New BYO Aussi brewing article

[Danek]

What sort of cube are we talking here?

 

[The Pol]

What sort of cube are we talking here?

HDPE with a sealing lid

 

[Brewme]

does it have to be a cube?

Joking aside. This is the first time I read about this. Before I thought that this no chill meant leaving the wort in the kettle and letting it cool there. The only concern I would have with prolonged storage in the cube is botulism. Boiling doesn't kill its spores (only pressure canning does) and it thrives in O2 free environments. While the pH of beer is too low for it to grow it can grow in wort where the pH is higher.

Has that concern be discussed before?

Kai

Botulism was brought up on the BN podcast. I think I'll just stick with a wort cooler.

 

[Kaiser]

I presume that any worries about DMS are alleviated in the boil? So sealing up hot wort wont be an issue there?

With PiMa, you have to boil 90 min or more to convert enough SMM to DMS drive that off.

Kai

 

[remilard]

A handful of people die each year from food borne botulism. Almost always from eating improperly home-canned food. This cube thing is certainly improper home canning.

Now, there will probably be no botulin toxin in these beers. The problem is, that on the off chance that there is, you find out by dying.

 

[The Pol]

Screw it, I am looking for a 5 gallon cube... I am game. I will try it. I only plan to chill overnight, then pitch. Why? Shortens my BREW DAY, and uses a lot less water than my IC. If it works, cool, if not... oh well, I have to brew again, DARN!

I will use a recipe that I have brewed about 5x... to see if there is any noticeable difference.

Anyone with a good source for HDPE "cubes"?

 

[The Pol]

A handful of people die each year from food borne botulism. Almost always from eating improperly home-canned food. This cube thing is certainly improper home canning.

Now, there will probably be no botulin toxin in these beers. The problem is, that on the off chance that there is, you find out by dying.

Is 24 hours long enough to get botulism? How come the Aussies arent dropping like flies?

 

[noisy123]

From: the FDA on home canning
"C. Botulinum is a living organism which is almost universally present. Under certain conditions, C. botulinum can grow in foods and produce a powerful toxin which affects the nervous system. C. botulinum will only grow in foods which: are packaged in the absence of oxygen; have a "favorable" pH and temperature; and contain water and nutrients necessary for its growth. Low-acid canned foods provide this favorable environment. When a product is acidified to a pH of 4.6 or less, according to FDA's Good Manufacturing Practices, inhibition of the growth of C. botulinum is assured. "


What is the pH of wort?

P.S. The article mentioned usplastic.com, anyone see the part number?

 

[The Pol]

Wort is not below 4.6 as far as I know...

 

[The Pol]

I am still doing it, chillers are for pansies.

 

[noisy123]

The point here is really academic. I think the problem here is distinguishing wort from beer. Botulism can survive in wort according to "Food Authenticity and Traceability" by Michele Lees, but once the yeast is pitched the botulism will die.

 

[The Pol]

Keep us posted Pol on how it works.

IF I survive...

 

[ericm]

The point here is really academic. I think the problem here is distinguishing wort from beer. Botulism can survive in wort according to "Food Authenticity and Traceability" by Michele Lees, but once the yeast is pitched the botulism will die.

FWIW, if the botulism bacteria do in fact grow in the wort (which it seems the aussie empirical evidence says they don't), if they were killed once the yeast is pitched, it doesn't mean it's safe - the toxin they produce is still there. the main cause of botulism in adults isn't from consuming the bacteria but from consuming the toxin.

 

[Kaiser]

Methinks John Palmer, as well as the editorial staff (and maybe even legal department) of BYO would NOT have written up the process if the potential to die were there. How come most of the time we worship the ground he walks on...yet in this case because it goes against what we've been told, it suddenly is suspect??? Did JP suddenly become dumb???

Good point.

I raised the concern b/c it was mentioned that the wort keep forever if sealed in that cube. I have little experience w/ C. botulinum and it’s toxin. I just know that it can grow in wort (especially since sealed wort is void of O2). But I don’t know how long you have to leave wort unpitched for it to become dangerous.

Surely it seems to work and I don’t argue w/ that. I’m just curious as to why and if there is a risk, where are the boundaries.

The assumption that beer won’t kill you is based on the fact that it won’t remain unpitched for long.

Don’t give JP too much credit. Some of the recent Brew Strong episodes weren’t as strong as I hoped for. I thought it was common knowledge that the CO2 content of air is way less then 1% and that you should never drop anything into a liquid that is boiled in a smooth glass container. I did it once and had a hot wort volcano going.

Kai

 

[noisy123]

FWIW, if the botulism bacteria do in fact grow in the wort (which it seems the aussie empirical evidence says they don't), if they were killed once the yeast is pitched, it doesn't mean it's safe - the toxin they produce is still there. the main cause of botulism in adults isn't from consuming the bacteria but from consuming the toxin.

I see, I thought the bacteria were the problem. From the text I cited just about anything will grow in wort if given the right conditions. The question then is Kaiser's above: how much toxin can be produced?

I'll refer you all to the following thread where the issue of toxins in starter was discussed:
Beer and Homebrew Forums - Brew-Monkey.Com - Foodpoisoning
The conclusion they come to, based on a food safety expert's opinion, is that the safest way to prepare wort for future use is to heat above spore-killing temps (i.e. with a pressure cooker).
Apparently this issue was addressed in the 9/06 and 11/06 issues of BYO.

Not saying I wouldn't drink a beer brewed this way. I absolutely would, but facts are facts.

