NEIPA dont’s

[couchsending]

I linked that post just as a reference for what happens to Ca throughout the process.

Treehouse beers have relatively low Ca content (I believe the one Tonsmeire tested was 38 ppm or so) but some of the other equally good beers I’ve had tested were closer to 80/85. If a finished beer has a ppm in that neighborhood it means quantities in the mash were probably considerably higher. But again that depends on the starting levels of bicarbonate and what not. If you are using RO water you might not need to go much higher than 50 ppm Ca in the mash. I don’t add Ca salts to sparge water anymore, I instead add them to the boil and just adjust sparge with acid to a certain pH.

 

[Shade]

Well, lots of fancy talk. I can relay one don't from my experience - don't toss your hops in loose then crash cool it without gelatine, then try to syphon it into your keg. My syphon got blocked several times, required disassembling to clear, only to block again, and in the end I crashed it again, added gelatine, still couldn't syphon it and did it using a tube that I sucked on to get it going.

How much oxygen got in? Maybe a little. It was a pain in the ass.

Another don't - if your LHBS doesn't have the right hops, subbing them out for a traditional west coast hop schedule will give you a west coast beer, just hazy and less bitter. Same beer.

But still, I had a commercial one today which was worse than my one so that's .. something.

 

[jturman35]

But still, I had a commercial one today which was worse than my one so that's .. something.

Seems like almost half the breweries out there have no business selling beer. Just my .02

 

[beervoid]

Well, lots of fancy talk. I can relay one don't from my experience - don't toss your hops in loose then crash cool it without gelatine, then try to syphon it into your keg. My syphon got blocked several times, required disassembling to clear, only to block again, and in the end I crashed it again, added gelatine, still couldn't syphon it and did it using a tube that I sucked on to get it going.

How much oxygen got in? Maybe a little. It was a pain in the ass.

Another don't - if your LHBS doesn't have the right hops, subbing them out for a traditional west coast hop schedule will give you a west coast beer, just hazy and less bitter. Same beer.

But still, I had a commercial one today which was worse than my one so that's .. something.

Invest in a DIY floating diptube. My clogging days are over ever since.

 

[beervoid]

Just reporting back here about DON'T use Wheat or Oats.

I've done 2 successful hazy beers with only pale malt and chit malt for some extra protein. No wheat or Oat and they came out beautifully hazy and stayed like that for at least 2 weeks.

I think it's a matter of how much hops you use on both hot and cold side in order to get that haze.

 

[kevink]

Just reporting back here about DON'T use Wheat or Oats.

I've done 2 successful hazy beers with only pale malt and chit malt for some extra protein. No wheat or Oat and they came out beautifully hazy and stayed like that for at least 2 weeks.

I think it's a matter of how much hops you use on both hot and cold side in order to get that haze.

This definitely isn't a "don't". Maybe it's a "you don't have to," but many, many NEIPAs have wheat and/or oats in them. I'd say it's actually much more of a "do" than a "don't".

 

[beervoid]

This definitely isn't a "don't". Maybe it's a "you don't have to," but many, many NEIPAs have wheat and/or oats in them. I'd say it's actually much more of a "do" than a "don't".

I figure the DO'S and DON'T'S are just anecdotal and giving food for thought.

I will have to brew a side by side comparison to see if it actually makes a difference in taste or mouthfeel.
It definitely makes a difference for mashing and it's cheaper as well.

I think if you don't go very high like 30% at least with wheats or oats it's very hard to tell the difference then why bother.

 

[plazola86]

Just reporting back here about DON'T use Wheat or Oats.

I've done 2 successful hazy beers with only pale malt and chit malt for some extra protein. No wheat or Oat and they came out beautifully hazy and stayed like that for at least 2 weeks.

I think it's a matter of how much hops you use on both hot and cold side in order to get that haze.

I use both but I'm more in the train of thought of head retention and formation from the proteins than the "haze" they give off. As I mentioned earlier in this thread IMHO the carbonation along with the head retention and formation (plus hop oils) have a huge contribution to mouthfeel.

 

[Dgallo]

This definitely isn't a "don't". Maybe it's a "you don't have to," but many, many NEIPAs have wheat and/or oats in them. I'd say it's actually much more of a "do" than a "don't".

Preach brother. Many folks are getting caught up with what a select few of breweries are doing in a few of their beers. The majority, even our upper echelon of NEIPA breweries are using some form of wheat in a good portion of their beers. The simple truth is that any high protein grain will do. I personally choose flaked wheat for mine because I like it’s head retention and impact on the mouthfeel.

 

[Zealous61]

Check your pre boil kettle PH when it’s full next time.

