My first cider

[applescrap]

Yes, but no too.
1.You may have better luck with finding the cheap juice where you are at. By me it is all a "blend" and most of it is preserved. Simply Apple is about I can find that isn't loaded with a benzoate or sorbate. My local apple orchards, the one that actually press their own juice are often only exposed to UV light.
2. Pitch rates do matter. Uber under pitching is a very bad thing.
3. How do you know when your cider is done fermenting if you take gravity readings? How do you match a previous batch when back sweetining if you don't have a final gravity?

I'm not saying you can't do it the other way, I just saying it is not the best way.

John palmer, and I have heard him say it on podcasts, says brewing is a blend of art and science. I agree with him. Considering what I am planning to do with this, any fairly flavorable juice should do. The pitch is fine if one pack is good for 5 gallons. And take a look at those pictures, thats how I know its done. It looks it, smells it, and is done. I am thinking about using the sorbate, cold crashing it, dumping it in another container, hitting it with some oak, cinnamon, and orange drinking it and then doing that again.

 

[applescrap]

Shake harder! Lol

Did you ferment those with out an air lock?

No i left the cap loose on the caboose. Sounded good.

Anyways figured it was a good idea, I mean why not, I was planning on degasing it anyways.

 

[applescrap]

Started my 1st batch of cider-used 6gl Kirkland apple juice OG 1.050 and pitched a pack of WLP090 yeast
Fermented for 14 days Gravity chk @ 1.020, temp 65-72F
Expected FG of 1.010
Racked to another carboy and repitched another pack of yeast
Is this typical for a cider?

Hey, you get off my thread. Haha, no seriously I dont know. I have never used a hydrometer, I dont know how to be honest.

 

[applescrap]

Why are you shaking the cider? You'll oxidize it quickly, especially with that much headspace. Leave it alone- let it clear and don't ruin it before you get a chance to bottle it!

I was hoping you would offer some of your knowledge, ideas, or opinions yooper. Thanks. I figured I would degas for a few reasons. Someone at Northern Brewer told me it was a good idea if I wanted to drink it quicker. So that got me thinking and I saw the nhbc sticky and it mentioned the degas tips from the winners. Next, I thought I saw you mention shaking something was ok for degas. And I figured one degas's wine and mead so I figured I would try it. Dont have a wine whip but that thing is pretty aggressive, so agitation must be ok, I thought. Massive amounts of co2 have come out of each bottle every day. Smells great, idk, guess leave it alone now. Wonder if I could cold crash, sorbate, and flavor in jug and then just enjoy by pouring carefully as the trub wouldnt even come off with shaking! I know, not very traditional but what do you think?

 

[Maylar]

Swirl gently if you feel you must (pun). Don't shake. Air at this stage is NOT good. I've never degassed cider.

 

[ericbw]

I was hoping you would offer some of your knowledge, ideas, or opinions yooper. Thanks. I figured I would degas for a few reasons. Someone at Northern Brewer told me it was a good idea if I wanted to drink it quicker. So that got me thinking and I saw the nhbc sticky and it mentioned the degas tips from the winners. Next, I thought I saw you mention shaking something was ok for degas. And I figured one degas's wine and mead so I figured I would try it. Dont have a wine whip but that thing is pretty aggressive, so agitation must be ok, I thought. Massive amounts of co2 have come out of each bottle every day. Smells great, idk, guess leave it alone now. Wonder if I could cold crash, sorbate, and flavor in jug and then just enjoy by pouring carefully as the trub wouldnt even come off with shaking! I know, not very traditional but what do you think?

When you degas wine, you're also usually adding some kind of sulfite like campden tablets. That helps to keep the wine from oxidizing. I guess you could do that with cider if you really want to shake it.

Let it sit now until it's clear. But I would still "burp' the bottles just to keep them from exploding.

Cider making is kind of a cross between beer and wine, just like the result is a cross between them.

 

[applescrap]

Chop and brew ep. 21. Award winning cider and mead brewer mino choi states he shakes cider and meads in sealed bucket. He says its like its in a dirty diaper. He says he does this 15 times a day. Kind of funny he looks like an asian version of me. I heard a podcast with him once I recall now where he said that too. He apparently is the first person to score a perfect score at nhbc or some contest like that on his first entry ever. If I recall he ages things as well, like in the year long range. In the video he alludes to quick making of cider. Havent finished watching yet.

 

[z-bob]

If you're not removing the lid (just loosening it) before you shake it, there's not much risk of oxidation -- there's no oxygen in the bottle, it has all been forced out. It also might speed the process up a little by getting rid of CO2 and keeping the yeast rousted. It also might not really do much of anything

If it makes you happy, go for it. But you'll accomplish the same thing just swirling it every couple of days, and almost the same thing by leaving it alone. If you are removing the lid and giving the cider a good whipping, stop it. That really might oxidize it because air will sneak in the top while you're doing all that.

