My last 4 beers last like burnt plastic hospital...

[EndOfLine]

Hello everyone. Long time lurker, however don't post much... I am hoping you guys can help me out with isolating an off flavor in my beer, and hopefully preventing it in future.

My last four beers have had a chlorophenol like flavor that I can't get rid of. At first I thought it was my water, because Washington DC adds chloramine into the water, and I have recently learned that my activated carbon filter will not strip it out unless it is a very slow flow. So I have added 1/2 Camden tablets, crushed into my water before I add extract or grain. However, I am still getting this off flavor. Maybe its a wild yeast infection?
I kegged 2 beers tonight, both with off flavors. One was an extract british ipa with the conan yeast (tasted a bit burnt with some acrid notes, slight plastic)
and the mocktoberfest extract beer tasted like (hospital, plastic, holloween plastic)

My brew process:
1. fill my kettle with safe to drink hose, hose water with my activated carbon filter.

2. heat up my kettle

3. around 120F I have been adding my 1/2 crushed camden tablet.

4. steeping grains, 20-30 min.

5. Boil a few min. turn off boil, add extract.

6. 15 min boil with hops.

7. crash cool with immertion chiller (the chiller is in the boil several min before I cool)

8. add beer into one of my SS brewtech conicals. Since I did suspect a wild infection of some kind I really made sure to break down my conicals: PBW, hot water, then starsan everything. put it back together, add wort.

9. stick my conical into my fridge, I have a johnsons temp controll, with probe that I will stick into my thermowell to make sure the temp is steady.

10. ferment with temp 64-70 with temp controller and fridge.

11. raise temp a few degrees after the first few days for the diacetyl rest.

12. condition a week

13. Taste beer and take a gravity reading.



This is where I am first tasting these off flavors. prior to kegging, and after.
My best guess's

1. I sanatize with starsan and tap water, unfiltered and with no camden, could I be picking up enough chrolomine here?

2. maybe my seals in my conical are infected? despite them soaking in PBW and starsan?

3. When I crash cool my conicals in my fridge (like 79 to 69) My air lock goes in reverse, Could any air I pull into the conical this way infect my beer? even though I have starsan or moonshine in the air lock?

4. Could it be the LME I am using?

5. brewing kettle? I dont really clean in, just hose it down. But I have brewed 30 times this year with no issues

6. Ball locks in my conicals, I have had them soaking them in pbw with out taking them apart.

 

[slym2none]

1. I sanatize with starsan and tap water, unfiltered and with no camden, could I be picking up enough chrolomine here?

I would say no. I have always used tap water with my StarSan and I have never gotten an off-flavour in my beers. And yes, my tap water smells & tastes like a swimming pool.

Am... am I supposed to be using distilled water with my SS???

 

[Sailingeric]

Brewed 30 times so you have a brewing history, that is a plus. May be the conical, I would get a bucket for the next batch and you can see if that is source of the infection.

 

[BrewDoc1518]

Could be a wild infection still lingering in your conical, I second getting a bucket for a test run. My other thought was how much yeast are you pitching? Off flavor could be from stressed yeast.

 

[chisena]

What type of hose do you use and have you ever soaked them for an extended period in StarSan or PBW?

 

[ba-brewer]

Am... am I supposed to be using distilled water with my SS???

If you use distilled or RO water the starsan will not turn cloudy as fast. If you dont keep it for longer than a week it probable does not matter.

 

[ba-brewer]

I kegged 2 beers tonight, both with off flavors. One was an extract british ipa with the conan yeast (tasted a bit burnt with some acrid notes, slight plastic)

I had two beers got a sort of burn slightly smokey taste after being kegged. Flavor started light and got worst over time to the point of not being drinkable. Never figured out what caused it, but both where lagered in carboys in a keezer several weeks apart. I did have a issue with starsan getting sucked back into the carboy when it was initially cooled. I dont think it was the starsan as I had previously dumped an airlock full of starsan into the fermentor on accident without issues. Sort of thought it might of been the musty keezer air that got pulled into the carboy. Other beers that were brewed around the same time but not get put into the keezer were fine.

 

[BrunDog]

Does ur beer look (pellicle) or act (continually falling OGs) or taste (sour, acidic) infected?

-BD

 

[EndOfLine]

Brewed 30 times so you have a brewing history, that is a plus. May be the conical, I would get a bucket for the next batch and you can see if that is source of the infection.

I still have a glass carboy, ill try it next time to cross compare. MInd you I have two stainless steal conicals and they are both doing it

 

[EndOfLine]

Does ur beer look (pellicle) or act (continually falling OGs) or taste (sour, acidic) infected?

