Negra Modelo

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Looking for some help for my next attempt to copy this beer. My first recipe (slight rounding off):

44% Pilsner
33% Vienna
17% Flaked corn
2% Caravienne (said to be like Caramel 20)
2% Caramel 60
2% Carafa Special I (roughly chocolate malt)

Mash pH 5.4, minerals intentionally kept fairly low overall, with a roughly 1:1 ratio

16 IBU Hallertau at boil
9 IBU Tettnanger at -10min

WLP940 White Labs Mexican Lager yeast

In a side-by-side taste test, I noticed that the Negra Modelo was far maltier, I'd call it sweeter, and fruitier perhaps as well. They were not a lot alike other than the color. My beer was a quite yummy beer, but I'd say it was much grainier tasting, and not at all sweet. I don't care for sweet beer but I'd like to push it a little closer to the real thing.

Recommendations for the next round to make it closer? I'm all ears. I have some ideas in mind but maybe I'll stop here for the moment.

 

[lumpher]

I'd drop the corn, and replace it with Pilsner. I'd bet that's what's causing the graininess. I'd also change the Caravienne and C60 to just 4 oz C60. Maybe a dash of Chocolate Malt, also.

 

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Interesting! I had expected the corn to be somewhat invisible, and thought I might actually need to add more of it. I had been thinking the Vienna might be the grainy factor and I'd lower it instead.

I'll have to research and consider this.

 

[Jag75]

Interesting! I had expected the corn to be somewhat invisible, and thought I might actually need to add more of it. I had been thinking the Vienna might be the grainy factor and I'd lower it instead.

I'll have to research and consider this.

I've seen a few recipes for the modelo negra, and noticed they didn't use corn .

 

[DBhomebrew]

Weikert's take has quite a bit of corn.

https://beerandbrewing.com/amp/make-your-best-mexican-lager/

 

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My "grainy" flavor might also be described as toasty? I don't know if I'm changing it because I think it's the Vienna doing it, or if it's simply a better description. I didn't make a bad beer in the slightest but it's certainly not what I was aiming for. I think some of the Negra Modelo flavor was present, but it was masked.

Looking up info which may be direct from the brewery (?) they use 2 row, 6 row, caramel and black malts with Galena and Super Galena hops.

It'd be nice to get closer without a total do-over. Remove some graininess and impart some fruity sweetness, even if just part-ways there.

 

[lumpher]

You are using quite a bit of Vienna in that recipe. Maybe more like this:

8 lbs pils
Max of 1.5 lbs Vienna
4 oz C60
2 oz Chocolate (for color)
Tettnang and Hallertau for bittering, maybe 3 oz combined
WLP940 Yeast

Very simple recipe, but should come close

 

[MaxStout]

My "grainy" flavor might also be described as toasty? I don't know if I'm changing it because I think it's the Vienna doing it, or if it's simply a better description. I didn't make a bad beer in the slightest but it's certainly not what I was aiming for. I think some of the Negra Modelo flavor was present, but it was masked.

Looking up info which may be direct from the brewery (?) they use 2 row, 6 row, caramel and black malts with Galena and Super Galena hops.

It'd be nice to get closer without a total do-over. Remove some graininess and impart some fruity sweetness, even if just part-ways there.

Interesting that they use some 6-row. That's generally used in mashes with lots of adjuncts. Perhaps Modelo just finds it cheaper to use, or that's what's available in the area.

I looked up the recipe I used to make one several years ago. Don't recall how close it was to the original, but I seemed to have enjoyed it. Mostly 2-row, some Vienna, about 4% Crystal 60, and a bit of Carafa III. Used Hallertauer and Tettnang, and pitched Wyeast 2124 Bohemian Lager. I don't have notes saying where I got the recipe, but it's probably some variant of a Vienna lager, as Negra Modelo is likely derivative of that style.

 

[camonick]

Take a look at the 2 Vienna lager recipes here.
I have personally made the Geburtstagsparty version several times and actually have a batch ready to keg right now. I’ve done a side by side tasting and find it almost identical. I used liquid Imperial Harvest yeast on the first few and the current version is with dry Diamond… just because that’s what I had on hand.

Edit:
This recipe earned me a 3rd place medal at the 2022 Rocky Mountain Homebrew Challenge.

 

[camonick]

It'd be nice to get closer without a total do-over. Remove some graininess and impart some fruity sweetness, even if just part-ways there.

