New brewers.Stop trying to doctor your beer !

[MalFet]

The problem is that not nearly enough of us feel the calling to tell teh noobs how it is. I've often felt that my life would far better if only there were more people on the Internet with the courage and the conviction to give me the unsolicited advice I so sorely need.

 

[TopherM]

NOOBIE A takes a Cooper's Light Lager kit, adds 4lb of brown sugar and 1 lb of strawberries and expects to make a 12.0 ABV Pete's Wicked, only to end up with 5 gallons of watered down grain alcohol. NOOBIE B never brews again because he thinks it's just not his forte.

NOOBIE B reads Homebrewing for Dummies and How to Brew cover to cover, is active on a homebrew forum for 6 months before he ever brews, seeks out help buying his basic rig, seeks out help picking out his first recipe, asks a million questions before brewing, and brews a basic style kit to style, following every direction, that turns out great. NOOBIE B is addicted to homebrewing for life.

The "PROBLEM" the OP and others keep speaking of is not a problem at all. We need and want more respectful NOOBIE Bs in our homebrew community, and NO ONE likes or wants the know-it-all NOOBIE As. It's natural selection at work!

Now, I'm off to learn how to bake cookies. I'm thinking I'll start with a triple fudge Biscotti. My girlfriend is nagging that I should start with a pre-made pilsbury sugar cookie, but WTF does she know, she can only make chocolate chip. F that noizzzzze!

 

[Mikespunchlist]

OK....lets slow the roll on this one. First of all, this is the beginners forum. If you've been brewing 2 years and doing all grain....you ain't no beginner. Post them in the advanced forum. If you just started brewing and try wild stuff...don't whine on here about why your cherry wheat brown sugar vanilla russian porter stout with a twist of lime smells like armpit and the airlock don't bubble. Get the basics of real beer down and the get to the experimentation stage. If you're doing a kit stick to it. If a tried recipe stick to that. When it comes out drinkable....then tweak the next batch till it's ears fall off! My 2 cents...back to your regular programming.

 

[apparatus]

Because it's not "experimentation" if you don't understand, or have experience with the BASICS first.

My take on this is that there is a difference between true experimentation and throwing things together "willy nilly." I have noticed on here is that a lot of noobs think what they are doing is experimentation, when in reality they are just throwing a bunch of stuff against the wall and hoping it sticks.

Working on your process is good way of doing this, as is reading.

Throwing a bunch of stuff in your fermenter and seeing what you get at the end, and ending up making an "is my beer ruined" thread is not the same thing as experimenting.

To me, in order to experiment truly, you have to have an understanding of the fundamentals. You have to know how the process works somewhat. You have to have an understanding of how different ingredients or processes affect the final product. You may even need to know, or at least understand something about beer styles, and what goes into making one beer a Porter and another a pale ale. And where your concoction will fall on the continuoum.

To me it's like cooking or even Jazz. But going back to the cooking analogy. Coming up with a balanced and tasty recipe takes some understanding of things...just like cooking...dumping a cup of salt will more than likely ruin a recipe...so if you cook, you KNOW not to do that...it's the same with brewing...you get an idea with experience and looking at recipes, brewing and playing with software how things work..what flavors work with each other, etc...

That to me is the essence of creating...I have gotten to a point where I understand what I am doing, I get how ingredients work or don't work with each other, so I am not just throwing a bunch of stuff together to see what I get.

I have an idea of what I want it to taste like, and my challenge then is to get the right combination of ingredients to match what is in my head. That's also pretty much how I come up with new food recipes as well.

You'll get there....a LOT sooner, if you focus on the fundamentals, and get your processes in order...rather than just playing around.

If you're brewing with kits, and want a stronger beer, then brew higher gravity kits.

If you want a strong beer, don't choose a normal gravity beer and decide that since you read about boosting gravity by adding more sugars to just add more sugar, choose a beet of the grav you want, just like if you wand a peach beer, don't choose a non fruit beer recipe and try to "figure out" how to add the fruit...get a kit or recipe that has everything you need in the right quantities you need. Recipes are about a BALANCE between flavors, bitterness, aromas, what have you, and until you get a few batches under your belt, and learn the fundamentals, stick with the already proven and balanced recipes. That way you don't have the extra step of trying to figure out what went wrong if the beer doesn't taste good.....if the recipe or kit already tastes good (and they would have gone through tastes tests and ALREADY before you got to them- you know they are already good, if not award winning beers, if you went with a kit or book recipe, they have been vetted) if there is something not right, you will have an easier time trying to figure out what went wrong in terms of your brewing PROCESS, not because you went off the ranch and on top of trying to actually learn to brew, you also through a bunch of crap into the equation.

