New BYO Aussi brewing article

[chefmike]

Is this what we are talking about as a cube: Search Results


Pol=

Maybe you need to change your sig to be similiar to SpillsMostOfIt from the aussie board:

"--------------------
No Mash Tun. No Chill.

No confirmed fatalities."

 

[remilard]

Sorry, thought I had linked to it. Here are two very interesting articles that should help you understand the topic:

International Handbook of Foodborne ... - Google Book Search

ScienceDirect Login

So you would get a 1000 fold reduction with a 75 minute boil. Is that good enough? Hard to say.

This sugar thing is interesting although I know people have gotten bulged cans of extract so something can grow in even very concentrated wort.

 

[Kaiser]

In Australian discussions I haven't seen any debate on botulism. We were more concerned about cold breaks, chill haze etc.

This is the more technical and beer quality side of the story that can easily be resolved by a sufficient number of good side-by-side experiments. I'm curious to see the outcome. I generally read that wort should be chilled as quick as possible but I haven't seen data that suggests that quicker chilling leads to more haze stable beers.

We just assumed that botulism was not an issue.

This is what we want to clear here as there might be a health risk. As you can see some suggest it shouldn't be a problem while others have information that suggest that there might be an issue here. I don't think 24hrs are enough but you mention that many brewers keep the unpitched wort for a long time.

You also mention the fresh wort kits. Do you have information on how they are produced? Is it possible that they involve a step in which the wort is heated to a temp sufficient to kill the spores of C.B.?

You have more chance of botulism as an kit & kilo brewer - add can goo, add sugar, add water, wait till cool then add yeast. Can't see anyone raising that possibility yet.

Again, the concern was raised because of the statement that the wort can be kept for days or weeks. I think the yeast is pitched in less than 24hrs in kit and kilo brewing.

Again, a little amazed that America hasn't got fresh wort kits - business opportunity ? Seems UK also in same boat, though an excuse offered is the number of pubs in UK so close to population base.

Could this be a shipping issue? The added water makes for more weight and higher shipping costs.

I hope you read the article I cut/pasted from AHB source - the author is a mate and this offers a simple but concise explanation of the process.

I did and it was the first comprehensive explanation I saw on this. I don't read BYO, so thanks for that.

There should be a similiar risk of botulism in canning wort extract - read tins of Coopers, as to the no chill of wort.

This goes back to the high sugar concentration.


If you are ok with keeping wort unpitched for days, then this may be a nice option for you guys: Drauflassen - German Brewing Techniques
It allows you to start with less yeast b/c you pitch only part of the wort. The rest is added once the initial volume is at low Kraeusen. It can also be added in stages (i.e. first pitch 1/4 then add 1/4 and than add 1/2).

Kai

 

[Picobrew]

What about the flavor and aroma of the beer? Does letting it stay hot for so long degrade the aromatic and flavor qualities of the hops? If you are adding hops at flameout, but staying above say 180 degrees for even 20 minutes, doesn't that defeat the purpose a bit? I worry about this even with my ice bath setup. Is this a non-issue?

 

[Fatgodzilla]

Fascinating thread... I have been reading a ton over on the aussie boards...
Corny Instead Of A No-chill Cube..... - AussieHomeBrewer.com

They discuss this technique with cubes, in brew kettles and the thread above, in cornies

!


Didn't want to raise that bit about no chilling in fermenters ! Good get chefmike and I expect to see you more often at AHB !

What about the flavor and aroma of the beer? Does letting it stay hot for so long degrade the aromatic and flavor qualities of the hops? If you are adding hops at flameout, but staying above say 180 degrees for even 20 minutes, doesn't that defeat the purpose a bit? I worry about this even with my ice bath setup. Is this a non-issue?

Certainly an issue, particularly when trying to use Beersmith or Promash. Forgetting completely about the safety of cubing, the next argument in the natural progression is the effect of hot wort and hop oil extraction. Based on what we discussed with a lot of anedotal evidence from the university of the shed but nothing from any authoritative source, I treat the cubed wort as the same as a 25 minute from end of boil addition. Why .. Because. It's as good a rule of thumb as any. I add my aroma hops at flameout then whirlpool and rest my wort for 15 minutes before cubing. I dry hop my beer after fermentation has finished. And for Beersmith treat this as a 25minute addition. The calculated IBUs means about right to my palatte.


I've done my bit with this topic so won't be back. Needless to say if you need to know a little more about brewing in Australia, join the AHB forum and see how the other half does it. The same as I like reading this HBT site for a different slant on life and visit a site in the UK. You can't have too many points of reference !