I didn’t notice this response in your 3rd post.
The Fiesta Cumpleaños version is closer to your original recipe without a “total do-over”

 

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I really appreciate everyone's inputs.

I'll have to nibble on some Vienna, make a tea with it or something. Very different suggestions here - use less, or go almost all in.

I didn’t notice this response in your 3rd post.
The Fiesta Cumpleaños version is closer to your original recipe without a “total do-over”

Well... I like to do iterative changes to learn what the ingredients do. But if a big change goes from "not close" to "very close" and wins a medal then I'll have to consider it!

 

[Jag75]

Weikert's take has quite a bit of corn.

https://beerandbrewing.com/amp/make-your-best-mexican-lager/

I believe this is pale lager. Op is brewing a negra

 

[Mutant]

Looking for some help for my next attempt to copy this beer. My first recipe (slight rounding off):

44% Pilsner
33% Vienna
17% Flaked corn
2% Caravienne (said to be like Caramel 20)
2% Caramel 60
2% Carafa Special I (roughly chocolate malt)

Mash pH 5.4, minerals intentionally kept fairly low overall, with a roughly 1:1 ratio

16 IBU Hallertau at boil
9 IBU Tettnanger at -10min

WLP940 White Labs Mexican Lager yeast

In a side-by-side taste test, I noticed that the Negra Modelo was far maltier, I'd call it sweeter, and fruitier perhaps as well. They were not a lot alike other than the color. My beer was a quite yummy beer, but I'd say it was much grainier tasting, and not at all sweet. I don't care for sweet beer but I'd like to push it a little closer to the real thing.

Recommendations for the next round to make it closer? I'm all ears. I have some ideas in mind but maybe I'll stop here for the moment.

Mash temperatures and times will impact sweet/dry and thick/thinness

 

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Mash temperatures and times will impact sweet/dry and thick/thinness

True, good reminder, but not nearly the extent of the differences here.

I'm struggling to decide if it's the Vienna or the corn that are giving mine the (very) grainy aspect. Reducing or removing it is my main goal at the moment. It seems that neither should be doing it so it's a bit confusing which way to go. I'm leaning towards eliminating the corn and going with additional Vienna, given the recipes I'm seeing.

 

[Mutant]

True, good reminder, but not nearly the extent of the differences here.

I'm struggling to decide if it's the Vienna or the corn that are giving mine the (very) grainy aspect. Reducing or removing it is my main goal at the moment. It seems that neither should be doing it so it's a bit confusing which way to go. I'm leaning towards eliminating the corn and going with additional Vienna, given the recipes I'm seeing.

Understood. I was just focused on the comment about sweetness. Corn is likely the grainy issue. Modelo Negro is a very nice beer, but it has also been wrapped up in the 'Bud Light' saga. Publishing the mash temps and times can help with understanding the process more thoroughly.

 

[Mutant]

True, good reminder, but not nearly the extent of the differences here.

I'm struggling to decide if it's the Vienna or the corn that are giving mine the (very) grainy aspect. Reducing or removing it is my main goal at the moment. It seems that neither should be doing it so it's a bit confusing which way to go. I'm leaning towards eliminating the corn and going with additional Vienna, given the recipes I'm seeing.

Another thought is how long has the beer been lagering. Is the lagering in a keg, or ??? If it hasn't lagered enough, it can be "green" and grainy.

 

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I was playing around with the mash, 148 a half hour, then 152 a half hour, then lastly 156 a half hour.

It fermented low 50's (51 - 52) for a few days then slowly ramped up to the upper 60's over the next week and held there another week. At about the 1 month mark it went into a keg in a cold basement and sat another month or so. It's been in the frig in the keg of course for a little over a month now. All total I made it just over 3 months ago. I've seen it change some, a tiny bit of sulphur smell has gone away, a little of the hoppiness has faded (it wasn't ever strong to start with). The graininess is ever-present.

Good questions, I do know the little things have an effect that adds up. I am still thinking the biggest contributor is one of those 3 "base" malts (pils / Vienna / Corn). And to be clear it's a pretty good beer, I'd have happily made it again, but given the side-by-side I'm realizing I'd like to have the next one get closer to the real thing. I also admit I very much love tinkering and changing an ingredient to see what it does.

