gelatin, it's mostly for me and my wife as table beer.

But man it does finish fast. I gave it a quart of leftover cider on Saturday and it finished up in a hurry, smells pretty nice already. I'm crashing that too.

 

[badlee]

I have found that it will drop VERY clear in the bottle and form clumps.

 

[tmendick]

I used this yeast on a Partial Mash with a Brewers Best kit and added a oak honeycomb for 2 weeks, it was fantastic.
I wrapped my carboy with a light blanket and left it in a 70 degree basement for 2 weeks and then in secondary with oak for 2 weeks, came out really clear with a cold crash and put on keg.
I'm thinking about making a Black Saision with this yeast some midnight wheat and adding the oak honeycomb again.