 

[Parker36]

I've done my bit with this topic so won't be back. Needless to say if you need to know a little more about brewing in Australia, join the AHB forum and see how the other half does it. The same as I like reading this HBT site for a different slant on life and visit a site in the UK. You can't have too many points of reference !

You have a link? My interest is piqued.

 

[chefmike]

Time to invade the south:

No Boil Hopping // Use Of A "cube" For Cooling - AussieHomeBrewer.com

 

[Picobrew]

Time to invade the south:

No Boil Hopping // Use Of A "cube" For Cooling - AussieHomeBrewer.com

Yes looks like they discuss the hop implications over there. Some people don't adjust for the extra hot time, others make light adjustments.

 

[Kaiser]

I treat the cubed wort as the same as a 25 minute from end of boil addition. Why .. Because. It's as good a rule of thumb as any

Good point. There are still unisomerized a-acids in the wort some of which will isomerize while the wort is still hot. It is known that the IBUs keep increasing during a whirlpool rest, so I would expect the same from being in the cube.

Kai

 

[chefmike]

And for more cubes:

5-Gallon Stackable Water Container

 

[KerryD]

This has probably already been asked, but when the time comes, why not just use the cube as the fermenter as well? Toss in the yeast, rig up an airlock and be done....

 

[The Pol]

This has probably already been asked, but when the time comes, why not just use the cube as the fermenter as well? Toss in the yeast, rig up an airlock and be done....

Yeah... I have been pondering this. You would need a blowoff, obviously, you have no headpsace. I have found some great HDPE 5 gallon carboys... but like I said, nearly every brew will be blowing off.

I am going to try this out... reading the Aussies brew boards strengthens my resolve to do so. I am in. Shortens my brew day, saves copious ammounts of water... why not?

 

[bakins]

I have found some great HDPE 5 gallon carboys...

Got a link?

I tried it in a bucket once, but I think it had too much airspace. It almost collapsed upon itself as well as the wort cooled.

 

[The Pol]

USplastics

go there, they have everything you can imagine. Wort shrinks about 4%... so hopfeully these true CUBE carboys will handle the shrinkage better than say a bucket.

 

[Revvy]

This has probably already been asked, but when the time comes, why not just use the cube as the fermenter as well? Toss in the yeast, rig up an airlock and be done....

Been discussed here...https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f51/kick-fermenter-104172/

 

[remilard]

This has probably already been asked, but when the time comes, why not just use the cube as the fermenter as well? Toss in the yeast, rig up an airlock and be done....

Other than the headspace issue and, assuming you don't desire to rack away from the trub, this is probably ideal.

Foam control drops would solve the head space problem.

 

[bakins]

USplastics

go there, they have everything you can imagine.

They have too much

How do these look?

Fort-Pak® - US Plastic Corporation

5 Gal UN Approved Plastic Carboys - US Plastic Corporation

Rectangular Fort-Pak® With Spigot - US Plastic Corporation

 

[Parker36]

Why I can't I get that AHB forum working? I registered and everything but the threads/posts aren't showing up

 

[Parker36]

So you would get a 1000 fold reduction with a 75 minute boil. Is that good enough? Hard to say.

This sugar thing is interesting although I know people have gotten bulged cans of extract so something can grow in even very concentrated wort.

No, the first one is saying the D(100) value is 25 for the spores (this is for the most heat resistant strain). This basically means when heating to 100C (boiling) that 90% of the spores are destroy in 25 minutes. After another 25 minutes, 90% of the remaining 10% are destroyed. If you have a boil that is 75min, you have killed off almost all of the spores (99.9%)

This high percentage of destruction is increased even further by the introduction of an acidic environment (see the second article for the relation between Dvalue, temperature and pH)

 

[The Pol]

I always boil 90 mins. I am going with a 6 gallon HDPE carboy for the no chill method.(I think) Why? Why not? I am not STORING my wort in it, I am cooling it for 24 hours, then pitching. I can then beat the heck out of it to aerate the wort, and use the SAME vessel to ferment in. The $$ outlay is almost nil... if it works, great, if not... well, it will make for good reading here.

I have had brews take 72 hours to start fermenting, so I dont see 12-24 hours of slow cooling as being much different. Maybe I am wrong?

 

[Parker36]

I always boil 90 mins. I am going with a 6 gallon HDPE carboy for the no chill method.(I think) Why? Why not? I am not STORING my wort in it, I am cooling it for 24 hours, then pitching. I can then beat the heck out of it to aerate the wort, and use the SAME vessel to ferment in. The $$ outlay is almost nil... if it works, great, if not... well, it will make for good reading here.

