NEIPA Water Profile

[Karankakr]

Hi everyone,

I brewed my first NEIPA starting with RO water and the result doesn't live up to my expectations. Even though this beer is by far the fruitiest I ever brewed, there is a disturbing taste/mouthfeel to it which I already experienced in some NEIPA commercial examples.

I started with RO water and added 0.44 g epsom salt per gal (7 Grams for 60L) and 0.82 calcium chloride per gal (13 Grams for 60L) and obtained this profile:

Ca+2 Mg+2 Na+ Cl- SO4-2 HCO
59.1 11.5 0.0 104.5 45.5 0.000

As it tastes strange, I'm thinking about correcting it with 0.38 G Gypsum per Gal, 0.13 G of table salt per Gal and 0.13 G more of calcium chloride per Gal to reach this profile:

Ca+2 Mg+2 Na+ Cl- SO4-2 HCO
91.4 11.5 13.1 140.8 101.2 0.000

Any thougts on what I'm planing to do? Does it make sense or should I be a bit more conservative? I could also go with just a bit of gypsum to raise the sulfate level (and the calcium level but I've read it has little effect on taste) and forget about the sodium and the extra calcium chloride.

Thanks!

 

[thehaze]

The second profile looks much better than the 1st one, but could you elaborate on the " disturbing taste/mouthfeel to it which I already experienced in some NEIPA commercial examples. " ?

Maybe it's not the water you are tasting...

 

[Morrey]

I totally agree your water profile is of importance in this beer. I set my Cl to 140 and SO4 to 70 which gives me a good mouthfeel. BUT....I also mash at 154F with the intention of developing a good mouthfeel with residual sugars and use 1318 yeast which is going to leave me at around 1.014 or 1.015. With some flaked adjuncts and wheat in your grain bill, a good mouthfeel is achievable. AND if that is still not enough, add a splash of lactose...but while I don't personally like that route, some do.

BTW, I just saw the post from @thehaze. Maybe you can describe more about the tastes for a better evaluation.

 

[Karankakr]

It's kinda chalky, has a mineraly taste coating the mouth, almost pukey. I'm quite sure it comes from the water, that's the only variable I changed this time. It's not a regular off flavour from bad mashing or fermentation or anything else. I do control those aspects.

 

[thehaze]

I know this has been discussed before. When you raise the Cl higher than say 50 ppm, and the sulfate is also high, you can risk experiencing a minerally taste in your beer, but I think it should not be the case of only 100 ppm Cl and 50 ppm sulfate.

As long as you are sure your actual water profile matches that, you have calculated, I would try to improve the overall mouthfeel of the beer.

I would still go 130-150 ppm Cl and 70-80 ppm sulfate on the water. Mash high, like 154-155F for 60 minutes and use a grainbill, which has a bit of flaked oats ( oat malt could also be an option ) and flaked barley ( or flaked wheat, if you prefer that ) and some sort of light ( 10-15 L ) crystal malt. Use an English yeast strain: I for one like 1318. Conan is also a fine choice, so are some other yeast strains from other yeast companies.

Dry hop in the first 24-48 hours of active fermentation. Then dry hop again 3-4 days later, leave the hops for 3-4 days more and keg/bottle. You can cold crash a bit, if you fancy that.

Regarding hop additions: do not use hops sooner than the last 15 minutes of the boil. Employ a cool whirlpool ( at around 140-150F ) with lots of hops. The low temp. will ensure you do not extract too much bitterness. Flameout hops I would leave out, if you cannot cool the wort in less than 15 minutes, time in which bitterness will still be extracted.

I have noticed that high-ish bitterness in NEIPA, could possibly clash with the water profile. Heavy dry hopping can also " apply" a certain perceived bitterness, which could translate to a slight puckering taste.

 

[Karankakr]

Thanks thehaze. I'm aware of the specifics of brewing a NEIPA. It's really a strange off taste but also a strange mouthfeel. So it definitely has smth to do with the water. I'm starting to think that the RO water could've been infected. I stored this water for 2 weeks in closed sanitized Fermenters but it's still 2 weeks at room temperature.

 

[Hwk-I-St8]

I'm wondering about the epsom salt and pH. I achieve my profile using only gypsum, calcium chloride and a touch of salt. I've never used epsom salt, but I couldn't remember why. When I went back to Bru'n water I see that adding epsom salt and gypsum flags them both red. I'm not sure why, but I figured that was bad so I went with just gypsum.