Please elaborate. In regards to what you consider optimum for this style of beer and how you would address a deviation.

 

[Zealous61]

I have pretty much stopped dry hppping during fermentation. Sometimes I’ll add a small 1-2oz addition at the very tail end of fermentation but most everything now is huge additions after fermentation has finished, yeast has been removed, and beer is around 60*. Aroma is insane and the Hop character is way more defined and bright. I feel like that 60ish temp is key too. Too warm and I think you get the sweaty/rotting character and too cold and you get too much green/chlorophyll character. 60-63 is awesome defined fruit.

I have found the same. I no longer dry hop beofre crashing. And I usually bring back up to 60ish.

 

[Zealous61]

I would disagree with the quality statement to a point. My sister dated someone who was head brewer for one of the AB High End breweries. I talked to him about hop selection a bunch. He said it was amazing the difference some times. Sometimes the same Hop was totally different even on the same farm and harvested the same day. I’ve brewed with a bunch of hops they’ve selected. Some were good, some were definitely different. Their mosaic especially.

All the in demand hops are grown all over the west now. Simcoe, Citra, Mosaic all started on one farm. Now they’re grown in 3 states. Not only does the terroir affect the hop but also the harvest date and even which plant they’re processed in. We’re they heated to much when they were pressed into pellets, etc.

The 2018 Amarillo and Columbus I got from YVH this year literally smells like a tire fire, they’re horrible.

From my experience the Australian hops tend to be pretty consistent and seem to be of almost the same quality as what the better breweries get. They’re always incredibly potent. From what I’ve read they have some of the most advanced hop processing equipment down there.

Really? I have 2018 Amarillo from YVH and it smells and tastes amazing.

 

[couchsending]

Really? I have 2018 Amarillo from YVH and it smells and tastes amazing.

I’m sure they have piles of different lots...no joke mine smells like burning rubber. It’s horrible

 

[beervoid]

I’m sure they have piles of different lots...no joke mine smells like burning rubber. It’s horrible

I've had the Mikeller Hop Terroir Series which had 2 single hop Amarillo NEIPA's. One with hops from Washington and one with hops from Germany... Now i'm generally unimpressed with Mikeller beers and these two beers where not that great..
Not sure if Amarillo can play the main role in a NEIPA.. The few times I've used it I got more floral notes from it then fruityness..

 

[thehaze]

Amarillo throws sweet tangerines and some light sweet, non-descript, tropical notes in the background. Depending on the terroir, how the hops were kept, etc. etc., you can also get grapefruit juice and grapefruit rind. But never got floral notes from it. I do get floral from something like Cascade.

 

[beervoid]

Amarillo throws sweet tangerines and some light sweet, non-descript, tropical notes in the background. Depending on the terroir, how the hops were kept, etc. etc., you can also get grapefruit juice and grapefruit rind. But never got floral notes from it. I do get floral from something like Cascade.

I guess light tropical and mandarine would be what I meant with floral. A light fruityness..
If it wasnt that expensive Id try it more

 

[Dgallo]

The only hops I’ve ever had a issue with were the 2016 citra coming off extremely catty/b.o. like and occasionally Columbus will have a onion garlic thing going on. Citra’s cattyness carried over to the beer, Columbus didn’t

 

[couchsending]

I've had the Mikeller Hop Terroir Series which had 2 single hop Amarillo NEIPA's. One with hops from Washington and one with hops from Germany... Now i'm generally unimpressed with Mikeller beers and these two beers where not that great..
Not sure if Amarillo can play the main role in a NEIPA.. The few times I've used it I got more floral notes from it then fruityness..

Oh it can.. depends on how good it is though.

 

[beervoid]

Oh it can.. depends on how good it is though.

View attachment 609035

Do Tree House have a centrifuge?
Im wondering if that is key to squeezing out max juicy hop oils out of the hops.

And if you have to rely on gravity perhaps you need more hops and more contact time resulting in lot of oils getting lost in the trub. Especially for less pungent low oil hop varieties.

 

[Dgallo]

perhaps you need more hops and more contact time resulting in lot of oils getting lost in the trub

I’m going to try to find you the article on oil extraction time frame. They studied different dryhop methods and contact times and then tested the oil contents of the beers. They definitively concluded that 80% of hop oils are extracted within the first 24-36 hours and did not detect any addition extraction after 96 hrs. Was an awesome read

 

[Northern_Brewer]

That 24 hours thing is for specific small molecules - heavier molecules will need longer and there's a general feeling that 3 days is a good time for full flavour development.