If you want a fruit beer, buy a fruit beer kit....

Beer recipes are a balance...and if you add to one variable, that will affect other parts of it...For example if you decide to raise the gravity of a balanced beer...a beer where the hops balance out the sweetness...and you raise the maltniness of it without also balancing the hops, then your beer may end up being way too cloyingly sweet. Or if you just add sugar willy nilly it could become overly dry, or cidery.

At this stage most folks trying to do it don't know enough yet, and they won't learn just by jacking a recipe o your first time out of the box. Don't start altering recipes on your first batch, or else you're gonna be posting a thread titled, "Why does my beer taste like I licked Satan's Anus after he ate a dozen coneys?" And we're not going to be able to answer you, because you've screwed with the recipe as well as maybe made a few noob brewer mistakes that typically get made, and neither you, nor us, are going to be able to figure out what went wrong. Because there's too many variables.

Just brew a couple batches and learn from them, and read books about recipe creation before you start messing around. It's not about tossing stuff into a fermenter and seeing how it turns out.If you want to make strong beers, learn to make GOOD beers first.

Read and learn about creating great RECIPES, not just how to boost the alcohol content of a beer. Learn about the ingredients, how they affect each other, how they balance each other.


There's nothing WRONG with Cooper's kits, or any kits really, they don't need to be messed with by a bunch of new brewers who don't know anything yet.

They weren't made by amateurs for chrissake, recipe kits be it kit and kilo or other kits are designed by folks with a LOT MORE EXPERIENCE then the person wanting to f with it....

+1. Very well said.

 

[joerose]

As a new brewer I agree with almost all that's been posted on here. I am also very grateful for all of the info I've gathered on here. That being said, I'm also amazingly shocked at the ignorance some people have in the process. I am not an expert, but daily I am left shaking my head and saying wtf is this person thinking. I think that ignorance is what makes the more experienced people frustrated and reluctant to help. This forum and my brother in law got me into this hobby. This forum, my brother in law and my lhbs is what keeps me in it. Not to mention the deliciousness that I keep producing. Just my opinion, thought I'd share.

 

[TimpanogosSlim]

Is it experimentation if I scour the internets for a dozen recipes of the same style, compare their similarities and their differences, determine which variables are tweaked for what effects, and then use one of those recipes as the basis for my own version?

Because I do that sometimes.

 

[ghova]

Also as a new brewer it is hard to resist the temptation to alter that first kit a little bit to make it your own.

My first brew is sitting in the primary now and it has been two weeks since brew day. Coopers lager with the pre-hopped LME and booster.
I told myself I would just do what the instructions (plus my research) said to do and i would have decent beer. But on brew day i couldnt resist the urge to add a # of DME to the mix, just to raise the OG a little and try to make it a little different from what comes in the kit. I didnt want to drink 6 gallons of boring plain lager/ale. (The can says it's a lager but the instructions and yeast dont follow lagering procedures.)
So after I reach my FG (1.005 from 1.040) it tastes fine, but is just a little sweet and i want a little bitterness to counteract it. So i make a hop tea with a quart of water and .5 oz of some high alpha acid hops boiling them for 15 minutes, add those to the primary and also add .75 oz of cascade as a dry hop to give it some nose.
Now a week later I am pretty happy with how it tastes, the little bit of sweetness has been replaced by a little bit of bitterness and will make it much more pleasant to consume (according to my taste buds). The little bit of extra water lowered by FG a little but I think the extra bitterness helped the beer overall. We will see how it tastes once carbonated in a few more weeks.

So I think most new brewers that have done any research know not to mess around with the kits, but the urge to do so is overwhelming.
My next kit is a bit more complex, with steeping grains and hop additions, so I think i will be able to resist the urge to do any tinkering.

Those pure extract kits are boring though and I think i did the right thing by playing around with it a little.

 

[TopherM]

i couldnt resist the urge to add a # of DME to the mix, just to raise the OG a little

Followed by

The little bit of extra water lowered FG a little

My true wisdom for the day: Just like everything in life, sometimes you just have to let people (kids, friends, significant others, brewing newbies, etc.) learn from their own experiences, instead of spending too much time and effort trying to keep them safe

 

[iskuse]

Adding fruit, racking to a secondary or anything outside of what the recipe calls for is not needed. it will lead to heartache . i can understand someone wanting to doctor up a pre hopped can of extract. but for sakes why try to make a recipe your own by adding a ton of fruit etc to it. <~~~~ wine making forum is that way.
Yes ill have some cheese with my whine !

That's some really good advice for...... I'm not sure, NOBODY!

