Negra Modelo

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If you have the ability, make some smaller (1-2 gallon) batches with different base malts and see which ones get you close to what you’re aiming for.

Not easily, I currently tend to do 2.5 gallon batches so I can turn them around faster and try new things, but my brew days are weekdays when my wife's at work, kid is at school, and I have enough meetings I can listen in on that I can brew while I "work from home". But it's why I do the "change just 1 ingredient" thing and otherwise brew recipes again and again. Being that lagers are new to me I've got a few changes to experiment with. I don't mind dropping any one of the 3 and trying again (corn, pilsner or Vienna malts), but it'd be nice to choose the right one the first time. So that the next brew I might tweak the hops instead for example.

 

[Witherby]

Not easily, I currently tend to do 2.5 gallon batches so I can turn them around faster and try new things, but my brew days are weekdays when my wife's at work, kid is at school, and I have enough meetings I can listen in on that I can brew while I "work from home". But it's why I do the "change just 1 ingredient" thing and otherwise brew recipes again and again. Being that lagers are new to me I've got a few changes to experiment with. I don't mind dropping any one of the 3 and trying again (corn, pilsner or Vienna malts), but it'd be nice to choose the right one the first time. So that the next brew I might tweak the hops instead for example.

I wouldn’t drop the corn since they say they use a non-malted cereal (someone above says it is rice). I think many people have claimed that these darker Mexican beers are the heirs of Vienna lager (and the 2008 BJCP guidelines list Negra Modelo as a style representative of Vienna lager) so Vienna malt might be tempting to use. Curious to see that on the Modelo website that they call it a Munich Dunkel style, so another reason to drop the Vienna and go with bland American pils malt, corn, and caramel malt(s).

 

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... so Vienna malt might be tempting to use ... so another reason to drop the Vienna ...

Like I said, not sure what to do LOL. Just hoping to get a step closer to the real thing. One of the 3 needs to go. Pils / Vienna / Corn.

 

[ghpeel]

In an effort to clone Modelo Negra, I used this recipe, which turned out to be too rich/malty to be considered a successful clone, but which was delicious none the less:

7lb Vienna
2lb Munich
1/2lb Aromatic
1/2lb Carabohemian
2oz Carafa Special II
Tettnanger for like 20 IBU
34-70 or Kolsch yeast

I made this about 3 times and it was great. The first version had about a pound of flaked corn and it was lighter in body than the next two batches which were the recipe above exactly.

 

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which turned out to be too rich/malty to be considered a successful clone

Thanks! Do you think it was the Munich perhaps? Maybe something else needed to cut the Vienna a little, or perhaps the brand of Vienna was a bit intense compared to others?

That you made it a few times says a lot. Hmm.

I think I'm seeing agaiin and again that if I try my brew again, out of the 3 main ingredients I used (pils, vienna, corn) that it's probably the pils that gave the flavor that, while still good, was not at all Negra Modelo like.

 

[Cammanron]

Looking for some help for my next attempt to copy this beer. My first recipe (slight rounding off):

44% Pilsner
33% Vienna
17% Flaked corn
2% Caravienne (said to be like Caramel 20)
2% Caramel 60
2% Carafa Special I (roughly chocolate malt)

Mash pH 5.4, minerals intentionally kept fairly low overall, with a roughly 1:1 ratio

16 IBU Hallertau at boil
9 IBU Tettnanger at -10min

WLP940 White Labs Mexican Lager yeast

In a side-by-side taste test, I noticed that the Negra Modelo was far maltier, I'd call it sweeter, and fruitier perhaps as well. They were not a lot alike other than the color. My beer was a quite yummy beer, but I'd say it was much grainier tasting, and not at all sweet. I don't care for sweet beer but I'd like to push it a little closer to the real thing.

Recommendations for the next round to make it closer? I'm all ears. I have some ideas in mind but maybe I'll stop here for the moment.

Mash at 5-10 degrees F warmer...

 

[ghpeel]

Thanks! Do you think it was the Munich perhaps? Maybe something else needed to cut the Vienna a little, or perhaps the brand of Vienna was a bit intense compared to others?

That you made it a few times says a lot. Hmm.