-BD

in these two batches, no pellicle. None of hte 4 beers became acidic or sour. Only the plastic flavor increased

 

[EndOfLine]

What type of hose do you use and have you ever soaked them for an extended period in StarSan or PBW?

silicon hose from fermentor into the kegs

yes, it has sat for an extended time in both PBW and StarSan

 

[EndOfLine]

Could be a wild infection still lingering in your conical, I second getting a bucket for a test run. My other thought was how much yeast are you pitching? Off flavor could be from stressed yeast.

in the mocktober fest beer two dry us -05 packets, for gravity of 1.050

 

[secondbase]

Plastic is an off flavor that brett can give off. I'd toss the hose and get a new one if you haven't tried that already. And get rid of your bucket!

 

[OleBrewing]

So your green beer tastes the same as after its been kegged? Like plastic? What tubing are you using off of thekeg?

 

[EndOfLine]

its not a bucket, this is occuring in two different ss brewtech conical, befoer kegging, after fermentation. The tube in question I PBW, rinsed and starsan'd. However, the flavor comes before the tube using my male sample valves

 

[Bellybuster]

Personally, hose replacement is cheap and chances are it's time anyway.
I would still suspect the water for this off flavour though. It's for sure the most common culprit for it.
You should try your next batch with RO water.

Camden tabs do have a shelf life too.....just for interest.

 

[DU99]

how clean is your chiller..boiling water don't kill much,is the any green/blue coloring on the joints.

 

[BrunDog]

Personally, hose replacement is cheap and chances are it's time anyway.
I would still suspect the water for this off flavour though. It's for sure the most common culprit for it.
You should try your next batch with RO water.

Camden tabs do have a shelf life too.....just for interest.

I agree. Take the water out of the equation to rule it out.

-BD

 

[RmikeVT]

3. around 120F I have been adding my 1/2 crushed camden tablet.

Have you done any research on camden tablets and temperature. When I used to use them I would use at whatever temp the water came out of the faucet. Is there any possibility it is denatured at 120* -- I don't know.

It has been a while since I have brewed extract but I think you should be steeping your grain at a temp higher than 120, more like 150-160. And you aren't squeezing the grain bag after steeping, this could lead to astringency.

 

[WrQth]

One candem tablet treats 20 gallons and it's effect on chloramine is immediate. If you are using too much then you may need to give it 24 hr before using the water.

 

[dsaavedra]

Are you scorching the extract? I know you said you turn the heat off while adding the extract but the bottom of your kettle is probably still stupid hot and if you use liquid extract it can sink straight to the bottom if you add it too fast or aren't stirring vigorously enough when you add it. I'm not sure if this is as much of a concern with dry extract as that tends to clump up and float until it dissolves (at least from my experience). Do you see any burnt looking residue when you empty your kettle? Maybe leave the heat off for a few minutes to let the bottom of your kettle cool down a little before adding your extract might help?

Also, you should really clean your kettle! Hose it out to get all the big crud out and then pour a cup or so of Star San into it and scrub all over with a 3M pad and it will look like new. The acidity of the Star San (I have used vinegar before, Bar Keeper's Friend would probably work too) cuts right through the grime that clings to the kettle even after hosing/scrubbing with plain water. I'm sure continually cooking this grime onto your kettle batch after batch can't be helping anything.

 

[m00ps]

FWIW, only beer Ive made that definitively had a plastic band-aid taste was one that fluctuated by more than 5 degrees with the day/night during fermentation

 

[2005STi]

I'm concerned I have this problem too as I can't logically find a part my process that would have yielded that flavor. The only change in my process was tripling my hopping rate (3oz @ 10min and 6oz in the whirlpool).

But my beer has a hot fusel alcohol/ slight bandaid flavor/aroma. I fermented right at 66 and then free rise to 68 (temp controlled ferm chamber). I guess I won't know for sure if it was the carboy until I brew a low hopped beer in the same carboy. Although I'm apprehensive of wasting a whole brewday/batch to find out

 

[Sailingeric]

6. Ball locks in my conicals, I have had them soaking them in pbw with out taking them apart.

This might be your problem. If you are not taking it apart to clean, that might be the source. There is a blog post from Brulosophy that a fellow brewer was having and it turned out to be gunk in the ball lock causing the infection. Might be working taking it all apart to give it a good cleaning.

