My first cider

[applescrap]

My first foray into cider. Bought cheap juice in bottles and threw yeast in. Didnt measure yeast just sprinkled one fifth of red star pasteur blanc champagne yeast in each. No sugar. Wanted to use yeast nutrient staggered through primary fermentation but just went without it. Plan is to pot. sorbate and then back sweeten and flavor with, idk, sugar, cinnamon, oak, orange peel, etc. Degassed today 24 hour post pitch by grabbing jug and swirling aggressively. I am loving this, open jug and throw yeast in.

Any ideas what abv will be on just cheap apple juice? Other tips appreciated.

 

[Maylar]

Without nutrient that yeast will produce sulfur. Add some now.
Typical apple juice ferments to 6 - 6.5%.

 

[ericbw]

LIke Maylar said, 6-6.5% and super dry. If you use frozen apple juice concentrate, you're getting a lot of sugar with some apple flavor. (Aside from the process of concentrating it, that is pretty much natural stuff.) Since you're stabilizing, it doesn't even matter if it has preservatives, but it usually doesn't, anyway.

Be sure to give it time. The sulfur will dissipate and it will settle out clear over time.

I like the idea of adding those flavors. I don't think I would do oak with the others, but cinnamon and orange peel together sounds good.

You might also think about 1/4 tsp of tannin added (per gallon), especially if you don't plan to carbonate it.

 

[Drewed]

Congratulations on getting into cider making. However, after deciding that you wanted to make cider you have done almost everything wrong on your way to making good cider.
1. Don't buy cheap juice. All of you flavor will come from the juice. Most (all) cheap juice is not just apple (grape and other juice mixed in) along with artificial flavors that can do all sorts of wacky things when the sugar is fermented. Also cheap juice tends to have preservatives in it.
2. Didn't measure the yeast. 1/5 of a packet? Into how much liquid?
3. No starting gravity reading? if you don't have a hydrometer buy one now. They are cheap and you NEED it.
4. Yes, add nutrient now.

 

[applescrap]

Without nutrient that yeast will produce sulfur. Add some now.
Typical apple juice ferments to 6 - 6.5%.

Ugh, i hate the fart smell, when I degassed it last night I didn't smell it yet. I hope it doesn't show up. need to buy some nutrient. I got the yeast on Amazon couldn't wait.

 

[Maylar]

Ugh, i hate the fart smell, when I degassed it last night I didn't smell it yet. I hope it doesn't show up. need to buy some nutrient. I got the yeast on Amazon couldn't wait.

Boil some bread yeast in a small amount of water and when it cools split it between your jugs. Dead yeast act as nutrients for living yeast. The water will also eliminate the foaming you'd get if you add powdered nutrients to an active ferment.

Pasteur champagne yeast is listed as a "high" sulfur producer without nutrients.

I don't bother degassing cider, but if you do it avoid mixing air into it.

 

[ericbw]

Drewed is wrong on 3 out of 4 items. Hahahaha.

Much cheap juice is all apple from concentrate with ascorbic acid. It's produced and packaged aseptically, so they assume no yeast or bacteria. I think orchard cider is better than cheap juice but it's still good.

Yeast will figure it out.

Gravity doesn't really matter. Assume it could be 5 - 7% but unlikely it is higher or lower.

There is little nutrient in cider. Add it.

Time is the key.

 

[z-bob]

Be careful buying "good" apple juice (like from an orchard), it often has benzoate or sorbate preservatives and won't ferment.

Decent bottled filtered apple juice like Treetop, Mott's, Kirkland, Newman's Own (Aldi's is decent too, and really cheap) just has vitamin C added and works fine.

The best cider I've made was with just a little added sugar (I think I added 2 oz per gallon), yeast nutrient, and Cotes des Blanc yeast. I have some going right now with a pound of sugar per gallon and Premier Cuvee yeast; I kind of expect that one to taste like rocket fuel for a while.

 

[ericbw]

I like to get the OG up a little bit, so you could get about 7% once it ferments. Then I add juice/backsweeten until it's about 5%. I filter and keg it, but you can bottle, carb, and pasteurize in the bottles. If you're brave.

 

[Drewed]

Drewed is wrong on 3 out of 4 items. Hahahaha.

Much cheap juice is all apple from concentrate with ascorbic acid. It's produced and packaged aseptically, so they assume no yeast or bacteria. I think orchard cider is better than cheap juice but it's still good.

Yeast will figure it out.