 

[Yooper]

If you're not removing the lid (just loosening it) before you shake it, there's not much risk of oxidation -- there's no oxygen in the bottle, it has all been forced out. It also might speed the process up a little by getting rid of CO2 and keeping the yeast rousted. It also might not really do much of anything

If it makes you happy, go for it. But you'll accomplish the same thing just swirling it every couple of days, and almost the same thing by leaving it alone. If you are removing the lid and giving the cider a good whipping, stop it. That really might oxidize it because air will sneak in the top while you're doing all that.

That's not true- the ideal gas law, and the rest of the laws of physics will show you that gasses seek equilibrium. There is oxygen in the bottle, along with nitrogen, co2, etc- because that's what's in the air.

If degassing is done, and it's not usually done for lower ABV things like cider, it's done only during very active fermentation. During active fermentation, c02 is being produced at a high rate so it does have a protective effect and stirring/degassing can be done then.

Anyway, the amount of headspace especially is a concern along with the shaking.

 

[z-bob]

I don't think the gas partial pressures apply while CO2 is being given off because the CO2 is being forced out of the bottle faster than the O2 and N2 can diffuse in. The air is trying to get in but it has to diffuse "up stream" and I don't see that happening until the fermentation slows ways down. And by then, you're about done.

I could be wrong. Also the headspace is full of CO2 unless he takes the lid off, and even then it's mostly CO2.

 

[ericbw]

Opening the bottle is probably a bad thing generally. But over time, you probably pick up as much O2 through he plastic as through the top. The conditions aren't totally ideal for the ideal gas law.

Bottom line: stop opening the bottles

 

[applescrap]

I can assure you there are considerable amounts of gas in there. On day two I think, they could be shook and released and shook and released, three or four times and still have pressure. That has continued until last night where only two shakes and a release was enough. If I were to shake a fermentation bucket with an airlock on top, it would release right? Even that massive amount of CO2 that would be in 5 gallons. Just curious as opening these lids does seem sketchy and two, its a lot of work. Shaking one bucket is better than shaking 10 2 quart bottles. My idea is to go juice to Glass in 7 to 10 days.

As for the headspace, I didn't know there wasn't going to be a krausen. I poured out some apple juice to make room. Still curious if I could just back fill after sorbate and then drink by pouring out of bottle. At a dollar fifty a bottle, I'm having a hard time with understanding why we shouldn't be experimenting with this stuff more. Also, how come I am getting such mixed ideas on the degasing. Clearly there is plenty of gas in it, I am starting to wonder about beer.

 

[ericbw]

Two shakes and a release. Are we still talking about cider? Bazinga!!

I don't know why you degas wine, but you really don't degas beer. I don't know why.

I also don't think you need to shake a bucket. I let it all sit. With white labs 775 I let it sit for a month so the sulfur goes away.

You can ferment 7-10 days, sorbate, and drink it. It will be alcoholic, but it probably won't taste good to most people.

Cider takes a lot of time to mellow OR you can filter and backsweeten. It works. But you want good cider, right? And it needs to clear.

 

[applescrap]

^^ I'm trying my hardest not to giggle. Well I'm not trying that hard. All this shaking and releasing and gripping our juice is almost up there with biab sack talk. Yeah the idea is to Shake The Cider so you don't have to wait a month or at least that's my evil plan. In the words of Denny I want the best cider while having the most fun and doing the least amount of work or something like that. Since there's no sugar in it, shouldn't taste to Rocket Fuelly right?

Anyways thanks for the tips and for following along I'll taste it soon and let you know.

 

[applescrap]

Ok heres some pics from just now. Primary is certainly over I would think, at least for the most part. they are clearing and I tried to get a picture of it as I can start to see the other side. Poured a little in a glass and it tastes tart and dry. No off smell, no sulphur, tart and dry. Splashed in a little unfermented apple juice and it tastes good but the tart still comes through.

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[applescrap]

Update, They are still a little tart. Cleared almost entirely. I think tart has mellowed a little and I am tasting asorbic acid, which was in it.

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[applescrap]

Help aging now. So they are in a gallon jug now, but I am not carbonating it so dont know how to age. Any help much appreciated?

 

[ericbw]

Help aging now. So they are in a gallon jug now, but I am not carbonating it so dont know how to age. Any help much appreciated?

Very little headspace. How long do you want to age?

 

[z-bob]

this is pretty low alcohol, right? (I don't remember the details) So it shouldn't need much aging. I'm sipping some wine right now that I bottled a month ago. Cheap Niagara grape juice and lots of sugar. It was pretty bad at bottling, but it tastes good now.

Just put yours in beer bottles with very little headspace, and cap them with crown caps. Start drinking it in a couple of weeks; it won't last long.

If you have a spare growler, you can use that.

