Never used liquid yeast, is there anything I need to know?

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james138

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So I've only made three batches so far and I've only used dry yeast. For my next batch I'm going to be brewing an Imperial Hefewiezen. I decided to use 3056 to possibly enhance the banana and clove taste. Is there anything I need to know? I just smash the pack the day before and just leave it on the counter and pitch it like I normally would, correct? Can I expect to notice any difference in taste?
 
You can just smash the pack and throw it in, but a better thing to do would be to make a simple starter. This will help close the gap in the difference between the amount of yeast you should be pitching and the amount of yeast in the pack.

Making a starter is very simple, and has a ton of advantages. There are a lot of good threads on this subject, but in a nut shell:

a) 2 days before your brew day
b) Simply take a clean/sanitized container of about 1-2 liters in size
c) Boil up some DME with water in a ration of 100mg DME to 1 Liter water (1.030-1.040 FG is typically recommended for starters). 10 -15 minute boil is plenty.
d) Cool it, pitch in your yeast, and cover it with sanitized foil (to let air in and keep nasty things out.)
f) Then just give it a shake/swirl every time you walk by to rouse the yeast and get more air into the starter.
g) Put it in the fridge the night before
h) take out of the fridge and gently decant (pour off) the liquid leaving the yeast at the bottom (leave a small amount of liquid to slurry the yeast). Leave this on your counter while you brew to warm up.
i) swirl up the yeast into a slurry and toss it in your fermentor.

G and H are optional you can just swirl and throw the whole thing in if you want. I just like to remove all the liquid I can before pitching the yeast.
In terms of flavor, I think you will get better flavor, not because of using liquid vs dry yeast, but by simply having more options for your yeast. This will let you find a yeast that really compliments the style you want to brew.
 
You should make a starter when using liquid yeast regardless of the gravity of the beer.

The biggest reason I suggest folks make a starter is if you make one you'll have peace of mind. It's especially important if you have questionable situation happenning with your yeast, like not being sure the yeast arrived healthy. ;)

And you won't be starting an "is my yeast dead" thread in a couple of days.

Making a starter first insures that your yeast is still alive and viable before you dump it in your beer. You will be less likely to start one of those "is my yeast dead?" threads that are on here every day.

You will also ensure that you have enough yeast usually the tubes and smack packs are a lot less yeast that you really should use for healthy fermentation.

Making a starter also usually means your beer will take off sooner, because the first thing that the little buggers do in the presence of wort (whether in a flask or in a fermenter) is have an orgy to reproduce enough cells to do the job...So it won't take such a long time in the fermenter since they started doing it in the flask.

Additionally it is better for the yeast to consume and reproduce incrementally rather than just dumping them into the fermenter...The yeast will be less stressed out than if you just dump them in.

Stressed out yeast can lead to a lot of off flavors...maybe even (though rare) the dreaded autolysis....Or the curse of 1.030....getting a stuck fermentation because the yeast have bit the dust.

So making a starter proves your yeast is still healthy, allows you to grow enough yeast to do the job, cuts down on lag time, and ensures that you will not get off flavors or stuck ferementations from stressed out yeast.

Also has to do with the actual pitch rates of the smack packs and tubes, and has to do with the data that Jamil Z has on his mr malty website.

I'll quote some of it, but really you should look at the stuff there;

Mrmalty.com

Ales & Lagers

The general consensus on pitching rates is that you want to pitch around 1 million cells of viable yeast, for every milliliter of wort, for every degree plato. A little less for an ale, a little more for a lager. George Fix states about 1.5 million for a lager and 0.75 million for an ale in his book, An Analysis of Brewing Techniques. Other literature cites a slightly higher amount. I'm going with Fix's numbers and that is what the pitching calculator uses.
The Math

If you're curious, here is the simple math to calculate the number of cells needed. For an ale, you want to pitch around 0.75 million cells of viable yeast (0.75 million for an ale, 1.5 million for a lager), for every milliliter of wort, for every degree plato.