Gravity doesn't really matter. Assume it could be 5 - 7% but unlikely it is higher or lower.

There is little nutrient in cider. Add it.

Time is the key.

Yes, but no too.
1.You may have better luck with finding the cheap juice where you are at. By me it is all a "blend" and most of it is preserved. Simply Apple is about I can find that isn't loaded with a benzoate or sorbate. My local apple orchards, the one that actually press their own juice are often only exposed to UV light.
2. Pitch rates do matter. Uber under pitching is a very bad thing.
3. How do you know when your cider is done fermenting if you take gravity readings? How do you match a previous batch when back sweetining if you don't have a final gravity?

I'm not saying you can't do it the other way, I just saying it is not the best way.

 

[GeneDaniels1963]

Ugh, i hate the fart smell, when I degassed it last night I didn't smell it yet. I hope it doesn't show up. need to buy some nutrient. I got the yeast on Amazon couldn't wait.

My first cider smelled like rino fats for the first week. But then it got better and became OK.

But I found I have no problems at all if I add one can concentrate per 1/2 gal cider ferment. That ended the rino farts and raised the ABV to around 7.5-8%. I much prefer the higher ABV, and it is not as dry either.

But either way, cider is great fund and easy

 

[applescrap]

Thanks for the great ideas here. I thought decent juice, decent yeast, and degass. Got degass tip from nhbc sticky from mead and cider winners. Swirled last night and heard gas dissipate. Tonight figured fug it and shook it and degassed till it was gone, because I heard yooper say that once, that she got all the gas out. I could be wrong though. Looks and smells great. They are 2 qt not gallons. So probably pitched fairly strong which is fine. Not low and not high. Pic is of me swirling with built in grip.

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[CKuhns]

LOL - "Built in grip" - Love it - Will have to use that line...

As you can tell from the responses here, differing opinions abound. None are "Wrong" just different. Most will work or have worked for them. Find what works for you and perfect your own practices and techniques along the way.

Enjoy the journey.

 

[applescrap]

LOL - "Built in grip" - Love it - Will have to use that line...

As you can tell from the responses here, differing opinions abound. None are "Wrong" just different. Most will work or have worked for them. Find what works for you and perfect your own practices and techniques along the way.

Enjoy the journey.

Haha. Make sure your juice bottle has a good grip, not sure I've heard that tip.

What do you guys think of the shake? I mean if I took a wine whip and a drill in there is it going to disturb it any less than shaking?
Why don't we Degas beer?

 

[applescrap]

Okay so there's a nice video of Chris white from Northern Brewer back sweetening with wine conditioner and tinctures. It looks like his tinctures have been sitting around a while. I think he said flavorless vodka. Is that like the cheapest stuff I can find? Any help in making flavored tincturea would be cool, also ideas on backsweetening amounts. Seems like I would want to use the juice to back sweeten it? I guess that would lower the alcohol content but if I had 5 gallons of 4% really light refreshing Cider on tap that be pretty sweet, no.

 

[ericbw]

Okay so there's a nice video of Chris white from Northern Brewer back sweetening with wine conditioner and tinctures. It looks like his tinctures have been sitting around a while. I think he said flavorless vodka. Is that like the cheapest stuff I can find? Any help in making flavored tincturea would be cool, also ideas on backsweetening amounts. Seems like I would want to use the juice to back sweeten it? I guess that would lower the alcohol content but if I had 5 gallons of 4% really light refreshing Cider on tap that be pretty sweet, no.

Ohhhhh do you keg? That's the key to the kind of cider I like. Ferment dry, dilute and backsweeten with about 1/3 as much juice, keg. You can stabilize or filter, but if you refrigerate and drink it fast enough it's fine.

Flavorless vodka means plain vodka. I would go cheap but not cheapest.

For tinctures, get the highest proof vodka you can find and steep whatever ingredient you want - herbs, spice, citrus peels. Strain it and you have a tincture. I would not add juice or sugar to those when you make them.

 

[applescrap]

Thanks eric, do you carbonate it or drink still? I do keg and force carbonate in various ways. So 2qts to backsweet that 6qt or a third of total, obviously I will taste it and dont really care if its a little dry or sweet, just want a starting ratio to work from. Yeah I wondered about potassium sorbate since it's being kegged. And drank fast tee hee
Any thoughts on the shelf life of those tinctures. Thanks again for all your help and look forward to sharing my first results with you.