 

[d3track]

How are you transferring to your conical

 

[tim_c7]

My brew process:
1. fill my kettle with safe to drink hose, hose water with my activated carbon filter.

Could the taste be from a garden hose that has been sitting outside in the sun prior to filling your kettle?

Could you have used bleach of any other detergent in your cleaning process?

Let us know what worked for you. Good luck.

 

[beergolf]

This might be your problem. If you are not taking it apart to clean, that might be the source. There is a blog post from Brulosophy that a fellow brewer was having and it turned out to be gunk in the ball lock causing the infection. Might be working taking it all apart to give it a good cleaning.

I agree that this may be the problem.

 

[jeff62217]

Hello everyone. Long time lurker, however don't post much... I am hoping you guys can help me out with isolating an off flavor in my beer, and hopefully preventing it in future.

My last four beers have had a chlorophenol like flavor that I can't get rid of. At first I thought it was my water, because Washington DC adds chloramine into the water, and I have recently learned that my activated carbon filter will not strip it out unless it is a very slow flow. So I have added 1/2 Camden tablets, crushed into my water before I add extract or grain. However, I am still getting this off flavor. Maybe its a wild yeast infection?
I kegged 2 beers tonight, both with off flavors. One was an extract british ipa with the conan yeast (tasted a bit burnt with some acrid notes, slight plastic)
and the mocktoberfest extract beer tasted like (hospital, plastic, holloween plastic)

My brew process:
1. fill my kettle with safe to drink hose, hose water with my activated carbon filter.

2. heat up my kettle

3. around 120F I have been adding my 1/2 crushed camden tablet.

4. steeping grains, 20-30 min.

5. Boil a few min. turn off boil, add extract.

6. 15 min boil with hops.

7. crash cool with immertion chiller (the chiller is in the boil several min before I cool)

8. add beer into one of my SS brewtech conicals. Since I did suspect a wild infection of some kind I really made sure to break down my conicals: PBW, hot water, then starsan everything. put it back together, add wort.

9. stick my conical into my fridge, I have a johnsons temp controll, with probe that I will stick into my thermowell to make sure the temp is steady.

10. ferment with temp 64-70 with temp controller and fridge.

11. raise temp a few degrees after the first few days for the diacetyl rest.

12. condition a week

13. Taste beer and take a gravity reading.



This is where I am first tasting these off flavors. prior to kegging, and after.
My best guess's

1. I sanatize with starsan and tap water, unfiltered and with no camden, could I be picking up enough chrolomine here?

2. maybe my seals in my conical are infected? despite them soaking in PBW and starsan?

3. When I crash cool my conicals in my fridge (like 79 to 69) My air lock goes in reverse, Could any air I pull into the conical this way infect my beer? even though I have starsan or moonshine in the air lock?

4. Could it be the LME I am using?

5. brewing kettle? I dont really clean in, just hose it down. But I have brewed 30 times this year with no issues

6. Ball locks in my conicals, I have had them soaking them in pbw with out taking them apart.

I was getting the band aid/medicinal off flavor every couple batches, some back to back around a year ago. Like you, I couldn't figure it out, so I changed one or two things at a time, until I kind of narrowed it down.

I went from using tap water + campden to 100% RO water + minerals, cleaning with oxyclean to pbw only, etc.

In the end the culprit for me was that I was chilling to 85-90 and letting it chill the rest of the way overnight in an effort to save some water and must've had wild yeast contamination.

As soon as I began chilling to around pitching temps and pitching yeast within 1.5-2 hours at the longest, I haven't had that nasty off flavor since.

I've also heard chlorophenols can cause this, but in my case I'm sure it was wild yeast.

Hope what worked for me leads you in the right direction.

 

[EndOfLine]

Thanks for all the suggestions guys... Appreciate it. Right now there are to many extraneous variables: I need to double check my water before I rule it out. so time to do an experiment.

I have brewed two American IPAs in the past 24 hours. Both are near identical recipes:

1. Tap water with campden, like my other beers, that have tasted like plastic.

2. Deer park water.

If both beers are bad I'll move on to my fermenters next. One the spring water beer is good and the tap water is bad then I'll know the answer. What will really puzzle me is if both beers are good

 

[dsaavedra]

Thanks for all the suggestions guys... Appreciate it. Right now there are to many extraneous variables: I need to double check my water before I rule it out. so time to do an experiment.