 

[z-bob]

If you're trying to actually make a clone, I think Modelo Negra uses rice instead of corn for the adjunct. Other than that your grist looks good. (and it looks good with the corn ) I also read somewhere that they use Galena hops.

 

[Mutant]

I was playing around with the mash, 148 a half hour, then 152 a half hour, then lastly 156 a half hour.

It fermented low 50's (51 - 52) for a few days then slowly ramped up to the upper 60's over the next week and held there another week. At about the 1 month mark it went into a keg in a cold basement and sat another month or so. It's been in the frig in the keg of course for a little over a month now. All total I made it just over 3 months ago. I've seen it change some, a tiny bit of sulphur smell has gone away, a little of the hoppiness has faded (it wasn't ever strong to start with). The graininess is ever-present.

Good questions, I do know the little things have an effect that adds up. I am still thinking the biggest contributor is one of those 3 "base" malts (pils / Vienna / Corn). And to be clear it's a pretty good beer, I'd have happily made it again, but given the side-by-side I'm realizing I'd like to have the next one get closer to the real thing. I also admit I very much love tinkering and changing an ingredient to see what it does.

One other thought is whether the grain was too finely milled. I'd just let it lager longer and see how that helps. Today I am actually brewing 13.2 gallons of a 'Light American Lager'. I'm trying to entice graininess by extended mash times and only a touch of 6-row grain. I will not know the results until late July or early August.

 

[camonick]

One other thought is whether the grain was too finely milled

Can you explain this? This is the first I’ve ever heard such a thing. BIAB brewers, myself included, often mill our grain to nearly flour.

 

[Mutant]

Can you explain this? This is the first I’ve ever heard such a thing. BIAB brewers, myself included, often mill our grain to nearly flour.

Let me do some research. It often comes up with off-flavors/issues. I'll see if I can find a reference.

 

[Mutant]

Can you explain this? This is the first I’ve ever heard such a thing. BIAB brewers, myself included, often mill our grain to nearly flour.

Here is one reference that I found. You might be able to find other references that better explain it. 18 Common Off Flavors In Beer (And How They're Caused)

 

[hottpeper13]

Most of the time I here grainy flavor it is associated with Pils malt. To get the maltiness your looking for I use mostly Vienna malt and 1/4 tps Brew tan B in the mash. I don't do full on LODO but practice best procedures to eliminate HSA and that has brought the maltiness up front. As a note the one beer I put the brew tan B in both the mash and boil The beer tasted like I used double the honey malt and was almost cloying even thou It finished at 1.010

 

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Most of the time I here grainy flavor it is associated with Pils malt. To get the maltiness your looking for I use mostly Vienna malt and 1/4 tps Brew tan B in the mash. I don't do full on LODO but practice best procedures to eliminate HSA and that has brought the maltiness up front. As a note the one beer I put the brew tan B in both the mash and boil The beer tasted like I used double the honey malt and was almost cloying even thou It finished at 1.010

I'm starting to think that as well. I've gone from thinking it's the Vienna, to the corn, and now quite possibly the pilsner malt.

I guess there's a chance the LHBS put the wrong stuff in the bin. Probably not, but I don't remember if I paid attention that day. I mentioned already it's a good beer but it's certainly not the same (it's more like I made it with a bunch of English Pale malt). I was scared of using too much Vienna but now that I see recipes with it being nearly 100% I am starting to rethink that idea.

 

[Jag75]

It very well could be the pilsner. I don't use pilsner in my Mexican lager . I use vienna , corn , 2 row and carravienna. I don't get a grainy taste . When you drink pilsners do you kind of get that grainyness ?

 

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It very well could be the pilsner. I don't use pilsner in my Mexican lager . I use vienna , corn , 2 row and carravienna. I don't get a grainy taste . When you drink pilsners do you kind of get that grainyness ?

That's a good question I didn't think to ask myself. I'm going to have to pay more attention next time. I don't have lagers often, of any type. I want to say yes, not super grainy, but yes to it being there. Interesting...

We're headed out for dinner tonight, if they sell beer I'll have one or at least something in that neighborhood. Need to sneak some homebrew in for a side-by-side haha.

 

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Yeah, so, had a "Normal" Modelo tonight, and it had tons of the grain taste I'm getting from my Negra Modelo inspired recipe. The normal Modelo is a tasty beer on its own but full of the flavor that I'm trying to get rid of in my Negra version.