 

[conpewter]

I would agree that the concern is the botulism toxin, not the bacteria itself (as that will get killed during fermentation). For all we know the toxin would get denatured during fermentation as well, but I don't know how to prove that.

I've wondered about this method as well, and would really simplify AG brewing.

 

[Revvy]

Watch out -- there's a new mod in Dodge today!

IB4TL

Yeah, let's get back to the original topic at hand...

My only concern would be the lack of a quick cold break, which as OUR common wisdom has it, happens if you don't chill quickly.

IIRC the article said that that isn't really an issue for them...I can't recall if palmer said that their beer is still clear because the used finnings or did something else during fermentation, or because they don't care...

 

[The Pol]

Well, if I live, there is no concern. If I die, well... you will know.

If Crocodile Dundee can do it, so can I...

 

[The Pol]

So am I the only dude trying this? My beer is going to rock... Aussies are innovators. We are simply followers

 

[Kaiser]

I’m not sure how much data there is regarding the amount of cold trub and the speed of chilling. Here is an experiment that we can do:

At the end of the boil fill 2 closable vials with hot break free wort. Drop one on room temp water and the other in a large pot with 100C water. Now let both coast down to room temp and compare the amount of haze in them after they have the same temp.

All this tells us is that haze stability of the final beer should be evaluated if we are doing a side-by-side for no-chill vs. standard chilling.

Kai

 

[The Pol]

I’m not sure how much data there is regarding the amount of cold trub and the speed of chilling. Here is an experiment that we can do:

At the end of the boil fill 2 closable vials with hot break free wort. Drop one on room temp water and the other in a large pot with 100C water. Now let both coast down to room temp and compare the amount of haze in them after they have the same temp.

All this tells us is that haze stability of the final beer should be evaluated if we are doing a side-by-side for no-chill vs. standard chilling.

Kai

I can do that, this will actually make a great article for my second job!

 

[Revvy]

I’m not sure how much data there is regarding the amount of cold trub and the speed of chilling. Here is an experiment that we can do:

At the end of the boil fill 2 closable vials with hot break free wort. Drop one on room temp water and the other in a large pot with 100C water. Now let both coast down to room temp and compare the amount of haze in them after they have the same temp.

All this tells us is that haze stability of the final beer should be evaluated if we are doing a side-by-side for no-chill vs. standard chilling.

Kai

You know you are my hero, Kai!!!

I got all tingly (in a purely hetero way, remmy) when you end up on Basic Brewing!

 

[remilard]

And sadly I didn't think to keep the link...I just cut and pasted the info into a file with a lot of other stuff...

The quote was made by Kevin Pratt at the brew-monkey forum. The thread the post was made in was actually linked in this thread.

 

[Revvy]

So am I the only dude trying this? My beer is going to rock... Aussies are innovators. We are simply followers

I'd try it if I had a cold enough place or a fridge, freezer to stick the cube in..or even a private outdoor place in which I could leave it overnight...

 

[FlyGuy]

Because MAYBE I made a mistake, and THOUGHT he or she was....I cut, I pasted I stuck it in a file...

Well, even if Kevin Pratt is not a microbiologist, he is a pretty knowledgeable brewer. Knowledgeable enough to be a Master-level BJCP judge, one of the most highly respected BJCP instructors in the country, and the Associate Exam Director for the BJCP. Aside from the fact that he was talking about pathogens in beer, not stored wort, I thought it all seemed fairly accurate and relevant.

 

[Revvy]

Well, even if Kevin Pratt is not a microbiologist, he is a pretty knowledgeable brewer. Knowledgeable enough to be a Master-level BJCP judge, one of the most highly respected BJCP instructors in the country, and the Associate Exam Director for the BJCP. Aside from the fact that he was talking about pathogens in beer, not stored wort, I thought it all seemed fairly accurate and relevant.

I was about to bring that up myself..

I mean...gee isn't Palmer a Metalurgist by trade and training, yet he seems to speak pretty knowledgable about brewing stuff, chemistry, ingredients, microbiology of yeast and stuff.... eh?



And in the future I will be sure to credit Kevin Pratt and his TRUE qualifications. Because I am quite sure that the new brewers who are afraid of poisoning their friends with their beer will still get the message to RDWHAHB from the very good info on there, regardless (or is it Irregardless Remmy, I'm SURE you'll tell me ) of his qualifications.

 

[flyangler18]

I'll admit- botulism toxin scares the bejeezus out of me, and the technique being discussed here makes me very uneasy.

I don't see myself trying it.

 

[remilard]

But gee, if they Boil the wort afterwords...then pitch yeast...wouldn't that make the whole argument irrevelant?

Yes, if the wort in no chill brewing was reboiled and rapidly chilled immediately prior to pitching yeast, then botulism would be no risk at all.

That is not my understanding of the technique.

 

[Schlenkerla]

I'll admit- botulism toxin scares the bejeezus out of me, and the technique being discussed here makes me very uneasy.

I don't see myself trying it.

Ditto - I like doing what I do now. I make good beer and I don't do it to be cheap. I can't see me changing much unless I get a rig of some sort.

 

[shecky]

I'll admit- botulism toxin scares the bejeezus out of me, and the technique being discussed here makes me very uneasy.

I don't see myself trying it.

I can't see why anybody would try anything that would even provide a hint of botulism.

But maybe I'm daft.

EDIT: Oh, and Schlenkerla, that mangina thing, damn you.