I have brewed two American IPAs in the past 24 hours. Both are near identical recipes:

1. Tap water with campden, like my other beers, that have tasted like plastic.

2. Deer park water.

If both beers are bad I'll move on to my fermenters next. One the spring water beer is good and the tap water is bad then I'll know the answer. What will really puzzle me is if both beers are good

This is the right approach! Change one thing at a time otherwise you will never know what made the difference. Hopefully you will find your answer. It sure would puzzling if both beers came out identical (though hopefully they'd both be good!) but I have a feeling you will find your answer here.

 

[EndOfLine]

Yes, that is what im thinking. What is really puzzling is that I have made around 30 beers since march.. mostly with my current methods, and only the last 4 were ruined. very strange.

 

[beerkench]

Letting air bubble inwards during cold crash isn't going to do your beer any favors even if it's not the cause of the bad taste. Can't you cap your conical before crashing?


Sent from hell
using Home Brew

 

[EndOfLine]

Letting air bubble inwards during cold crash isn't going to do your beer any favors even if it's not the cause of the bad taste. Can't you cap your conical before crashing?


Sent from hell
using Home Brew

The air is coming in prior to primary fermentation. My ground water this summer was around 75F, So I could cool my wort to 78ish, then crash cool it to the mid 60s. The air bubbles would go inward here.

I cold crash in my gets under pressure.

 

[beerkench]

The air is coming in prior to primary fermentation. My ground water this summer was around 75F, So I could cool my wort to 78ish, then crash cool it to the mid 60s. The air bubbles would go inward here.

I cold crash in my gets under pressure.

I would be paranoid about contamination if the airlock was letting in air before yeast pitch, especially if the wort is warm. I know my ferm chamber must be full of bacteria and yeast because I never clean it.

 

[brewkinger]

in the mocktober fest beer two dry us -05 packets, for gravity of 1.050

Way too much yeast for a normal 1.050 gravity batch. There are enough viable cells in one packet of dry yeast to get the job done.
Pitch one

I would still suspect the water for this off flavor though. It's for sure the most common culprit for it.
You should try your next batch with RO water.
Camden tabs do have a shelf life too.....just for interest.

And to add to that, Camden tablets need some time to get the job done. Another post mentioned that the effects are immediate, but that just is not true. The chloramine has to be broken down and then the chlorine gas has to be released from the water.

One candem tablet treats 20 gallons and it's effect on chloramine is immediate. If you are using too much then you may need to give it 24 hr before using the water.

See above.

Also, you should really clean your kettle! Hose it out to get all the big crud out and then pour a cup or so of Star San into it and scrub all over with a 3M pad and it will look like new. The acidity of the Star San (I have used vinegar before, Bar Keeper's Friend would probably work too) cuts right through the grime that clings to the kettle even after hosing/scrubbing with plain water. I'm sure continually cooking this grime onto your kettle batch after batch can't be helping anything.

Very surprised that no one jumped all over this one. Terrible advice.
Especially if you are using aluminum kettle.
In both SS and aluminum kettles, that grayish haze that forms on the inside is a layer of oxidation that is crucial to good tasting beer.
Once you scrub that layer off, the acidic wort will leach off flavors into your beer (especially with aluminum).
A simple rinse and wipe with a soft cloth to remove obvious gunk is all that you really need.
If you feel the need to scrub your kettle inside to clean it then you have to fill with water and boil to start to form that layer all over again. (especially with aluminum)

This might be your problem. If you are not taking it apart to clean, that might be the source. There is a blog post from Brulosophy that a fellow brewer was having and it turned out to be gunk in the ball lock causing the infection. Might be working taking it all apart to give it a good cleaning.

Agreed. This is the only portion of my BK that i clean with regular frequency. After every brew, I open the ball valve up and high pressure air and then water through the valve and blast the crud out. Each and every time that I have done this, I see visible chunks of junk that have gotten stuck and scorched in the valve.
Once every 5 brews I also remove the whole valve (this is where 3 pc valve is worth the extra $$) and I soak in PBW for about 12 hours and then clean it real well.

 

[dsaavedra]

Very surprised that no one jumped all over this one. Terrible advice.
Especially if you are using aluminum kettle.
In both SS and aluminum kettles, that grayish haze that forms on the inside is a layer of oxidation that is crucial to good tasting beer.
Once you scrub that layer off, the acidic wort will leach off flavors into your beer (especially with aluminum).
A simple rinse and wipe with a soft cloth to remove obvious gunk is all that you really need.
If you feel the need to scrub your kettle inside to clean it then you have to fill with water and boil to start to form that layer all over again. (especially with aluminum

I was aware of the importance of the oxidation layer in aluminum kettles but I didn't think stainless kettles even developed the oxidation layer?