Honestly I think using all malt with no adjuncts is why it was more rich/malty than an actual Modelo Negra. The first version I did which had flaked corn was closer to the Negra, but as soon as I tasted the all malt version, I decided I liked my recipe way better than Negra anyway so I didn't bother circling back to even try to make it more like Modelo's.

If I was going to try to turn my recipe to be more like the actual Modelo one then I'd do something like swapping out some of the base for flaked corn or even rice, cutting the cara & aromatic in half, and probably using Mexican Lager yeast.

 

[Beernik]

I don’t know how accurate it is, but Clone Brews has it as:
78.5% Pilsner Malt
15.2% Vienna Malt
5.1% 60L Crystal Malt
1.3% Chocolate Malt

The mash is:
122F for 30 min
150F for 60 min

IBU = 27 with 1oz Hallertau & 1oz Tettnanger for 50 minutes & 0.5oz Tennanger for 10 minutes.

Yeast is Wyeast 2124 or 2206.

 

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Thanks for the recipe but it's hard to believe it's a clone, at least it isn't using the same ingredients. Their site mentions 2 and 6 row, for starters, so it almost throws the whole pils / vienna / corn thing out the window altogether.

Next time I brew it I'm dropping the pils, will see how it changes things. It'll be a while though, half half a dozen other things I want to brew next.

 

[Beernik]

“2 row” is pretty generic. Technically, all the grains are 2-row except for the 6-row.

It’s almost as generic as saying, “hops.”

6-row is weird if it isn’t heavily adjuncted.

 

[Drewch]

Everyone is talking a lot about Vienna malt, but Modelo's website calls Negra a "Munich Dunkel-style Lager" with "slow roasted caramel malts". Would it make more sense to start with Munich malt as your base and work in some caramel malts?

 

[duelerx]

There is a misconception from some homebrewers and BJCP cloning it as a Vienna lager, since its inception Modelo has always been sold as Munich Dunkel. Their Mexican Vienna is the Modelo Ambar. I would say Negra Modelo is more akin to a Mexican Dunkel than a German Munich Dunkel.

Also Bohemia Noche Buena is highly underated.

 

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So, a Munich Dunkel (or, I assume, any Dunkel) would be primarily Munich malt, right? I've never made such a beer, but I can "picture" it.

Maybe I should be forgetting about Pils vs. Vienna and be thinking Munich instead? Hmm. Interesting plot twist.

 

[duelerx]

So, a Munich Dunkel (or, I assume, any Dunkel) would be primarily Munich malt, right? I've never made such a beer, but I can "picture" it.

Maybe I should be forgetting about Pils vs. Vienna and be thinking Munich instead? Hmm. Interesting plot twist.

I agree it's interesting, seems key notes from Modelo it has galena, super galena (must be extract), caramel malt, dark malt, two row and six row. I think it's a Mexican Dunkel as Shiner Bock is an American Bock.

Vienna lagers in Mexico varies between breweries as XX Ámbar or Indio, Tecate not so long ago released Tecate Ámbar, flavor profile wise it taste as an American lager with coloring. If you want a real tasty Mexican Vienna clone Bohemia Vienna.

 

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I was starting to theorize 2-row was the Munich ( I suppose it *is* 2-row, just not what we homebrewers typically refer to as such). And 6-row perhaps to sort of ensure conversion, if they didn't think mostly Munich could do the job, or not sufficiently enough for them? Perhaps then some C40 or C60, and a pinch of chocolate being the rest of the listed ingredients?

I was going to use Galena, but it's high AA, and I wanted to have some hops later in the boil so I went w/ the lower AA options.

 

[Beernik]

Munich malts are one of those it’s worthwhile to look up and run the calc. Some will self-convert, some won’t.

CaraMunich definitely won’t self-convert.

 

[ghpeel]

I think I read once that CaraMunich is not as sweet as a pure Crystal Malt of the same color, but also as Beernik says, its definitely not appropriate for a base malt.

 

[FLJohnson]

Looking up info which may be direct from the brewery (?) they use 2 row, 6 row, caramel and black malts with Galena and Super Galena hops.

The brewery website (https://www.modelousa.com/pages/story-foundersnegra) does confirm this statement. And another page on the website (https://www.modelousa.com/products/negra) states, "Modelo Negra contains Water, Barley Malt, Non-malted Cereals and Hops," giving credence to Modelo's probable use of corn or rice or both in the Negra recipe.

