My last 4 beers last like burnt plastic hospital...

[EndOfLine]

Yes, that is what im thinking. What is really puzzling is that I have made around 30 beers since march.. mostly with my current methods, and only the last 4 were ruined. very strange.

 

[beerkench]

Letting air bubble inwards during cold crash isn't going to do your beer any favors even if it's not the cause of the bad taste. Can't you cap your conical before crashing?


Sent from hell
using Home Brew

 

[EndOfLine]

Letting air bubble inwards during cold crash isn't going to do your beer any favors even if it's not the cause of the bad taste. Can't you cap your conical before crashing?


Sent from hell
using Home Brew

The air is coming in prior to primary fermentation. My ground water this summer was around 75F, So I could cool my wort to 78ish, then crash cool it to the mid 60s. The air bubbles would go inward here.

I cold crash in my gets under pressure.

 

[beerkench]

The air is coming in prior to primary fermentation. My ground water this summer was around 75F, So I could cool my wort to 78ish, then crash cool it to the mid 60s. The air bubbles would go inward here.

I cold crash in my gets under pressure.

I would be paranoid about contamination if the airlock was letting in air before yeast pitch, especially if the wort is warm. I know my ferm chamber must be full of bacteria and yeast because I never clean it.

 

[brewkinger]

in the mocktober fest beer two dry us -05 packets, for gravity of 1.050

Way too much yeast for a normal 1.050 gravity batch. There are enough viable cells in one packet of dry yeast to get the job done.
Pitch one

I would still suspect the water for this off flavor though. It's for sure the most common culprit for it.
You should try your next batch with RO water.
Camden tabs do have a shelf life too.....just for interest.

And to add to that, Camden tablets need some time to get the job done. Another post mentioned that the effects are immediate, but that just is not true. The chloramine has to be broken down and then the chlorine gas has to be released from the water.

One candem tablet treats 20 gallons and it's effect on chloramine is immediate. If you are using too much then you may need to give it 24 hr before using the water.

See above.

Also, you should really clean your kettle! Hose it out to get all the big crud out and then pour a cup or so of Star San into it and scrub all over with a 3M pad and it will look like new. The acidity of the Star San (I have used vinegar before, Bar Keeper's Friend would probably work too) cuts right through the grime that clings to the kettle even after hosing/scrubbing with plain water. I'm sure continually cooking this grime onto your kettle batch after batch can't be helping anything.

Very surprised that no one jumped all over this one. Terrible advice.
Especially if you are using aluminum kettle.
In both SS and aluminum kettles, that grayish haze that forms on the inside is a layer of oxidation that is crucial to good tasting beer.
Once you scrub that layer off, the acidic wort will leach off flavors into your beer (especially with aluminum).
A simple rinse and wipe with a soft cloth to remove obvious gunk is all that you really need.
If you feel the need to scrub your kettle inside to clean it then you have to fill with water and boil to start to form that layer all over again. (especially with aluminum)

This might be your problem. If you are not taking it apart to clean, that might be the source. There is a blog post from Brulosophy that a fellow brewer was having and it turned out to be gunk in the ball lock causing the infection. Might be working taking it all apart to give it a good cleaning.

Agreed. This is the only portion of my BK that i clean with regular frequency. After every brew, I open the ball valve up and high pressure air and then water through the valve and blast the crud out. Each and every time that I have done this, I see visible chunks of junk that have gotten stuck and scorched in the valve.
Once every 5 brews I also remove the whole valve (this is where 3 pc valve is worth the extra $$) and I soak in PBW for about 12 hours and then clean it real well.

 

[dsaavedra]

Very surprised that no one jumped all over this one. Terrible advice.
Especially if you are using aluminum kettle.
In both SS and aluminum kettles, that grayish haze that forms on the inside is a layer of oxidation that is crucial to good tasting beer.
Once you scrub that layer off, the acidic wort will leach off flavors into your beer (especially with aluminum).
A simple rinse and wipe with a soft cloth to remove obvious gunk is all that you really need.
If you feel the need to scrub your kettle inside to clean it then you have to fill with water and boil to start to form that layer all over again. (especially with aluminum

I was aware of the importance of the oxidation layer in aluminum kettles but I didn't think stainless kettles even developed the oxidation layer?

Anyway, I don't think the "grime" I was describing cleaning from my kettle (stainless steel) is any sort of oxidation layer. It is more of a greenish scum that develops along where the surface of the wort was and on the bottom of the kettle in the shape of my burner. I am able to blast some of it off with high pressure water but it takes a little scrubbing to get the rest off.

 

[brewkinger]

Also, you should really clean your kettle! Hose it out to get all the big crud out and then pour a cup or so of Star San into it and scrub all over with a 3M pad and it will look like new. The acidity of the Star San (I have used vinegar before, Bar Keeper's Friend would probably work too) cuts right through the grime that clings to the kettle even after hosing/scrubbing with plain water. I'm sure continually cooking this grime onto your kettle batch after batch can't be helping anything.

