Need help on Saison recipe

[myndflyte]

The latest basicbrewing video has inspired me to make a saison. Their recipe for a 5 gallon batch is as follows:

3.3 lbs Bavarian wheat LME
3.3 lbs Goldpils Vienna LME
16 oz Belgian Candi Syrup

2 oz Mandarina Bavaria for 15 min

3711 yeast (this is what I'm going to use)

I had a few thoughts on this recipe and would like your thoughts. I'm looking for something that's dry, crisp, and a little bit of a peppery spice. What sort of flavor would rye LME impart to this? And if I were to sub in rye LME, which LME would you sub it for?

 

[thehaze]

Rye works well in saisons and hoppy beers, so you could easily swap the Wheat for the Rye. The flavours it brings are somewhat spicy and delivers a sort of dryness to the beer, which is welcomed in hoppy beers.

Have you brewed with Rye before?

Is this your first saision? If yes, do you have an idea what to expect, in terms of aroma and flavour?

I like the yeast and hops choice.

 

[myndflyte]

Rye works well in saisons and hoppy beers, so you could easily swap the Wheat for the Rye. The flavours it brings are somewhat spicy and delivers a sort of dryness to the beer, which is welcomed in hoppy beers.

Have you brewed with Rye before?

Is this your first saision? If yes, do you have an idea what to expect, in terms of aroma and flavour?

I like the yeast and hops choice.

This is my first time brewing one, not the first time I drank one so I don't know exactly what to expect except how they described it here:
My real goal is to turn this into my house saison that I have on tap all the time and is super easy and quick to make.

 

[SoCal-Doug]

It's kinda hard to screw up a Saison because they are all about the yeast. The history of the Farmhouse Ale was basically "whatever they had". As long as its crispy dry, not overhopped, refreshing and the yeast shines through, it should be fine. The sugar-boosting is more an American thing to bump the ABV and give a perceived dryness. I'm a traditionalist and let the grains to the work and keep my Saison's more sessionable. However, with extracts where you can't control the mash temp, the sugar is probably a wise choice. I'm not a fan of rye in a Saison, but everyone's tastes are different. Try it! That's what this hobby is all about.

I alternate between 3711 and cultured dregs from Saison Dupont. The 3711 is not as "funky" or "dank" as some yeasts, but it will attenuate way down (plan on a terminal gravity of 1.000 to 1.003), doesn't get stuck, has good flavors, and some say it can ferment distilled water and old gym shirts. I recommend you ignore the trends and standards and ferment it hot (mid 80's at least) for best Saison flavors.

For "peppery" I've tried a couple Saison's that used coriander (like a Wit) and they were pretty good. Others had a bit of ginger. Your options are unlimited.

 

[myndflyte]

@SoCal-Doug Thanks for the input. I'm actually reading Farmhouse Ales by Phil Markowski right now so I'm learning all about saisons. I think I'm just going to brew it as it to get a baseline taste profile and adjust from there. So many options and not enough time to brew them all.

 

[thehaze]

If you like how this turns out, next time you can try different base malts in order to see for yourself, what you actually like in terms of malt flavours.

There are also many different saison/farmhouse yeasts you can try. One of my favourites is Wyeast 3726. I love the yeast profile on it.

 

[myndflyte]

One more question. When fermenting in the mid 80's, do you usually start lower (say mid 60's) and let it rise naturally or actually apply heat? And do you bring it up to 80 after fermentation is going for a little bit to prevent fusel alcohol or does the strain just not produce it even at those higher temps?

Ok, one more question. If I'm using 3711, should I make a starter like I normally do or just pitch it in there and let it stress a bit to produce those esters?

 

[thehaze]

For belgian styled beers, I usually cool my wort to 65F ( 18C ) and I pitch the yeast.

I usually let the temp. rise from the get go and then warm it up some more towards the end in order to force the yeast to finish and clean after itself.

I also underpitch, in order to get more esters out of the yeast.

I know this is not much, but I once - out of ignorance / when I started brewing - I fermented a nice, malty Belgian Dubbel using T-58 ( which on its own is not a very belgian yeast - lacks phenols and esters, but ferments fast and clean, good attenuation and sedimentation in the bottle ) at 60-62 F in a cooler garage.

That beer was bad, and I could not drink it. After that, I fermented T-58 and other belgian strains warm. Much better results, at least for my taste.

Regarding direct pitching: For a 1.050 beer, a fresh smack pack would suffice. And you are probably underpitching, which would be desirable.

 

[Jayjay1976]

Consider pitching both 3711 French and 3724 Belgian Saison yeasts; the combination produces lots of farmhouse flavors thanks to the 3724, and the 3711 will ensure your fermentation doesn't stall out as the Belgian strain can be prone to. Mine finished totally dry with lots of peppery and fruity character, the guys at my LHBS liked it and they aren't fans of this style.