 

[Revvy]

Is it experimentation if I scour the internets for a dozen recipes of the same style, compare their similarities and their differences, determine which variables are tweaked for what effects, and then use one of those recipes as the basis for my own version?

Because I do that sometimes.

That's exactly how I create recipes.

 

[m_c_zero]

Who cares if people experiment? You don't have to drink their beer...

 

[Revvy]

Who cares if people experiment? You don't have to drink their beer...

Because what happens more often then not, is that folks start off "experimenting" end up making crappy beer, and then get out of the hobby. As opposed to those who take some time to learn, make good beer and end up loving the hobby.....

 

[KeyWestBrewing]

If you want to make progress sometimes you have to experiment and push the boundaries. You can't be afraid to make mistakes, just be ready to learn from them.

 

[huntb]

I've brewed 4 batches and not one of them did I follow the exact recipe. The first three turned out great and the fourth is bubbling away. Why do people care so much anyways?

 

[Wirk]

I am a noob(5 batches so far, all of them AG) and I always have to experiment.

Not because I liked it at first, but because my LHBS doesn't have much variety of things, like 6 types of yeasts(and its the biggest one in my country lol), not so much types of malt, and a small variety of hops.

The important thing is, I experiment but I don't do radical changes. Normally what I do is read a lot of recipes of the style of beer I want to brew... then I try to understand what variables do what effects and I come up with my "own" recipe using the things I can found in my LHBS.

I believe that in brewing(and in most things in life actually) you have to start simple, master the process and then experiment, if you don't understand the basics you are not experimenting, you are just doing random things to your product.

 

[danielbt]

Because what happens more often then not, is that folks start off "experimenting" end up making crappy beer, and then get out of the hobby. As opposed to those who take some time to learn, make good beer and end up loving the hobby.....

So, more lightly-used, cheap brewing gear for the rest of us?

 

[Revvy]

So, more lightly-used, cheap brewing gear for the rest of us?

I was going to say something similar in my post. But yeah it happens all the time. Craiglslist is full of that.

 

[RoughandReadyRanch]

I've brewed 4 batches and not one of them did I follow the exact recipe. The first three turned out great and the fourth is bubbling away. Why do people care so much anyways?

I am guessing they care so much because they have several years of reading these posts from people who don't do their homework and then constantly wonder why it went wrong. I tend to feel that way ab out things the older I get as well. The funny part is I am seriously new to this as well as the forum and I decided to make a kit and did all the homework I possibly could I chose a simple Dunkelweizen from more beer and utilized the web, library, homebrewing friends, and anything else I could get info from. Needless to say I have a fridge of about 50 bottles of the sourest undrinkable crap you will ever taste. I followed the recipe to the "T". I didn't call for help or ask why. I looked at my process and did some homework and found the error in my ways (had to transport wort about 100 yards to fermentation shed and we put the lid on and drove it. Lid was not sterile and I remember seeing where the wort had sloshed against it when I removed it.) Whoops. Life goes on, My second beer was taken from several different recipes based on flavors I wanted in a beer. I even racked on a secondary against all sage advice I read on these and many other forums as well as texts. I am drinking what is now my favorite porter and I am pressing forward to the next beer. Maybe I am the type "B" mentioned earlier, but I think rules were meant to be broken and failure is simply a chance to learn. Revvy... Sometimes a cup of salt tastes great. Just watch that crazy Anne Burrell on the food network. She goes for 2 or 3!:cross:

 

[COLObrewer]

If nobody ever experimented with beer, there would not be a forum regarding it on the internet, how boring would that be? I get what you're all saying about learning HOW to brew before you go experimenting and I'm all about trying to perfect a style or 50, but how many of those styles came about from experimenting or even mistakes. It is true that you need to document your process in detail in order to repeat it, or change it in some manner, but after that I say, EXPERIMENT AWAY!!

 

[xjmox14x]

Last time I checked, you learn just as much, if not more, getting things wrong than getting them right.

 

[starrfish]

I'm all for experimentation, BUT your base process needs to be solid before you can get controlled results. I stayed with basics for about first 100 gallons back in 1994. Then I stepped up to honey, then some herbs (coriander a traditional brewing spice), and oak and fruit.
Brewed a house pale 2 weeks apart same base recipe, but switched up yeast... I am certain any difference in flavor/aroma is from yeast not other factors. Everything was IDENTICAL from grain crush, to mash temp, to pitch rate/temp, ferm temp, and time in tank...

Forever learning Forever playing, but my process is rock solid at this point.

 

[TimpanogosSlim]

I've done some semi-random experimenting.

After i brewed a honey nut brown ale and found that i didn't like what the honey added to it, I tried replacing the % of fermentables the honey added with cooked brown rice, and liked what that did.