 

[beervoid]

I’m going to try to find you the article on oil extraction time frame. They studied different dryhop methods and contact times and then tested the oil contents of the beers. They definitively concluded that 80% of hop oils are extracted within the first 24-36 hours and did not detect any addition extraction after 96 hrs. Was an awesome read

Ive read something similar, the study was done with cascade and cones I believe and they also found certain oils to go down after a while.
I do think they where recirculating as well and they got full extraction in a few hours even.

 

[couchsending]

Do Tree House have a centrifuge?
Im wondering if that is key to squeezing out max juicy hop oils out of the hops.

And if you have to rely on gravity perhaps you need more hops and more contact time resulting in lot of oils getting lost in the trub. Especially for less pungent low oil hop varieties.

I have noIdea but based on what they paid for the new place the supplier probably threw one in for free.

I really don’t think a centrifuge will create different flavors but it has the ability to make more drinkable beer, quicker than say waiting for gravity and time to do it’s thing.

 

[Terpene]

Not sure if Amarillo can play the main role in a NEIPA..

Yes, it absolutely can. Henhouse Stoked on Amarillo is absolutely delicious. Single hop NEIPA-style pale ale. The Amarillo pops and it blends beautifully with their Conan strain.

Of course, hops are an ag product and subject to variation from crop to crop, year to year. So, YMMV. But, yes, it is possible -- Amarillo can carry the show.

 

[Apimyces]

Ive read something similar, the study was done with cascade and cones I believe and they also found certain oils to go down after a while.
I do think they where recirculating as well and they got full extraction in a few hours even.

Yes, there's almost certainly an important varietal component to this.

Also, aromas per dose. One trial with Cascade showed a peak dosage for citrus aroma, and that adding more hops actually decreased those flavors in favor of others. A question of solubility and volatility, I reckon, as well as some oils possibly able to mask others. That "optimal dose" for maximum citrus aroma/flavor is pretty much certain to very per cultivar.

 

[snarf7]

I ran into the same problem do to a miscalculation and added way too many bittering hops early in the boil, came out very bitter. I wound up siphoning off a 1 gal and replacing it with a blonde ale that I'd brewed at the same time. That helped a little but it was still pretty bitter. What I found really helped was giving it time to condition (even after 2-3 weeks it improved quite a bit) and then I dryhopped the **** out of it...mosaic + cascade and that really helped balance out the remaining bitterness. I carbed it a little higher than the usual range too and that also seemed to help. Food for thought...

 

[leesmith]

Yes, there's almost certainly an important varietal component to this.

Also, aromas per dose. One trial with Cascade showed a peak dosage for citrus aroma, and that adding more hops actually decreased those flavors in favor of others. A question of solubility and volatility, I reckon, as well as some oils possibly able to mask others. That "optimal dose" for maximum citrus aroma/flavor is pretty much certain to very per cultivar.

I think I know which study you refer to here.

I posted about it on another thread:
"Northeast" style IPA
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/index.php?posts/8508012/

I personally think that study was a bit flawed due to the use of that particular bag.

But I agree dry hop amount is directly related to the type of hop being used...and really also the intended outcome.

 

[Apimyces]

I think I know which study you refer to here.

I posted about it on another thread:
"Northeast" style IPA
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/index.php?posts/8508012/

I personally think that study was a bit flawed due to the use of that particular bag.

But I agree dry hop amount is directly related to the type of hop being used...and really also the intended outcome.

Yea, that's the one.

Mean values of overall hop aroma intensity (OHAI; black circles), Citrus (white circles) and Herbal/tea (gray circles) sensory attributes vs dry-hopping rate. Letters associated with the markers in the figure indicate statistically significant groupings (Tukey's HSD tests p-value < 0.05).



I'd be curious to know how tight that mesh is. Guess you'll just have to use their mesh bag yourself to know what results to expect.

 

[Dgallo]

Yea, that's the one.

Mean values of overall hop aroma intensity (OHAI; black circles), Citrus (white circles) and Herbal/tea (gray circles) sensory attributes vs dry-hopping rate. Letters associated with the markers in the figure indicate statistically significant groupings (Tukey's HSD tests p-value < 0.05).



I'd be curious to know how tight that mesh is. Guess you'll just have to use their mesh bag yourself to know what results to expect.

I totally agree with the finding from the article, matches up with what I’ve found through trial and error. But like @leesmith said, many flaws in the experience. The biggest flaw IMO was the fact that they filtered the beers post dryhop. That removes the gland rich material that stays in suspension with the polyphenols and proteins. In my eyes this completely invalidated the experiment since that is one of the purpose of dryhopping

 

[BrewRunning]

Wow, I just spent the better part of 3 hours reading this thread. Lots of great information here, thanks for all of those who are contributing. Has anyone tried anything new/different lately that they would like to share?