Honestly I'm going to be drinking this before too long. It has no sugar in it so I don't know why it would need to mellow it's not like it's 12%. And I'm just going to back sweeten it and throw different flavors in it and enjoy it. I like the idea of little bottles because then I can make all kinds of different flavors. But I need to gather some up. I have half a mind to reuse the yeast and just dump some fresh juice in.

This is my kind of Brewing open the bottle and put yeast in and done!

 

[z-bob]

Haha. Make sure your juice bottle has a good grip, not sure I've heard that tip.

What do you guys think of the shake? I mean if I took a wine whip and a drill in there is it going to disturb it any less than shaking?
Why don't we Degas beer?

Is "a good grip on your juice bottle" what the kids are calling it these days?

I usually don't degas wine until after I've racked it off the sediment at least once. I have a gallon of experimental low ABV wine going with bread yeast that I have been sloshing the jug every day or two just to speed it up, but it's not necessary. Degassing after it's been racked helps the yeast settle out faster. Also, CO2 in the finished wine is a fault (unless it's sparkling wine, of course.) This low alcohol (about 8%) wine will be sparkling.

I don't think I've ever degassed apple cider.

 

[Lefou]

I'd have to say dissolved CO2 is more of an issue with wines because of yeast health and a desire for a clear, dry product.
Where beer is concerned CO2 and yeast health isn't really a big issue if you're doing a low ABV ale or lager. On the other hand, if you're doing a barleywine or imperial something-or-other with a high ABV potential, the oxygen is preferred beforehand - not after, because oxidation can adversely affect the more complex chemical compounds present in beer.
Besides, beer is usually preferred in a carbonated state where most good, dry wines are not, so yeast health in the typical ale isn't a concern.

 

[Lefou]

You might laugh, but my first start at making cheap cooking wine for my wife was with a few gallons of Motts apple juice or the white grape juice dosed with champagne yeast or ale yeast.
It's very basic, informative, and somewhat effective. Easily done with a refrigerator and a hydrometer. If you can make a decent beer and nail down the process, making a wine is just as easy. Good wine ... well, that takes some time the typical ale drinker won't worry about.

LOL

 

[Maylar]

I don't think I've ever degassed apple cider.

Me either. But my ciders are expected to sit for 4 months before drinking.

Stirring the lees keeps it in suspension and makes the ferment go quicker. This is the currently accepted protocol for wine and mead, supposedly giving you a cleaner ferment. Some people continue to stir/degas even after fermenting is completed, allowing the yeast to "clean up after themselves" which gets you to a drinkable beverage with less aging. I'm gonna try that with my next mead.

But for cider, my current process is to rack off the lees at about 1/2 gravity to reduce the yeast biomass and slow down the ferment. I find that this leaves more apple flavor and aroma and depending on temperature can even leave some residual sweetness.

The great thing about this forum is that we get to experiment, try stuff, and report back to the community. The hobby benefits from our experiences.

 

[applescrap]

^^I agree and thats my plan. Yeast nutrient, oops next time, and degas so I can drink it quicker. Thats my evil plan anyway. Ordered wood too! Cant wait to throw some vodka wood tincture, brown sugar and cinnamon tincture in it. I agree with the joy of sharing results, I am willing to experiment and report back. It smells great like apple cider really. Plenty of gas, squeezed my juice bottle grip and swirled it around and it passed plenty of gas, tee hee. Figured I would stop swirling at some point but glad to hear you can go after fermentation.

 

[applescrap]

The swirling sucks at degassing. Shake and open cap to release gets it done. Haha, the slight odor of a rhinos rump is clearly evident from one bottle. They are clearing up beautifully.

 

[Maylar]

Toll ya.

 

[applescrap]

It's possible that the sulfur smell was the Brewer no whatever I thought I smelled is gone. No sulfur smell at all and it really if anything it just smells like apple juice intensified. One shake each bottle maybe two and I think all the gas is out. I've swirled or shook them and Degased everyday. Fermentation is clearly over. It went from cloudy to lighter. Oddly enough the yeast ring on the bottom is not moving, even when shaked! All this shaking and carrying on its harder than makinkg beer. Third pic shows brand

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[applescrap]

Day late, dollar short

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[z-bob]

It's possible that the sulfur smell was the Brewer no whatever I thought I smelled is gone. No sulfur smell at all and it really if anything it just smells like apple juice intensified. One shake each bottle maybe two and I think all the gas is out. I've swirled or shook them and Degased everyday. Fermentation is clearly over. It went from cloudy to lighter. Oddly enough the yeast ring on the bottom is not moving, even when shaked! All this shaking and carrying on its harder than makinkg beer.