 

[thehaze]

Epsom salt adds Mg and sulfate and in higher quantities, can help lowering the pH. However, in higher quantities, it adds a lot of Mg, which I read, it can come off as tasting weird, like bitter sour off taste, most likely a bit mouth puckering.

 

[dfohio]

I'm with you on this off flavor. Brewed a neipa recently, my water was similar cl 105, SO4 57.
The beer is very muted in hop flavor. It has a minerally, salty taste that, like you, I cant describe. I can only attribute this to the water.

 

[Karankakr]

Thanks for the additional answers. I received my precision scale and will try to save the beer tomorrow but trying different additions (mostly gypsum) in the glass. I'll keep you posted.

 

[mabrungard]

At low levels, Mg doesn't affect beer flavor in my opinion. 11 ppm is nice and low, so no concerns there. I add low concentration of epsom salt in most of my brews that will benefit from sulfate, so that the Ca level isn't needlessly elevated by an excessive gypsum addition. In some cases, calcium is actually not beneficial to brewing.

Cells go Red in Bru'n Water because an ion has gone over your target concentration. When epsom salt was added, the user was probably already at the limit for both Mg and SO4.

While I'm not sure that adding more minerals to the OP's beer is going to correct anything, its easy to do in a glass of beer. If you have a scale that has fine resolution, you can figure out what those additions should be in a pint of beer. If its an improvement, then add the dose to the keg.

Off hand, I would be more inclined to attribute flavor effects on yeast and turbidity in this beer. I'm betting that the flavor is going to change appreciably as the yeast and suspended sediment fall out of the beer.

 

[ScrewyBrewer]

I get great results using Mg 2.2, Ca 152, Na 0.0, Cl 196, SO4 107, based on 91% 2-Row and 9% Torrified Wheat grain bill.

I never experienced 'off flavors' in RO water. I'm not sure how a water profile could be the sole cause of off flavors in your beer. Are you in the habit of tasting your treated brewing water before using it in the mash?

 

[Karankakr]

Thanks a lot to everyone for all your thoughts and suggestions. I tried different approaches, without being able to completely suppress this pukey/minerally taste but I still could limit it.

Here are the results of my experimentations.

1) Added some gypsum, some sodium and more calcium chloride to reach this profile:

Ca+2 Mg+2 Na+ Cl- SO4-2 HCO

134.3 11.5 24.9 199.2 149.6 0.000

Comment: still pukey/minerally but like on a higher note. Doesn’t really improve the beer.


2) Added some gypsum, a bit of sodium and a tiny bit more calcium chloride to reach this profile:

Ca+2 Mg+2 Na+ Cl- SO4-2 HCO

98.4 11.5 9.8 135.7 118.0 0.000

Comments: the higher sulfate does “mute” the hops a bit and increases the bitterness perception but it also covers/reduces the pukey/minerally taste. It’s still isn’t great but it’s a lot better.


My current thoughts: as I said, the water could’ve been infected and I still doubt that I’ll be able to fix this issue. I’ll only know for sure when I’ve done it on an entire keg (had problems mixing the brewing salts really well in 5 minutes in a glass of carbonated beer, maybe it will dissolve better over a few days in the keg, plus it wasn’t all that accurate since I was working with very tiny amounts with an only acceptable precision scale). But what if there was a kind of optimum (for my taste, for this particular beer) around 80-120 sulfate and 100-140 chloride? I’ll keep experimenting in this range and then finally decide myself to do it on an entire keg. I’ll keep you posted.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Even though this beer is by far the fruitiest I ever brewed, there is a disturbing taste/mouthfeel to it which I already experienced in some NEIPA commercial examples.

It's kinda chalky, has a mineraly taste coating the mouth, almost pukey. I'm quite sure it comes from the water, that's the only variable I changed this time.

Chalky and minerally sounds like the water. However pukey could be something separate. "Baby sick" is the classic tasting note for butyrate, which is a classic symptom of bacterial infection. However, there seems to be something else in certain very hoppy beers which my other half reacts very badly to, but which I can barely taste if at all. We haven't really nailed it down as it's not very often she gets it, but is a real "face-screwed-up" moment. I suspect it's either a less-common hop variety she has a problem with, or it's just certain batches of mainstream hops that have been harvested too late or something.

But be paranoid about infection - and leaving water lying around for 2 weeks is certainly not ideal, I'd be tempted to preboil and then add half a Camden - which also forces out any oxygen which will be helpful.

 

[couchsending]

I get lots of harsh chalkiness when using higher levels of CaCl with RO water. I don’t get the same chalkiness with similar amounts of CaSo4 levels.