I was aware of the importance of the oxidation layer in aluminum kettles but I didn't think stainless kettles even developed the oxidation layer?

Anyway, I don't think the "grime" I was describing cleaning from my kettle (stainless steel) is any sort of oxidation layer. It is more of a greenish scum that develops along where the surface of the wort was and on the bottom of the kettle in the shape of my burner. I am able to blast some of it off with high pressure water but it takes a little scrubbing to get the rest off.

I quoted the above 2 posts because in the first, you used the words "scrub all over with a 3M pad and it will look like new"
You added "Bar Keepers Friend" which is an abrasive cleaner.
So an abrasive pad using an abrasive cleaner. Not what you want to really be doing after each and every batch. I was addressing that comment when I posted my response.
All I was saying was it is bad advice to scrub a kettle so that it looks like new. A new kettle has to get an oxidized layer before use.

SS kettles have a passive oxidation layer that forms from just sitting.
Aluminum kettles get an active layer from boiling water and acidic wort as well as a passive oxidation layer.
"Scrubbing" this layer off in either case is a bad idea.

In either situation, blast off what you can with a hose.
Then use a soft cloth and some elbow grease to scrub as much of the grime that you can off.

If you really must 3M pad scrub the inside of your kettle, do so gently and be aware that you are removing some of that protective layer.

 

[EndOfLine]

So right now im scratching my head with confusion. The control beer ended up being the good beer with out off flavors... wtf?

The treated tap water beer; filter/campden, has No off flavors. Which is interesting because I dumped this beer on top of last beer's yeast cake, and that beer DID have off flavors.

additionally, the spring water beer, does have a slight phenol/maybe slight plastic flavor? I was expected the OPPOSITE....
What is noteworthy is the good tasting, treated tap water ipa has DME in it, and the off tasting spring water ipa has LME in it. In fact, now that I am thinking about it, out of my last 6 beers. The 5 that tasted off were LME based. And the only good one was DME based.


These findings suggest that it isn't the yeast, nor the fermentors, NOR the water. So it must be the malt???
That is very strange... Maybe the LME was past its prime? Maybe the shipment of LME was in a hot van during shipment??

 

[dsaavedra]

So right now im scratching my head with confusion. The control beer ended up being the good beer with out off flavors... wtf?

The treated tap water beer; filter/campden, has No off flavors. Which is interesting because I dumped this beer on top of last beer's yeast cake, and that beer DID have off flavors.

additionally, the spring water beer, does have a slight phenol/maybe slight plastic flavor? I was expected the OPPOSITE....
What is noteworthy is the good tasting, treated tap water ipa has DME in it, and the off tasting spring water ipa has LME in it. In fact, now that I am thinking about it, out of my last 6 beers. The 5 that tasted off were LME based. And the only good one was DME based.


These findings suggest that it isn't the yeast, nor the fermentors, NOR the water. So it must be the malt???
That is very strange... Maybe the LME was past its prime? Maybe the shipment of LME was in a hot van during shipment??

In my experience, LME is much easier to scorch because it is so dense it just sinks straight to the bottom of the kettle unless you essentially drizzle it into your wort while keeping a very vigorous whirlpool going. I could see that contributing to a "burnt plastic" type taste. I saw some improvements in my beers when using DME as well. Not that LME is no good, I just think DME is a little more user-friendly.

 

[EndOfLine]

Update #3, the control beer (IPA) ended up tasting amazing. This beer went from grain to glass in 7 days! On day 7 I filled a growler of it to a local home brew meeting, sponsored by Cap City Brewery. Their Head brewer and a BJCP judge loved my beer and detected no off flavors.

this is very strange because I previously thought the water was my issue.... And this beer had the "bad water" in my brew experiment.

So it clearly is not the water once again.

 

[Sailingeric]

Update #3, the control beer (IPA) ended up tasting amazing. This beer went from grain to glass in 7 days! On day 7 I filled a growler of it to a local home brew meeting, sponsored by Cap City Brewery. Their Head brewer and a BJCP judge loved my beer and detected no off flavors.

this is very strange because I previously thought the water was my issue.... And this beer had the "bad water" in my brew experiment.

So it clearly is not the water once again.

If it is not the water, I would infection in the equipment. Did you take a part the ball lock and clean in inside and out??

 

[WrQth]

So right now im scratching my head with confusion. The control beer ended up being the good beer with out off flavors... wtf?

The treated tap water beer; filter/campden, has No off flavors. Which is interesting because I dumped this beer on top of last beer's yeast cake, and that beer DID have off flavors.

additionally, the spring water beer, does have a slight phenol/maybe slight plastic flavor? I was expected the OPPOSITE....
What is noteworthy is the good tasting, treated tap water ipa has DME in it, and the off tasting spring water ipa has LME in it. In fact, now that I am thinking about it, out of my last 6 beers. The 5 that tasted off were LME based. And the only good one was DME based.


These findings suggest that it isn't the yeast, nor the fermentors, NOR the water. So it must be the malt???
That is very strange... Maybe the LME was past its prime? Maybe the shipment of LME was in a hot van during shipment??