I have had brews take 72 hours to start fermenting, so I dont see 12-24 hours of slow cooling as being much different. Maybe I am wrong?

I'm sure you will be fine. I see no risk to your health (at least nothing above normal sanitation issues). Just do it, we are all interested to see how it turns out

 

[The Pol]

I'm sure you will be fine. I see no risk to your health (at least nothing above normal sanitation issues). Just do it, we are all interested to see how it turns out

If I were to STORE the wort, I would get the 5 gallon HDPE... so as to reduce the O2 as much as possible. But since I am not planning to store anything, I am going with the 6 gallon to reduce the blow off/need for foam control issue. If I can make this work, it will reduce my workload, wasted water, need for equipment.

I made a PRO/CON list for the 5 gallon and 6 gallon carboys... the 6gal won by a mile since I am NOT storing wort.

 

[ghpeel]

Man, this is all very exciting to a new/lazy brewer like myself! I just bought a 5 gallon cooler with the intention of doing deathbrewer's stove top partial mashing techniques, which really seem like a precursor to the Aussie BIAB stuff.

So, I have 2 questions that are not disease related:

1) The materials used in BIAB in the BYO magazine are listed a "voil" or "chiffon". What materials/commercially available bags can we get locally to replicate this? I've ordered a "grain straining bag" but I wonder if there's a way to tell if it will be fine enough, but not too fine. PLEASE someone tell me that the near-disposable paint strainer bags from the home improvement megamart will work, because those puppies are cheap. I've picked up a couple to experiment with now. If they aren't fine enough on their own, would using 2 at a time (one inside the other) work, I wonder?

2) Is there really any difference between using a wort cube and just dumping the wort into a clean 5 gallon carboy, then plugging the carboy with a sanitized solid stopper? This idea came to me recently before I read about the Aussie no-chill method, but I disregarded it as every brew book I said practically screamed that I needed to pitch yeast AS SOON AS HUMANLY POSSIBLE.

 

[chefmike]

2) Is there really any difference between using a wort cube and just dumping the wort into a clean 5 gallon carboy, then plugging the carboy with a sanitized solid stopper? This idea came to me recently before I read about the Aussie no-chill method, but I disregarded it as every brew book I said practically screamed that I needed to pitch yeast AS SOON AS HUMANLY POSSIBLE.

Is the carboy glass? heat + glass= dangerous (temperature changes etc)

I think the 4% reduction in volume of the wort would likely suck the stopper into the carboy.

 

[Parker36]

Glass is actually very resistant to heat as long as there aren't large, rapid changes in temp. It can absolutely handle higher temps than plastic, but don't dump boiling wort into a glass carboy surrounded by ice.

 

[The Pol]

There is a risk of the glass shattering... it cannot expand when heated without cracking.

The stopper would get sucked in, or the glass would shatter, probably.

HDPE... will "suck in" and handle the 4% shrinkage.

HDPE will handle the temp, the shrinkage... it will do the trick. Will it be a good fermentor? Why not if PET is? I will see, it may work.

 

[FlyGuy]

A glass carboy is likely to shatter if you pour boiling hot wort into it, even at room temperature. And PET carboys (i.e. Better Bottles) will melt. Unless you have a thick HDPE carboy, it is simply not possible to go directly from the boil kettle to a carboy.

 

[conpewter]

The Pol, I also think this will be perfectly safe for you, especially since you are not storing it. Will you be doing a 10 gal batch and doing one the traditional cooling method and one in the cube to compare flavor profiles?

 

[The Pol]

I am doing a brew that I have made 5+ times, and currently have kegged. If there are any real differences, I should be able to tell. It is a really simple brew with a really simple hop schedule... so we will see.

I am going to whirlpool and let it settle for a bit prior to racking to the carboy. There are a multitude of things that could go right or wrong here... it will be interesting to try an entirely new (to me) process.

 

[bakins]

1) The materials used in BIAB in the BYO magazine are listed a "voil" or "chiffon". What materials/commercially available bags can we get locally to replicate this? I've ordered a "grain straining bag" but I wonder if there's a way to tell if it will be fine enough, but not too fine. PLEASE someone tell me that the near-disposable paint strainer bags from the home improvement megamart will work, because those puppies are cheap. I've picked up a couple to experiment with now. If they aren't fine enough on their own, would using 2 at a time (one inside the other) work, I wonder?

Yea, the paint bags should work. You may need to use 2 just to contain all the grains.

My wife found some stuff at a fabric store and that's what my bag is made of. I made a bag within a bag for mine, mostly because the material I got seemed kinda flimsy and I didn't wan it to rip. It hasn't in my BiaB experiments.