I've suggested some crazy things. I grow concord grapes - because my house came with several vines. I'm not a wine drinker and i know that concord is not a wine grape. But this fall i plan to stew about a pound of concords and rack a 1 gallon batch of witbier over the resulting purple mush, just to see how that turns out.

So I don't know where i fall in this debate. I think n00bs should be careful because 5 gallons of bad beer is a tragedy, but i don't want to tell people they shouldn't try tweaking their recipes.

 

[Breck09]

I guess my question would be why do people care what others do to their own homebrew. And if someone says because they are sick of the noobs coming on here complaining that their beer sucks or is their beer ruined when they put a bunch of fruit or other items in it to doctor the recipe, then just don't read those threads. That's what I do.

Sorry for the long second sentence.

 

[Revvy]

I guess my question would be why do people care what others do to their own homebrew. And if someone says because they are sick of the noobs coming on here complaining that their beer sucks or is their beer ruined when they put a bunch of fruit or other items in it to doctor the recipe, then just don't read those threads. That's what I do.

Sorry for the long second sentence.

Well, because some of us care about new brewers, that's why we spend such a long time on here helping them......And as that pertains to this discussions a lot of their problems, that we have to help them through, would be avoided if in the beginning they didn't try to toss the whole kitchen sink into their first beers, without understanding what they're doing.

So why do you care so much what we care about then? If you don't like some of our opinions or answers then just don't read this thread.

We have just as much right to "care" what new brewers do, and discuss it, as you evidently don't.....

 

[bleme]

Brewed a house pale 2 weeks apart same base recipe, but switched up yeast... I am certain any difference in flavor/aroma is from yeast not other factors. Everything was IDENTICAL from grain crush, to mash temp, to pitch rate/temp, ferm temp, and time in tank...

You try to control as much as possible, but part of the glory of homebrewing is that the yeast is really in control. I brewed a 10 gallon batch a few months back and split between 2 buckets. It was the same wort, fermented side-by-side at the same temps with the same yeast. There were still noticeable differences between the 2 buckets!

Heck, I've had several batches that were different from one bottle to the next!

 

[Onlooker]

But on brew day i couldnt resist the urge to add a # of DME to the mix, just to raise the OG a little and try to make it a little different from what comes in the kit. ... it tastes fine, but is just a little sweet and i want a little bitterness to counteract it. .

But don't you see that if you had understood the brewing process, and ingredients, and recipe formulation, you would have understood that adding that DME was going to un-balance the flavor profile, and thus you needed to adjust your hops profile. If done right you could have ended up with a higher ABV beer that tasted good, with good balance.

But instead you had to use some bastardized process to try to get there, after realizing your mistake (I suppose) and ended up with a less than optimum result.

Hey, it's your prerogative to do whatever you want with your beer. And if the tinkering around is more important than the end result then it doesn't really matter what you do. But at least I hope you learned the true lesson from your mistake.

 

[ghova]

But don't you see that if you had understood the brewing process, and ingredients, and recipe formulation, you would have understood that adding that DME was going to un-balance the flavor profile, and thus you needed to adjust your hops profile. If done right you could have ended up with a higher ABV beer that tasted good, with good balance.

But instead you had to use some bastardized process to try to get there, after realizing your mistake (I suppose) and ended up with a less than optimum result.

Hey, it's your prerogative to do whatever you want with your beer. And if the tinkering around is more important than the end result then it doesn't really matter what you do. But at least I hope you learned the true lesson from your mistake.

Yes I do see that. And I think making the mistakes I made, and hopefully fixing them, has taught me more about brewing than I would have learned just following the directions exactly and having a decent beer.

 

[Breck09]

I understand about caring about new brewers. Hell I still consider myself a new brewer. I just found it odd that the OP would go as far out as to tell new brewers to stop putting specific things into their beer. Just didn't understand how it was hurting him or anyone for that matter. I 100% agree with the majority of the opinions here that when starting out do something easy, but I would by no means scorn someone if they wanted to throw a bunch of fruit in their first batch of an Irish Stout. Let them learn for themselves.

I think about it this way to, if we didn't have a bunch of people doing this exact thing the OP talks about there would probably be about 6 threads in this whole forum. Having them (myself included) screw up from time to time it gives people the opportunity to post in here and do what they love to do, help new brewers.

 

[Revvy]

This is just one of those discussions that happens on here everything year...it's really nothing new to anyone who's been around here awhile. It's one of those traditions that happen on here, and there's two camps........







And it all doesn't mean ****.....

 

[lonestartiger]

well crap, my second batch of beer was a wheat extract kit that I racked onto 7 lbs of blueberries, and it came out fantastic. Didnt realize I was doing it wrong