@mabrungard if you’re starting water has some alkalinity the CA totals will decrease during the mash when interacting with the bicarbonates correct? But you won’t lose the CL ion right? So if using RO you’re retaining all the CA from salt additions (or what doesn’t stay behind in the mash) and whatever the malt provides.

 

[mabrungard]

The loss of Ca is far less to do with carbonates and more to do with complexing with phosphates from the mash.

Chloride is a very soluble ion and it doesn't readily complex with anything in the mash. The Cl content tends to be similar for pre and post mash. Of course, the malt also adds other ions too.

 

[Unicorn_Platypus]

Mg 18, Ca 100, Na 42, Cl 200, SO4 100

What do you guys think about the above water profile?

I am using canning salt (instead of CaCl) and Epsom salt (instead of Gypsum) for some of the additions to keep calcium at 100.

Is this Mg level or sodium level too high?

Recipe below. I'm using OYL 200 (i.e. Sach Trois) yeast which is is capable of fermenting dextrins. My thought for a NEIPA is to mash high with this yeast and boost the Chloride to balance the high attention and still keep a rounder moithfeel. I've also got a hefty addition of wheat in the recipe.

-----------------------------
Amarillo Brillo

All Grain Recipe
Submitted By: brahery (Shared) (Make Private)
Download | Delete Recipe | Bookmark


Batch Size: 13.20 gal Style: Double IPA (22A)
Boil Size: 16.83 gal Style Guide: BJCP 2015
Color: 6.9 SRM
Bitterness: 32.6 IBUs Boil Time: 60 min
Est OG: 1.072 (17.6° P) Mash Profile: Brahery Mash (summer & inside)
Est FG: 1.010 SG (3.3° P) Fermentation: Ale, Two Stage
ABV: 8.14% Taste Rating: 30.0


Ingredients
Amount Name Type #
20.85 gal New York, NY Water 1
9.55 g Calcium Chloride (Mash 60 min) Misc 2
7.25 g Epsom Salt (MgSO4) (Mash 60 min) Misc 3
3.28 g Salt (Mash 60 min) Misc 4
2.65 g Gypsum (Calcium Sulfate) (Mash 60 min) Misc 5
1 lbs Rice Hulls (0.0 SRM) Adjunct 6
25 lbs Pale Malt (2 Row) US (Great Western) (3.0 SRM) Grain 7
5 lbs Wheat, White (Cargill) (2.9 SRM) Grain 8
4 lbs Wheat, Flaked (1.6 SRM) Grain 9
2 lbs Carahell - 10L (10.0 SRM) Grain 10
12.00 oz Acid Malt (3.0 SRM) Grain 11
3 lbs Wheat Dry Extract (8.0 SRM) Dry Extract 12
8.30 g Calcium Chloride (Boil 60 min) Misc 13
6.30 g Epsom Salt (MgSO4) (Boil 60 min) Misc 14
2.85 g Salt (Boil 60 min) Misc 15
2.30 g Gypsum (Calcium Sulfate) (Boil 60 min) Misc 16
1.00 Whirlfloc Tablet (Boil 15 min) Misc 17
2.00 oz Amarillo [9.2%] - Steep 30 min Hops 18
2.00 oz Idaho #7 [13.0%] - Steep 30 min Hops 19
2.00 oz Nelson Sauvin [12.0%] - Steep 30 min Hops 20
2.00 oz Nelson Sauvin [12.0%] - Steep 30 min Hops 21
2.00 oz Amarillo [9.2%] - Steep 20 min Hops 22
2.00 oz Denali (Exp 06277) [14.0%] - Steep 20 min Hops 23
2.00 oz Denali (Exp 06277) [14.0%] - Steep 20 min Hops 24
2.00 oz Idaho #7 [13.0%] - Steep 20 min Hops 25
1 pkgs Tropical IPA (Omega #OYL-200) Yeast 26
1.00 oz Amarillo (Biotransform dose) [9.2%] - Dry Hop 4 days Hops 27
1.00 oz Denali (biotranform dose) [14.0%] - Dry Hop 4 days Hops 28
1.00 oz Idaho #7 (biotransform dose) [13.0%] - Dry Hop 4 days Hops 29
1.00 oz Nelson Sauvin (biotransform dose) [12.0%] - Dry Hop 4 days Hops 30
3.00 oz Amarillo [9.2%] - Dry Hop 2 days Hops 31
3.00 oz Denali (Exp 06277) [14.0%] - Dry Hop 2 days Hops 32
3.00 oz Idaho #7 [13.0%] - Dry Hop 2 days Hops 33
3.00 oz Nelson Sauvin [12.0%] - Dry Hop 2 days Hops 34

NOTES
Mash PH 5.25 Pitch @ 70 and let rise to 75 for initial ferment (first 3-4 days). Bring up to 85 by end of two weeks

 

[mabrungard]

42 ppm Na isn't too high. I find that Na starts being notable around 70 to 100 ppm, but not necessarily bad for beer flavor. Most tasters will find that Na is readily perceived as 'salty' when its concentration rises to 250 ppm or more.