Why have folks not been including Galena and Super Galena in their clone attempts?

I'm so glad Modelo included "water" in their divulgence of the ingredients in their Negra recipe.

 

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What makes you think this information is coming directly (or even indirectly) from the brewery?

Because it's on their website.

https://www.modelousa.com/pages/story-foundersnegra

First brewed in Tacuba, Mexico in 1925, Modelo Negra, formerly Negra Modelo, is a medium-bodied lager with slow-roasted caramel malts brewed for a rich, smooth taste. Brewed longer to enhance its flavors, Modelo Negra redefines "Dark Beer" because it is exceptionally drinkable and remarkably smooth. This Munich Dunkel-style Lager is brewed with galena and super galena hops as well as caramel malt, black malt and two and six row malt barley. These ingredients are meticulously brewed together to give Modelo Negra that bright, rich, amber hue and that iconic, medium-bodied flavor.

 

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Why have folks not been including Galena and Super Galena in their clone attempts?

Haha I see you edited your post after you found the info as well.

I haven't used Galena because whenever I've found it, it's really high AA, and so I kind of figured I'd be using very little of it in the boil and not getting hardly any flavor between the small amount plus the boil time itself. Adding it later for some flavor just felt like a gamble, accidentally not get my chiller hooked up or get distracted for a few minutes with my kid and suddenly my 10 minute addition for flavor just gave me 30 extra IBU's. I'm exaggerating of course but at mid to high double digit AA's I've been playing it safe with other hops.

All that said I would be interested to try it.

 

[duelerx]

Haha I see you edited your post after you found the info as well.

I haven't used Galena because whenever I've found it, it's really high AA, and so I kind of figured I'd be using very little of it in the boil and not getting hardly any flavor between the small amount plus the boil time itself. Adding it later for some flavor just felt like a gamble, accidentally not get my chiller hooked up or get distracted for a few minutes with my kid and suddenly my 10 minute addition for flavor just gave me 30 extra IBU's. I'm exaggerating of course but at mid to high double digit AA's I've been playing it safe with other hops.

All that said I would be interested to try it.

I do drink Modelo Especial once in a while in Mexico, and I can confirm the bitterness is higher than Tecate, Corona, or Pacifico, maybe because Galena?. It is a little lower than a Heineken and less aroma than a Bohemia Pilsner, I say Bohemia Pilsner has the highest hops aroma of the bunch. I can also say some of Negra Modelo bitterness comes a little bit from roasted malts.

 

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I thought I'd follow up on this. I brewed a version that was just under 80% Vienna malt (Briess 3.5L) and 20% corn, with a pinch each of C40, C60 and Chocolate. I think once again a made a delicious beer I really liked, but side-by-side with the real thing my mostly Vianna lager was still a bit grainy and less malty / fruity.

I'm looking at it for my next brew, and am considering moving to light Munich (Briess Litehouse, 6L) to replace the Vienna. I keep saying I'm not trying to clone it, maybe so I'm not disappointed, but have to admit that it seems like I actually am.

I'm may go off course a bit too and throw some Motueka hops in at the end to see if I can build in a bit of lime flavor. With the bulk of the hops being Saaz, which seems to work well. The Galena high AA is making me nervous, though I could add it super late or as a whirlpool hop. And yeah I'm here describing totally different hops at the same time as I say I'm kind of trying to clone it. Sigh.

 

[Jag75]

Have you tried doing a decoction mash?

 

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No, but that's an interesting idea. Would prefer to do it w/ a "normal" process but I could see how that could be a missing touch.

 

[Jag75]

I believe that Modelo Negra is done Munich Dunkel style, which is a decoction mash. Thats what I read , if im remembering correctly.

 

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I believe they do call it a Munich Dunkel themselves. Others have said no it's a Vienna lager, and others have said it's its own thing and not quite either.

The light Briess Munich is only 6L, so I'll put that in for the majority of the grain the next time, it's not really that dark. With a half pound 6-row "just in case" for conversion, Briess says you can use their light Munich 100% but I'll have about 15% flaked corn and that might be getting risky.