Seems to me it has to be the LME... whether the storage & handling of or the process where it is added into the boil kettle.

1.) Is the LME expired? There should be "use by date" stamped on the containers unless you are getting it from your LHBS from a large drum in which case you should ask your LHBS. Briess says "Store at temperatures <90º F. Best if used within 24 months from date of manufacture"

2.) Is the LME being shipped to you? Not much you can do about shipping conditions but could contribute to spoiling the LME. If purchasing at LHBS refer to #1 and how it is stored at LHBS.

3.) How are you storing & handling the LME once you have it? Refer to #1

4.) Slow the rate which the LME is added to the kettle while constantly stirring to ensure it isn't settling to the bottom where the kettle is still very hot and scorching the LME. You can try to dissolve the LME in a separate quantity of water which you could add after you've steeped your grains. Scorching can change the fermentability but this would be seen by a higher than predicted FG possibly.

5.) The water chemistry is not as important with extract (DME or LME) but should not be over looked. If your water was bad enough to cause a burnt plastic taste you should notice that flavor in the cooled wort before fermentation. You proved this by using spring water with LME and still getting the burnt plastic flavor.

6.) Having just read the Yeast book from the Brewing Elements Series I recall reading that Brettanomyces can create many off flavors including burnt plastic but you showed that using the yeast cake from a previous batch which had that off flavor that it did not return and it would have if you had a contamination of Brettanomyces.

7.) Try making a starter like you would with DME but substitute a sufficient amount of LME to have the same OG, give it 24hrs (if you don't have a stir plate give it longer) and taste that if it tastes like burnt plastic then it's the LME. By doing that you won't waste a whole 5 gallons and hours of dedicated time.

 

[brewkinger]

I sanatize with starsan and tap water, unfiltered and with no camden, could I be picking up enough chrolomine here?

Not enough to make a difference in the taste of the beer.

 

[Ungoliant]

In fact, now that I am thinking about it, out of my last 6 beers. The 5 that tasted off were LME based. And the only good one was DME based.

I have had a similar situation. I've been brewing for about 5 years, and while I only have around 10 batches under my belt, I have buckled down and done some pretty excruciating research between each batch trying to figure out what the hell that indescribable, funky off-flavor was. First I thought it was sanitation...Swapped solutions and got extra careful. Then I thought it was temp control issues...Put together a ferm cabinet. Then I thought it was underpitching...Started making starters. Then I thought it was too much trub...Started filtering. Then I thought it was an aeration issue...Now I aerate the crap out of my beers. Then I thought it was my water (I have a ROWPU under the sink and a whole-house filter) and swapped to RO water...and I STILL had the same off-flavor. I was about ready to quit brewing 'cause I just couldn't put out a damned beer good enough to share with anybody.

Then I swapped to all-grain, and my first two all-grain batches taste great.
My only guess is, every recipe I brewed before the swap had LME, and I was getting extract twang. So, for what it's worth, you might consider swapping over. Then again folks make great beer all the time with extract, I guess I'm just not one of the lucky few. I'm back to using my normal tap water, by the way (from what I have read, RO removes all the minerals you need for a good mash, and I don't feel like buying chemicals to fix that).

 

[EndOfLine]

Seems to me it has to be the LME... whether the storage & handling of or the process where it is added into the boil kettle.

1.) Is the LME expired? There should be "use by date" stamped on the containers unless you are getting it from your LHBS from a large drum in which case you should ask your LHBS. Briess says "Store at temperatures <90º F. Best if used within 24 months from date of manufacture"

2.) Is the LME being shipped to you? Not much you can do about shipping conditions but could contribute to spoiling the LME. If purchasing at LHBS refer to #1 and how it is stored at LHBS.

3.) How are you storing & handling the LME once you have it? Refer to #1

4.) Slow the rate which the LME is added to the kettle while constantly stirring to ensure it isn't settling to the bottom where the kettle is still very hot and scorching the LME. You can try to dissolve the LME in a separate quantity of water which you could add after you've steeped your grains. Scorching can change the fermentability but this would be seen by a higher than predicted FG possibly.

5.) The water chemistry is not as important with extract (DME or LME) but should not be over looked. If your water was bad enough to cause a burnt plastic taste you should notice that flavor in the cooled wort before fermentation. You proved this by using spring water with LME and still getting the burnt plastic flavor.

6.) Having just read the Yeast book from the Brewing Elements Series I recall reading that Brettanomyces can create many off flavors including burnt plastic but you showed that using the yeast cake from a previous batch which had that off flavor that it did not return and it would have if you had a contamination of Brettanomyces.

7.) Try making a starter like you would with DME but substitute a sufficient amount of LME to have the same OG, give it 24hrs (if you don't have a stir plate give it longer) and taste that if it tastes like burnt plastic then it's the LME. By doing that you won't waste a whole 5 gallons and hours of dedicated time.

Thank you for the long well thought out response! I will implement your suggestions. The lme is getting shipped to me. I store in my kitchen at 70degrees