My Weast 3724 saison is boring. What gives?

[briantompo]

Hello,
For those that don't want to read a long post: My first saison was tasty but the next 2 using harvested yeast are boring. I'm trying to figure out how to get the rich, saison flavors back. Is it ferm temp, yeast stress, trub or grain bill that produced the classic saison flavor in my first batch? What are your thoughts?

Here's the long, boring-ass part: I brewed my first saison in June using Wyeast 3724. It was a slow, quirky fermentation that smelled of sulfur early on but produced a tasty beer with banana, clove and Hoppes#9 flavors, similar to a Boulevard Tank7. It took 21 days, including a 14 day stall @ 1.030, to go from 1.053 to 1.006.

Saison #2 (1.053 to 1.005 and Pils base instead of Vienna) was fermented with harvested slurry and while it's clean, it tastes pretty bland by comparison. It lacks the rich banana/clove/gun cleaner flavor of the first batch and has a very slight chloraseptic flavor like a Goose Island Sofie. It's so boring that I keg hopped it with Nelson and Simcoe last night.

Saison #3 (Hi-Nelson recipe from HBT) was pitched onto the cake from #2 and left to open ferment. No airlock this time and it went from 1.062 to under 1.010 in 4 days! It tastes bland like batch #2 but I still racked it onto the hibiscus tea in secondary.

All 3 saisons fermented in the same PET carboy in my garage at 80-90F. Grain bills were similar: 78% base malt, 7% Lt. Munich, 7% candi sugar, 4% flaked wheat and 4% Quaker Oats. All 3 were bittered to about 30 IBU's. The first batch was very clear wort but batches 2 & 3 started with lots of trub.

I'm not opposed to starting over with fresh 3724 yeast but I would like to understand WHY the beers are so bland. What causes the banana, clove and pepper flavors? I'd like to hear your opinion so I can brew better beer.
Thanks, Brian

 

[tagz]

Sounds like you over-pitched, especially with batch three. I'd use a yeast calc next time.

https://sciencebrewer.com/2012/03/02/pitching-rate-experiment-part-deux-results/

 

[trav77]

+1.

Try overbuilding starters and saving 100 B cells to culture up next time rather than pitching saved slurry or on yeast cakes.

 

[briantompo]

Ok, I'll revisit my pitch rate as it's admittedly become a bit haphazard. Thanks for the link! Brian

 

[serum]

I'd agree with that.

Too much yeast gives a cleaner beer

 

[specharka]

1) Sounds like you overpitched your yeast. For optimum results, shoot for 0.75 million cells/mL-P, which is equivalent to about 50 mL of compact yeast slurry for a 5G batch of 1.060 wort.

2) Temperature plays a huge role in ester and phenolic development. I would start low, around 65F, and gradually raise the temperature 2-3F per day until fully attenuated. Should produce a nice balance of banana and clove flavors.

3) Alternatively, you could employ a vitality starter in lieu of a traditional yeast starter. Basically involves putting a small amount of yeast to work on a stir plate for a few hours prior to pitching. I usually do 1L of first runnings and a small amount of yeast -- around a tablespoon of slurry. By the time the rest of the batch is cool enough for pitching, the vitality starter is fermenting and ready to pitch. Works wonders to accentuate yeast-derived flavors.

 

[Brewmasher]

Consider adding more wheat to your grist. Wheat malt seems to bring out the esters more. Also an acid rest at 113 F for about 15-20 min if your system is capable.

 

[kh54s10]

You also mentioned using pilsner malt in one instead of vienna in the first. IMO the pilsner one would have a lot less flavor from the base malt itself. But it should not be the cloves, banana and pepper flavors that you are looking for.

 

[tagz]

IME 3724 does not have any banana or clove. That's why I use it!

 

[briantompo]

Guys, thanks for the suggestions. I got bogged down at work and wasn't able to respond and offer my thanks. I'm going to incorporate your suggestions in my next saison and I've also decided to start with a fresh pack of 3724 yeast to eliminate that variable.

Hey specharka,
When you pitch the entire contents of your hours-old vitality starter, do you also pitch additional yeast? Also, I was surprised by your recommendation to ferment cooler and ramp up; I would have thought that would suppress esters and phenols but I'm going to try it.

As a follow-up: I had some of that second batch, the one I keg hopped with Simcoe and Nelson a week ago. I get hints of all the right flavors but it's still a ghost of the beer I want to brew.

Thanks again,
Brian

 

[specharka]

Guys, thanks for the suggestions. I got bogged down at work and wasn't able to respond and offer my thanks. I'm going to incorporate your suggestions in my next saison and I've also decided to start with a fresh pack of 3724 yeast to eliminate that variable.

Hey specharka,
When you pitch the entire contents of your hours-old vitality starter, do you also pitch additional yeast? Also, I was surprised by your recommendation to ferment cooler and ramp up; I would have thought that would suppress esters and phenols but I'm going to try it.

As a follow-up: I had some of that second batch, the one I keg hopped with Simcoe and Nelson a week ago. I get hints of all the right flavors but it's still a ghost of the beer I want to brew.

Thanks again,
Brian

Well, there's definitely a pendulum you need to consider. Pitching yeast to 85F wort might result in a faster fermentation but it usually results in a messy one, at least IME. I've had the most successful fermentations with Belgian yeast by pitching low and allowing the beer to free rise to 75-85F.

And no, there's no need to pitch additional yeast to ensure successful fermentation. With a vitality starter, you've already "proofed" the yeast, so the yeast in suspension is well oxygenated and ready to go. Just attained 85% AA with a very small pitch of Conan using this method.
http://brulosophy.com/2015/06/29/ye...e-cell-count-vs-vitality-exbeeriment-results/

 

[briantompo]

...there's no need to pitch additional yeast to ensure successful fermentation. With a vitality starter, you've already "proofed" the yeast, so the yeast in suspension is well oxygenated and ready to go.

Wow, not what I expected to hear! I thought maybe you added additional slurry to reach a desired pitch pitch rate since the vitality starter contained such a small qty of yeast.

When you pull some of your first runnings for the vitality starter do you heat it further or boil it before chilling?

Thanks, Brian

 

[specharka]

Wow, not what I expected to hear! I thought maybe you added additional slurry to reach a desired pitch pitch rate since the vitality starter contained such a small qty of yeast.



When you pull some of your first runnings for the vitality starter do you heat it further or boil it before chilling?



Thanks, Brian

To be fair, I was aiming for a low pitch rate so the small yeast quantity worked in my favor. And no, mash out temperatures are sufficient to neutralize any bacterial contamination. I've been using terminal runnings for years as yeast starter wort without ill effect.

 

[briantompo]

Thanks for the follow-up info on your vitality starter process. I tried it for the first time today and brewed an IPA.
It's kinda strange pitching without any signs of fermentation in the starter and I'm curious to see this in action.
Thanks for your explanation,
Brian