So, it's probably that easy, the pilsner doesn't belong in the Negra Modelo. Funny how many "clone" recipes out there use a lot of it. Can't believe everything you read. I'll be taking it out and going with a lot more Vienna it seems.

 

[Witherby]

I had a draft Negra Modelo at a Mexican restaurant tonight but they served it with a wedge of lime and that overwhelmed the flavor.

This is not a craft beer. It is a macro lager. I am shocked that this beer is anything more than a pale lager with adjuncts and caramel coloring, but they do claim to use “slow roasted caramel malts” in addition to “barley malt and non-malted cereals.”

As for using Vienna malt, there is a very interesting comment in Greg Noonan’s New Brewing Lager Beer (1996 2nd edition):
“Vienna and Munich malts…are made from inferior or high protein barley, because maltsters expect them to be used only in small (5 to 15 percent) portions of the malt bill.”

We’re you using German malt? Or American Vienna malt? Either way it seems very unlikely this beer is made with 33% Vienna. And if you used German malts they will be more flavorful than the malts this beer is probably made from.

 

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I had a draft Negra Modelo at a Mexican restaurant tonight but they served it with a wedge of lime and that overwhelmed the flavor.

This is not a craft beer. It is a macro lager. I am shocked that this beer is anything more than a pale lager with adjuncts and caramel coloring, but they do claim to use “slow roasted caramel malts” in addition to “barley malt and non-malted cereals.”

As for using Vienna malt, there is a very interesting comment in Greg Noonan’s New Brewing Lager Beer (1996 2nd edition):
“Vienna and Munich malts…are made from inferior or high protein barley, because maltsters expect them to be used only in small (5 to 15 percent) portions of the malt bill.”

We’re you using German malt? Or American Vienna malt? Either way it seems very unlikely this beer is made with 33% Vienna. And if you used German malts they will be more flavorful than the malts this beer is probably made from.

I mentioned earlier that I copied (from a source I trusted at the time, but forget where it was) that they use 2 row, 6 row, caramel and black malts with Galena and Super Galena hops.

So my recipe isn't a clone at all but does get some of the same flavors, somehow. I'm not totally dedicated to cloning it but would like to brew something similar.

I don't recall the brand of the various malts. I usually write them down on my shopping list and transfer those notes to my electronic recipe but did not do that this time unfortunately.

I've been brewing off and on for decades, and really got back into it a few years ago. All that time I only brewed ales, this was my first lager ever, so I'm a newb with pilsner and Vienna malts as well as corn.

As mentioned I don't need to clone it, but I'd like to get a step closer than the last round. I guess I'm still unsure if I should drop the pilsner, Vienna or the corn. Seems like every time I decide, I end up second guessing and changing my mind.

 

[camonick]

As mentioned I don't need to clone it, but I'd like to get a step closer than the last round. I guess I'm still unsure if I should drop the pilsner, Vienna or the corn. Seems like every time I decide, I end up second guessing and changing my mind.

If you have the ability, make some smaller (1-2 gallon) batches with different base malts and see which ones get you close to what you’re aiming for.

 

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If you have the ability, make some smaller (1-2 gallon) batches with different base malts and see which ones get you close to what you’re aiming for.

Not easily, I currently tend to do 2.5 gallon batches so I can turn them around faster and try new things, but my brew days are weekdays when my wife's at work, kid is at school, and I have enough meetings I can listen in on that I can brew while I "work from home". But it's why I do the "change just 1 ingredient" thing and otherwise brew recipes again and again. Being that lagers are new to me I've got a few changes to experiment with. I don't mind dropping any one of the 3 and trying again (corn, pilsner or Vienna malts), but it'd be nice to choose the right one the first time. So that the next brew I might tweak the hops instead for example.

 

[Witherby]

Not easily, I currently tend to do 2.5 gallon batches so I can turn them around faster and try new things, but my brew days are weekdays when my wife's at work, kid is at school, and I have enough meetings I can listen in on that I can brew while I "work from home". But it's why I do the "change just 1 ingredient" thing and otherwise brew recipes again and again. Being that lagers are new to me I've got a few changes to experiment with. I don't mind dropping any one of the 3 and trying again (corn, pilsner or Vienna malts), but it'd be nice to choose the right one the first time. So that the next brew I might tweak the hops instead for example.