(0.75 million) X (milliliters of wort) X (degrees Plato of the wort)

* There is about 3785 milliliters in a gallon. There are about 20,000 milliliters in 5.25 gallons.

* A degree Plato is about 1.004 of original gravity. Just divide the OG by 4 to get Plato (e.g., 1.048 is 12 degrees Plato).

So, for a 1.048 wort pitching into 5.25 gallons you need about 180 billion cells.

(750,000) X (20,000) X (12) = 180,000,000,000

As an easy to remember rough estimate, you need about 15 billion cells for each degree Plato or about 4 billion cells for each point of OG when pitching into a little over 5 gallons of wort. If you want a quick way of doing a back of the envelope estimate, that is really close to 0.75 billion cells for each point of gravity per gallon of wort. Double that to 1.5 billion for a lager.
Pitching From Tubes, Packs, or Dry Yeast

Both White Labs and Wyeast make fantastic products and you can't go wrong with either one. There are differences between their strains and each brand has pluses and minuses yet neither is better than the other across the board. Use the brand your local homebrew shop carries, if you need a way to decide.

A White Labs tube has between 70 and 120 billion cells of 100% viable yeast, depending on the yeast strain. Some cells are much larger than others and there are more or less per ml based on size. (The information on the White Labs web site stating 30 to 50 billion cells is out of date.) We can just assume there are around 100 billion very healthy yeast. You would need 2 tubes if you were pitching directly into 5.5 gallons of 1.048 wort to get the proper cell counts.

A Wyeast Activator pack (the really big ones) and the pitchable tubes have an average of 100 billion cells of 100% viable yeast. The smaller packs are around 15-18 billion cells. You would need 2 of the large packs if you were pitching directly into 5.5 gallons of 1.048 wort to get the proper cell counts. For the small packs, you'd need eleven of them!


But to make it easier he has a great pitch rate calculator Mrmalty.com

And according to his numbers on his calculator, really any beer above 1.020, you should be making a starter for.

Me personally when I use liquid yeast I just make a starter. I may not be as anal as some brewers and makes sure that I have the exact cellcount for whatever gravity beer I am making, but I do make one for the above reasons I mentioned, namely peace of mid, and a reduction in lag time.

Seriously, that's one way to insure you have clean tasting beer, not to stress out or underpitch your yeast. You may find the "bothering" to make a starter will make even the less than best kit beer come out tasting great.
 
I would make a starter, especially for any "imperial" recipe. I scored a 3 quart jug of cider, which is perfect for a 2+ liter starter which has worked well for me. Follow normal sanitation procedures. Make up a mini-wort using DME, and aim for a gravity of 1.035 to 1.040. Pitch your yeast into that when cooled. Cover with sanitized foil, give it a shake frome time to time, and let it ferment out. Crash cool in the fridge, and on brewday you can pour the "beer" off the top of the sediment layer, swirl it up good, and pitch into your wort. That's about it.

Making a starter will A) increase your cell count greatly, reducing lag time at the start and improving healthy fermentation and attenuation; B) Eliminate nagging doubts about the viability of the smack pack.

Cheers!
 
Thanks for the detailed information on the yeast, I'm going to do some reading on how to do a starter. Since I have the dry yeast as well does it make sense to dump that in just to hedge my bet, or will that ruin the beer?

"A Wyeast Activator pack (the really big ones) and the pitchable tubes have an average of 100 billion cells of 100% viable yeast. The smaller packs are around 15-18 billion cells. You would need 2 of the large packs if you were pitching directly into 5.5 gallons of 1.048 wort to get the proper cell counts. For the small packs, you'd need eleven of them!"
The SG is 1.083 and I have one Wyeast 4.25 pack to pitch. Should I have two packs? I'm making a 5 gallon batch.
 
Whoa,

Too much information. KISS. Liquid yeast is good. Starters is good. Do it.

Remember your audience.
 