 

[flars]

The latest basicbrewing video has inspired me to make a saison. Their recipe for a 5 gallon batch is as follows:

3.3 lbs Bavarian wheat LME
3.3 lbs Goldpils Vienna LME
16 oz Belgian Candi Syrup

2 oz Mandarina Bavaria for 15 min

3711 yeast (this is what I'm going to use)

I had a few thoughts on this recipe and would like your thoughts. I'm looking for something that's dry, crisp, and a little bit of a peppery spice. What sort of flavor would rye LME impart to this? And if I were to sub in rye LME, which LME would you sub it for?

You can get the dry, crisp, and peppery just from using WY 3711. The Belgian candy syrup will change the beer from a saison/seasonal to a more sweet fruity type Belgian ale. Pitch the 3711 on the high side and ferment mid 60°F range.
This is the hop schedule I've been using in a saison to avoid fruity Belgian flavors.
1 oz UK Kent Goldings (60 min)
0.25 oz Styrian Goldings (Celeia) (10 min)
0.25 oz Saaz (10 min)
0.75 oz Styrian Goldings (Celeia) (2 min)
0.75 oz Saaz (2 min)

 

[Jayjay1976]

You can get the dry, crisp, and peppery just from using WY 3711. The Belgian candy syrup will change the beer from a saison/seasonal to a more sweet fruity type Belgian ale. Pitch the 3711 on the high side and ferment mid 60°F range.
This is the hop schedule I've been using in a saison to avoid fruity Belgian flavors.
1 oz UK Kent Goldings (60 min)
0.25 oz Styrian Goldings (Celeia) (10 min)
0.25 oz Saaz (10 min)
0.75 oz Styrian Goldings (Celeia) (2 min)
0.75 oz Saaz (2 min)

Avoid fruity Belgian flavors in a Saison? What's the fun in that? 3711 is a great, highly attenuate yeast but it lacks some of the esters characteristic of the style.

 

[myndflyte]

Consider pitching both 3711 French and 3724 Belgian Saison yeasts; the combination produces lots of farmhouse flavors thanks to the 3724, and the 3711 will ensure your fermentation doesn't stall out as the Belgian strain can be prone to. Mine finished totally dry with lots of peppery and fruity character, the guys at my LHBS liked it and they aren't fans of this style.

When you use both, do you pitch both at the beginning or wait until the 3724 stalls and then pitch the 3711?

 

[Jayjay1976]

When you use both, do you pitch both at the beginning or wait until the 3724 stalls and then pitch the 3711?

I pitched both at the same time as suggested by my LHBS, who had a delicious batch on tap that helped convince me. Excellent combo, and though it doubles your yeast investment you can easily harvest some yeast at the end for several more batches down the road.

 

[TANSTAAFB]

You can get the dry, crisp, and peppery just from using WY 3711. The Belgian candy syrup will change the beer from a saison/seasonal to a more sweet fruity type Belgian ale. Pitch the 3711 on the high side and ferment mid 60°F range.
This is the hop schedule I've been using in a saison to avoid fruity Belgian flavors.
1 oz UK Kent Goldings (60 min)
0.25 oz Styrian Goldings (Celeia) (10 min)
0.25 oz Saaz (10 min)
0.75 oz Styrian Goldings (Celeia) (2 min)
0.75 oz Saaz (2 min)

Why would the Belgian syrup make it sweet and fruity? As long as he uses the light version (or just use regular ole sugar, works fine) it will be almost entirely fermentable w/o adding too much flavor. As mentioned before, it will also help dry out an extract brew that would otherwise likely attenuate less. I love the idea of pitching both DuPont and French saison strains! 3711 is a beast but you can't beat the flavors from DuPont if you're looking for that classic saison profile. I also agree with pitching mid 60s, letting it free rise, and them add some heat to make the yeastie beasties finish the damn job! Let us know how it goes. Now I gotta brew another saison damn it! Cheers [emoji482]

 

[myndflyte]

Has anyone used Omega's Saisonstein's Monster yeast (http://www.omegayeast.com/portfolio/saisonsteins-monster/)? It looks like it might be the combination of French and Belgain saison yeast that I'm looking for without having to buy two packages of yeast. Anyone that used it have thoughts on it?

 

[SoCal-Doug]

I would be willing to try it. I've cultured, grew and saved Dupont dregs as well as saved my 3711. I'm guessing Omega is near the same as combining those two. Maybe i'll split a batch between my jars and omega next time.

 

[ProblemChild]

well, made two batches with it - both for competition. Got dinged for bubblegum.

Last batch scored a 36 but I got hit for bubblegum. Fermentation temps were set at 72°F and a 2 liter starter for a 5 gal batch was used.

Not using this strain for competition again. Lallemond Belle Saison will be next strain with this recipe.