 

[visitor]

The sodium level is similar to what my tap water supply provides me. I've used a very similar profile to your Amarillo Brillo profile for NEIPA's I've made with good results. I've been meaning to find time to get back to brewing some more NEIPA's and dialing my recipes a bit more. Using pointers from that super long NEIPA thread here and some other bits along the way I've gotten positive feedback on the beers. They lack a bit of the smoothness that Trillium and Treehouse are able to pull off but I think some of that comes from propensity for extra bittering hops. While I enjoy the commercial examples I sometimes wish they had a bit more bitterness to them and my house examples seem to hit that mark.

 

[LordRogan]

I have no access to a water report here in France. They only offer microbial analysis. I know I have "calcaire" hard water. Lots of dishwasher deposits on glasses. Classic stuff. I can only ESTIMATE for a NEIPA profile. What he heck should I do? Tempted to leave it as it is.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Hmm - that's weird, I thought it was an EU thing that you had to have a mineral analysis available from your water supplier's website. They'll be doing the analysis anyway, so it may just be a question of asking them - I'm sure we've had people discussing French water profiles in the past. Also worth mentioning that the official analyses are just an average, but individual sources will vary through the year.

If you've got water that's that hard, then the one thing you don't want to do is just leave it, it won't work well, and it seems crazy to risk it when you might be spending €30+ just on hops. Boiling it will drop out a lot of bicarbonate, and acid will take care of the carbonate, but you won't know what you have left unless you get an analysis.

To be honest, your best bet is to just buy in some low-mineral mineral water - Volvic is probably your best bet of the national brands but you should be able to find something cheaper - the Carrefour Auvergne water is €4.10 for 25l, and it looks like they may have cheaper options from local sources, but the mineral composition will depend on that source.

 

[LordRogan]

Hmm - that's weird, I thought it was an EU thing that you had to have a mineral analysis available from your water supplier's website. They'll be doing the analysis anyway, so it may just be a question of asking them - I'm sure we've had people discussing French water profiles in the past. Also worth mentioning that the official analyses are just an average, but individual sources will vary through the year.

If you've got water that's that hard, then the one thing you don't want to do is just leave it, it won't work well, and it seems crazy to risk it when you might be spending €30+ just on hops. Boiling it will drop out a lot of bicarbonate, and acid will take care of the carbonate, but you won't know what you have left unless you get an analysis.

To be honest, your best bet is to just buy in some low-mineral mineral water - Volvic is probably your best bet of the national brands but you should be able to find something cheaper - the Carrefour Auvergne water is €4.10 for 25l, and it looks like they may have cheaper options from local sources, but the mineral composition will depend on that source.

Thanks for the reply Northern (from Kent) Brewer

I should have specified that this is a 150L batch. I have until now chosen styles that suit harder water but have a commission for a Pale that I have hitherto avoided here as; 1) I couldn't square the ecologically irresponsible decision to fly hops from 1000s of miles away and; 2) the water.

I have tried and tried to get analyses done to no avail.

I'm of the approximate school and have never had a problem so was looking for rough info. I know that scares some people!

This is all I can get:

Thanks for your help

 

[Northern_Brewer]

My namesake hop was born in Kent hence my avatar, but I wasn't, definitely a northerner...

OK, 150l and a concern for environment suggests preboiling is probably out. So you're left with either adding loads of acid (of which hydrochloric or AMS/CRS are probably favourites, given that you'll probably need quite a bit more chloride in there), going through something like an RO system, or buying in RO or other low-mineral water.

At that sort of scale, it gets quite tempting to just get an RO system and then you don't have to worry about water again.

As far as testing goes, even Salifert alkalinity tests would go some way and are not expensive, an "official" full test would be something like this (but I'm sure it would be more efficient to get it done within France, or Wallybrew over on Jim's will do it for about £28).

It not so much a question of being scared, it's just doing things accurately gives better results, which when you're talking an expensive beer like NEIPA, just seems to be common sense. You could do a smallscale test run, comparing a beer made with your tap water with one made with Volvic or similar?