I don't follow mrmalty's advice to the letter, but I do always make a simple starter with each batch. I typically get visible signs of fermentation within 4 hours. I recently did my first IIPA and I checked mrmalty and found that my simple starter just wouldn't cut it. The site said to use 2 vials of yeast in a 2.8 liter starter (for OG of 1.089). I instead used 1 vial of yeast and did a step starter (1 liter then 2 liter). I again got visible signs of fermentation within 4 hours. I was still under the optimal pitching rate of 308 billion with only 269 billion. All my beers with just a simple starter with intermittent shaking have turned out great.

My first time using liquid yeast, I didn't make a starter. I pitched WLP001 into 5.50 gallons of 1.056 OG. There was about 40 hours of lag before any signs of fermentation showed up. I was really worried by that point and it is why I always make a starter. The beer did turn out great anyway, but it really made me nervous.

Optimally, follow the advice on mrmalty (or any other quality starter tool), but it's still a huge improvement to just make a basic 1-2 liter starter.
 
Whoa,

Too much information. KISS. Liquid yeast is good. Starters is good. Do it.

Remember your audience.

If you're starting a thread on the homebrew forum, chances are you want more than a 7 word post.
 
No.

1) It's cheaper than DME, so just buy more packs.
2) The manufacturer goes through a lot of effort to build up reserves in the yeast, and you want those expended in your beer, not starter wort.
 
So... for a higher-gravity ale (like an IPA), how many packets would you pitch into your 5 gal fermenter?
 
drlars, (Edit) Just reread your question and looks like you're asking about dry not liquid. MrMalty has a calcuation for dry as well. Just select the dry yeast tab. TheYeastCalculator is for liquid only)

It depends on the gravity of the wort and the viability and cell count of the yeast you are starting with. MrMalty and the YeastCalculator will answer your question very clearly. They are both great calculators. I find the YeastCalculator a little more helpful though as it allows you to build a starter in steps if necessary.

http://yeastcalc.com/

http://www.mrmalty.com/calc/calc.html
 
@ Dan: yeah, I was wondering about the dry yeast. I think I will go for a liquid culture for my first Hefeweizen (as the yeast seems like it may play a more vital role there - and also likely do my first starter as a result), but for other ales I'm really liking how this Safale US-05 tore right into my first batch and is still going 2 weeks later.
What I was wondering is.... should I be routinely buying two packets of dry yeast to pitch into 5 gal instead of one?
(without getting too scientific with MrMalty, that is)
 
@ Dan: yeah, I was wondering about the dry yeast. I think I will go for a liquid culture for my first Hefeweizen (as the yeast seems like it may play a more vital role there - and also likely do my first starter as a result), but for other ales I'm really liking how this Safale US-05 tore right into my first batch and is still going 2 weeks later.
What I was wondering is.... should I be routinely buying two packets of dry yeast to pitch into 5 gal instead of one?
(without getting too scientific with MrMalty, that is)

Even with a OG of 1.100 Mr malty only recommends 1.7 packets of dry yeast. So 1 packet of dry yeast will do you for basically anything.
 
Cool. Thanks. Well, as far as a recommendation goes... I'll say the Safale stuff worked pretty well at room temperature (with the wort only being slightly higher than that when pitched).
 
I've never used a starter. I smack the pack and let it sit out for about 3-5 hours and pitch it when my wort has cooled to under 80. Never had any slow starts or problems.
 
I've never used a starter. I smack the pack and let it sit out for about 3-5 hours and pitch it when my wort has cooled to under 80. Never had any slow starts or problems.

I'd encourage you to try adjusting your pitching rate to the "proper" amount. Most brewers find their beers improve when they do. You don't have problems, but maybe you can make good beer great beer.
 
Well I'm now officially in the same boat as james138. I've just committed to a Hefeweizen for my next batch, so I've ordered some Wyeast 3068 Weihenstephan Weizen. So I figure I will do the starter thing.

My initial (admittedly uniformed, newbie) impression is that the dry yeast works pretty well, but I will do a liquid yeast (and thus, a starter) when brewing a hefeweizen or a particularly high-gravity beer.
 
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