 

[applescrap]

Thanks guys, they are in a big gallon plastic juice jug i sanatized. I put sorbate in primary jugs above and 24 hr later racked and combined to gallon jug. Added apple concentrate and would like to let it mellow, but I am drinking off it to, so headspace is growing. Also I feel like fermentation is trying to happen again, I thought the sorbate was a rock solid plan?

 

[ericbw]

Sorbate is an ok plan, but not a rock solid plan. A combination of time, multiple racking, cold crashing, and sorbate is.

If the fermentation is going, sorbate might slow it, but it can overcome it.

If you're drinking it, you're not aging it I would just drink this batch and enjoy it. If it is fermenting a little, you'll get some fizz.

 

[Silver79]

My advice is to stop shaking and start bottling, or drinking.

 

[applescrap]

My advice is to stop shaking and start bottling, or drinking.

Thanks, I stopped shaking day four I think it was.

 

[applescrap]

Sorbate is an ok plan, but not a rock solid plan. A combination of time, multiple racking, cold crashing, and sorbate is.

If the fermentation is going, sorbate might slow it, but it can overcome it.

If you're drinking it, you're not aging it I would just drink this batch and enjoy it. If it is fermenting a little, you'll get some fizz.

hey I'm drinking and aging it, haha. I put the sorbate in the primary and then racked it 24hr later, read gently poured in gallon jug and cold crashed. Tasted it and added 1/2 can apple juice concentrate and dried ginger spice. It's nice, a little sweet, a little tart, but I feel like fermentation is hiding somewhere like an evil magician. I can smell the slightest hint of it and also some sulfur which was totally non-existent in the primary fermentation, which I believe was due to letting the CO2 out.

About that, it's a little strange to me that a man who has won over 60 Awards in three years, including many best of shows, states that he shakes it every single day for ciders and meads during primary. yet apparently he is the only one who does that. He has won best of shows double golds, etc. I I don't even know where they're from and what they mean, but he has clearly won some important awards. I suspect he ages stuff for a year and that is his secret too! I have read about aging as well, but this was crystal clear and done fermenting on day 7. I think it has mellowed and believe the tartness will to, thus I am looking to let it age a little while. I don't know, I think next batch will be 5 gallons and will be kegged so i dont have to worry so much about sorbate, but clearly I don't want the yeast eating my back sugars and creating weird smells that I worked hard to avoid. Anyways thanks for your help and happy brewing.

 

[ericbw]

Yeah, it will ferment out fast. I don't know about the shaking. If it tastes good, that's what counts.

I got into kegging solely to make better cider.

 

[applescrap]

Added cinnamon and ginger and apple concentrate to that first batch it's hanging out in the fridge. Also back sweetened with more juice. Little to weak now, but had fun experimenting. Made 7 new 2qt batches with the odorous nutrient. Shake rattle and roll as before. Much healthier looking ferment, very cloudy and gassy. Got stinky when not relieved of gas daily. Little sample and it is better, I think than before without nutrient. Less sour and more drinkable, but I feel the nutrient left some residual background taste.

 

[ericbw]

Added cinnamon and ginger and apple concentrate to that first batch it's hanging out in the fridge. Also back sweetened with more juice. Little to weak now, but had fun experimenting. Made 7 new 2qt batches with the odorous nutrient. Shake rattle and roll as before. Much healthier looking ferment, very cloudy and gassy. Got stinky when not relieved of gas daily. Little sample and it is better, I think than before without nutrient. Less sour and more drinkable, but I feel the nutrient left some residual background taste.

Too weak but you liked the taste?

 

[applescrap]

Too weak but you liked the taste?

Yeah, a lot. It is really light and pretty refreshing really. Probably around 4.5 percent or so now. I just figure its a lot of calories though. The cinnamon took a few days to settle. It finally sunk to the bottom, i was like ut oh until that. Left a lot less flavor than it would have beer. A pinch of cinnamon in beer seems enough. I need to go to the liquor store today to get some high-powered alcohol to start making tinctures.

The new batch has is easier drinking. God that nutrient is a stinker. I am going to keg the three and a half gallons. Apparently I need to add some Camden tablets with the sorbate. Can you help me with how much?

 

[Maylar]

1 crushed Campden tab per gallon, and typically 1/2 tsp sorbate per gallon.

 

[applescrap]

Thanks mylar

Srsly just lost sweet post, i hate it when that happens. Long story short, wife likes first batch better. It was definitely way brighter and crisper and also more sour. Second batch with nutrient way more drinkable in my opinion. Less sour, but not as bright and clean. Hidden off taste from pissy smelling nutrient. Wife said it tastes like chardonnay. Its crystal clear, i think a week old. Just under 1/8 oz oak in one qt batch and slightly less than double that in another. The smaller oak batch is super nice. I will probably just drink it still. Maybe even from primary. It is really good. The others are to be cont....i am thinking orange zest, apple concentrate and kegged. The batch without nutrient was so sour nothing could sweeten that. I think 1 can per 2.5g would be plenty for nutrient batch. How much sugar do you guys/gals use?