 

[LordRogan]

Gotcha. Just pulling your leg you big Northern Monkey I'm from Devon originally so everywhere is Northern for me!

I probably listen to way too much Brulosophy looking for confirmation bias but I'm not a complete cowboy and, amongst other things, always check mash ph and dose with phosphoric where necessary. As I said though, I select my recipes with regard to the water rather than the other way round.

This request for a full run of a NEIPA has me scrambling as he wants that pillowy mouthfeel

I don't like the RO route. We had that in a commercial brewery I worked in in the US and it didn't suit my workflow.

I'm calling various French departments today trying to get an answer but so far have been passed around hither and thither.

Thanks for your input, much appreciated and I'll update if I get results!

Cheers

 

[Northern_Brewer]

So a port stout man then? Try telling forriners that some British yeasts give as much banana as the Hanlon's one though....

You'll have to get rid of those bad habits you've picked up Stateside, like using phosphoric.... It always amazed me that you used to be able to pick up concentrated hydrochloric in French supermarkets, they seem to have tightened up on that though.

I am genuinely surprised you're finding it so hard to get some numbers, this comes up regularly and people in the EU normally have no problems. Might be worth figuring out what company serves an adjacent area, to see if they publish numbers on their website to start getting in the ballpark?

I've family east of you and they're on pure limestone, but AIUI it gets chalkier over your way? In which case a London kind of profile probably isn't too far off - say 50ppm of both Cl and SO4 and 300ppm hardness as CaCO3 equivalents.

 

[fourfarthing]

I would cut the Epsom salt from one brew as a test. I have found that particular addition to have some negative flavor impacts at even very low quantities in some of my paler beers.

 

[LordRogan]

So a port stout man then? Try telling forriners that some British yeasts give as much banana as the Hanlon's one though....

You'll have to get rid of those bad habits you've picked up Stateside, like using phosphoric.... It always amazed me that you used to be able to pick up concentrated hydrochloric in French supermarkets, they seem to have tightened up on that though.

I am genuinely surprised you're finding it so hard to get some numbers, this comes up regularly and people in the EU normally have no problems. Might be worth figuring out what company serves an adjacent area, to see if they publish numbers on their website to start getting in the ballpark?

I've family east of you and they're on pure limestone, but AIUI it gets chalkier over your way? In which case a London kind of profile probably isn't too far off - say 50ppm of both Cl and SO4 and 300ppm hardness as CaCO3 equivalents.

I do make a wicked dry stout yes

so far I have gleaned the following:

ph 7.8
“Titre alcometrique” 9.8 f
Nitrites 0.03 mg/l
Sulfates 26 mg/l
Chloride 17 mg/l
Nitrates 6 mg/l
Organic carbon 0.9 mg/l
Couple of good bits of info there. Can any one better versed than me create a profile with just this info?!

Legends all.
JB

 

[Northern_Brewer]

One would have to assume that Titre alcometrique is hardness, even though I don't understand how they get there, I assume there's no alcohol in the water!

In which case one assumes that's French units of hardness which are one of the few sane ones, as they =10ppm of CaCO3 equivalent, so you have 98ppm CaCO3.

I guess you've got in the order of 30-50ppm calcium in there.

So actually not too bad at all - pH is quite high but at least you haven't got to soak up too much buffering power. Compare that with the tapwater at Shepherd Neame (they report the hardness separately, it's 287ppm CaCO3 equivalent) to get an idea of what your other numbers look like.

Should be enough to get you started with a water calculator - if you're to use phosphoric rather than hydrochloric or AMS/CRS to get your alkalinity down, then a bit of gypsum, bit more calcium chloride, splash of sodium chloride to get you up into the 150:75 Cl:SO4 kind of range as a starting point.

 

[LordRogan]

Awesomenessness!

That CaCo3 is going to be all important! Thanks!
Gonna continue my yank ways and acidify the sparge water with Phosphoric yes and will jump over to Bru n Water now and input what I have!

Can't believe we got there and thanks again!
New Franglais Pale Ale here we come!

Cheers.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Bière jolie (nouv'-eau)?

 

[LordRogan]

What the eck?

Bru n water is calculating my PPM CaCO3 as 365 ppm!?

View attachment 702201

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Pass - my normal brewing water is beautifully soft, so I've never really had to get too deep into the world of water calculators.

The Brew Science forum has become the de facto water board, so if you've got specific questions about B&W then that would be the best place to ask.