Anyway, I don't think the "grime" I was describing cleaning from my kettle (stainless steel) is any sort of oxidation layer. It is more of a greenish scum that develops along where the surface of the wort was and on the bottom of the kettle in the shape of my burner. I am able to blast some of it off with high pressure water but it takes a little scrubbing to get the rest off.

 

[brewkinger]

Also, you should really clean your kettle! Hose it out to get all the big crud out and then pour a cup or so of Star San into it and scrub all over with a 3M pad and it will look like new. The acidity of the Star San (I have used vinegar before, Bar Keeper's Friend would probably work too) cuts right through the grime that clings to the kettle even after hosing/scrubbing with plain water. I'm sure continually cooking this grime onto your kettle batch after batch can't be helping anything.

I was aware of the importance of the oxidation layer in aluminum kettles but I didn't think stainless kettles even developed the oxidation layer?

Anyway, I don't think the "grime" I was describing cleaning from my kettle (stainless steel) is any sort of oxidation layer. It is more of a greenish scum that develops along where the surface of the wort was and on the bottom of the kettle in the shape of my burner. I am able to blast some of it off with high pressure water but it takes a little scrubbing to get the rest off.

I quoted the above 2 posts because in the first, you used the words "scrub all over with a 3M pad and it will look like new"
You added "Bar Keepers Friend" which is an abrasive cleaner.
So an abrasive pad using an abrasive cleaner. Not what you want to really be doing after each and every batch. I was addressing that comment when I posted my response.
All I was saying was it is bad advice to scrub a kettle so that it looks like new. A new kettle has to get an oxidized layer before use.

SS kettles have a passive oxidation layer that forms from just sitting.
Aluminum kettles get an active layer from boiling water and acidic wort as well as a passive oxidation layer.
"Scrubbing" this layer off in either case is a bad idea.

In either situation, blast off what you can with a hose.
Then use a soft cloth and some elbow grease to scrub as much of the grime that you can off.

If you really must 3M pad scrub the inside of your kettle, do so gently and be aware that you are removing some of that protective layer.

 

[EndOfLine]

So right now im scratching my head with confusion. The control beer ended up being the good beer with out off flavors... wtf?

The treated tap water beer; filter/campden, has No off flavors. Which is interesting because I dumped this beer on top of last beer's yeast cake, and that beer DID have off flavors.

additionally, the spring water beer, does have a slight phenol/maybe slight plastic flavor? I was expected the OPPOSITE....
What is noteworthy is the good tasting, treated tap water ipa has DME in it, and the off tasting spring water ipa has LME in it. In fact, now that I am thinking about it, out of my last 6 beers. The 5 that tasted off were LME based. And the only good one was DME based.


These findings suggest that it isn't the yeast, nor the fermentors, NOR the water. So it must be the malt???
That is very strange... Maybe the LME was past its prime? Maybe the shipment of LME was in a hot van during shipment??

 

[dsaavedra]

So right now im scratching my head with confusion. The control beer ended up being the good beer with out off flavors... wtf?

The treated tap water beer; filter/campden, has No off flavors. Which is interesting because I dumped this beer on top of last beer's yeast cake, and that beer DID have off flavors.

additionally, the spring water beer, does have a slight phenol/maybe slight plastic flavor? I was expected the OPPOSITE....
What is noteworthy is the good tasting, treated tap water ipa has DME in it, and the off tasting spring water ipa has LME in it. In fact, now that I am thinking about it, out of my last 6 beers. The 5 that tasted off were LME based. And the only good one was DME based.


These findings suggest that it isn't the yeast, nor the fermentors, NOR the water. So it must be the malt???
That is very strange... Maybe the LME was past its prime? Maybe the shipment of LME was in a hot van during shipment??

In my experience, LME is much easier to scorch because it is so dense it just sinks straight to the bottom of the kettle unless you essentially drizzle it into your wort while keeping a very vigorous whirlpool going. I could see that contributing to a "burnt plastic" type taste. I saw some improvements in my beers when using DME as well. Not that LME is no good, I just think DME is a little more user-friendly.

 

[EndOfLine]

Update #3, the control beer (IPA) ended up tasting amazing. This beer went from grain to glass in 7 days! On day 7 I filled a growler of it to a local home brew meeting, sponsored by Cap City Brewery. Their Head brewer and a BJCP judge loved my beer and detected no off flavors.

this is very strange because I previously thought the water was my issue.... And this beer had the "bad water" in my brew experiment.

So it clearly is not the water once again.