I wouldn’t drop the corn since they say they use a non-malted cereal (someone above says it is rice). I think many people have claimed that these darker Mexican beers are the heirs of Vienna lager (and the 2008 BJCP guidelines list Negra Modelo as a style representative of Vienna lager) so Vienna malt might be tempting to use. Curious to see that on the Modelo website that they call it a Munich Dunkel style, so another reason to drop the Vienna and go with bland American pils malt, corn, and caramel malt(s).

 

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... so Vienna malt might be tempting to use ... so another reason to drop the Vienna ...

Like I said, not sure what to do LOL. Just hoping to get a step closer to the real thing. One of the 3 needs to go. Pils / Vienna / Corn.

 

[ghpeel]

In an effort to clone Modelo Negra, I used this recipe, which turned out to be too rich/malty to be considered a successful clone, but which was delicious none the less:

7lb Vienna
2lb Munich
1/2lb Aromatic
1/2lb Carabohemian
2oz Carafa Special II
Tettnanger for like 20 IBU
34-70 or Kolsch yeast

I made this about 3 times and it was great. The first version had about a pound of flaked corn and it was lighter in body than the next two batches which were the recipe above exactly.

 

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which turned out to be too rich/malty to be considered a successful clone

Thanks! Do you think it was the Munich perhaps? Maybe something else needed to cut the Vienna a little, or perhaps the brand of Vienna was a bit intense compared to others?

That you made it a few times says a lot. Hmm.

I think I'm seeing agaiin and again that if I try my brew again, out of the 3 main ingredients I used (pils, vienna, corn) that it's probably the pils that gave the flavor that, while still good, was not at all Negra Modelo like.

 

[Cammanron]

Looking for some help for my next attempt to copy this beer. My first recipe (slight rounding off):

44% Pilsner
33% Vienna
17% Flaked corn
2% Caravienne (said to be like Caramel 20)
2% Caramel 60
2% Carafa Special I (roughly chocolate malt)

Mash pH 5.4, minerals intentionally kept fairly low overall, with a roughly 1:1 ratio

16 IBU Hallertau at boil
9 IBU Tettnanger at -10min

WLP940 White Labs Mexican Lager yeast

In a side-by-side taste test, I noticed that the Negra Modelo was far maltier, I'd call it sweeter, and fruitier perhaps as well. They were not a lot alike other than the color. My beer was a quite yummy beer, but I'd say it was much grainier tasting, and not at all sweet. I don't care for sweet beer but I'd like to push it a little closer to the real thing.

Recommendations for the next round to make it closer? I'm all ears. I have some ideas in mind but maybe I'll stop here for the moment.

Mash at 5-10 degrees F warmer...

 

[ghpeel]

Thanks! Do you think it was the Munich perhaps? Maybe something else needed to cut the Vienna a little, or perhaps the brand of Vienna was a bit intense compared to others?

That you made it a few times says a lot. Hmm.

Honestly I think using all malt with no adjuncts is why it was more rich/malty than an actual Modelo Negra. The first version I did which had flaked corn was closer to the Negra, but as soon as I tasted the all malt version, I decided I liked my recipe way better than Negra anyway so I didn't bother circling back to even try to make it more like Modelo's.

If I was going to try to turn my recipe to be more like the actual Modelo one then I'd do something like swapping out some of the base for flaked corn or even rice, cutting the cara & aromatic in half, and probably using Mexican Lager yeast.

 

[Beernik]

I don’t know how accurate it is, but Clone Brews has it as:
78.5% Pilsner Malt
15.2% Vienna Malt
5.1% 60L Crystal Malt
1.3% Chocolate Malt

The mash is:
122F for 30 min
150F for 60 min

IBU = 27 with 1oz Hallertau & 1oz Tettnanger for 50 minutes & 0.5oz Tennanger for 10 minutes.

Yeast is Wyeast 2124 or 2206.

 

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Thanks for the recipe but it's hard to believe it's a clone, at least it isn't using the same ingredients. Their site mentions 2 and 6 row, for starters, so it almost throws the whole pils / vienna / corn thing out the window altogether.

Next time I brew it I'm dropping the pils, will see how it changes things. It'll be a while though, half half a dozen other things I want to brew next.

 

[Beernik]

“2 row” is pretty generic. Technically, all the grains are 2-row except for the 6-row.

It’s almost as generic as saying, “hops.”

6-row is weird if it isn’t heavily adjuncted.