It can be if you want it to

 

[Drewed]

Oddly enough the yeast ring on the bottom is not moving, even when shaked! All this shaking and carrying on its harder than makinkg beer. Third pic shows brand

Shake harder! Lol

Did you ferment those with out an air lock?

 

[tallanwt]

Started my 1st batch of cider-used 6gl Kirkland apple juice OG 1.050 and pitched a pack of WLP090 yeast
Fermented for 14 days Gravity chk @ 1.020, temp 65-72F
Expected FG of 1.010
Racked to another carboy and repitched another pack of yeast
Is this typical for a cider?

 

[Yooper]

Why are you shaking the cider? You'll oxidize it quickly, especially with that much headspace. Leave it alone- let it clear and don't ruin it before you get a chance to bottle it!

 

[applescrap]

Yes, but no too.
1.You may have better luck with finding the cheap juice where you are at. By me it is all a "blend" and most of it is preserved. Simply Apple is about I can find that isn't loaded with a benzoate or sorbate. My local apple orchards, the one that actually press their own juice are often only exposed to UV light.
2. Pitch rates do matter. Uber under pitching is a very bad thing.
3. How do you know when your cider is done fermenting if you take gravity readings? How do you match a previous batch when back sweetining if you don't have a final gravity?

I'm not saying you can't do it the other way, I just saying it is not the best way.

John palmer, and I have heard him say it on podcasts, says brewing is a blend of art and science. I agree with him. Considering what I am planning to do with this, any fairly flavorable juice should do. The pitch is fine if one pack is good for 5 gallons. And take a look at those pictures, thats how I know its done. It looks it, smells it, and is done. I am thinking about using the sorbate, cold crashing it, dumping it in another container, hitting it with some oak, cinnamon, and orange drinking it and then doing that again.

 

[applescrap]

Shake harder! Lol

Did you ferment those with out an air lock?

No i left the cap loose on the caboose. Sounded good.

Anyways figured it was a good idea, I mean why not, I was planning on degasing it anyways.

 

[applescrap]

Started my 1st batch of cider-used 6gl Kirkland apple juice OG 1.050 and pitched a pack of WLP090 yeast
Fermented for 14 days Gravity chk @ 1.020, temp 65-72F
Expected FG of 1.010
Racked to another carboy and repitched another pack of yeast
Is this typical for a cider?

Hey, you get off my thread. Haha, no seriously I dont know. I have never used a hydrometer, I dont know how to be honest.

 

[applescrap]

Why are you shaking the cider? You'll oxidize it quickly, especially with that much headspace. Leave it alone- let it clear and don't ruin it before you get a chance to bottle it!

I was hoping you would offer some of your knowledge, ideas, or opinions yooper. Thanks. I figured I would degas for a few reasons. Someone at Northern Brewer told me it was a good idea if I wanted to drink it quicker. So that got me thinking and I saw the nhbc sticky and it mentioned the degas tips from the winners. Next, I thought I saw you mention shaking something was ok for degas. And I figured one degas's wine and mead so I figured I would try it. Dont have a wine whip but that thing is pretty aggressive, so agitation must be ok, I thought. Massive amounts of co2 have come out of each bottle every day. Smells great, idk, guess leave it alone now. Wonder if I could cold crash, sorbate, and flavor in jug and then just enjoy by pouring carefully as the trub wouldnt even come off with shaking! I know, not very traditional but what do you think?

 

[Maylar]

Swirl gently if you feel you must (pun). Don't shake. Air at this stage is NOT good. I've never degassed cider.

 

[ericbw]

I was hoping you would offer some of your knowledge, ideas, or opinions yooper. Thanks. I figured I would degas for a few reasons. Someone at Northern Brewer told me it was a good idea if I wanted to drink it quicker. So that got me thinking and I saw the nhbc sticky and it mentioned the degas tips from the winners. Next, I thought I saw you mention shaking something was ok for degas. And I figured one degas's wine and mead so I figured I would try it. Dont have a wine whip but that thing is pretty aggressive, so agitation must be ok, I thought. Massive amounts of co2 have come out of each bottle every day. Smells great, idk, guess leave it alone now. Wonder if I could cold crash, sorbate, and flavor in jug and then just enjoy by pouring carefully as the trub wouldnt even come off with shaking! I know, not very traditional but what do you think?

When you degas wine, you're also usually adding some kind of sulfite like campden tablets. That helps to keep the wine from oxidizing. I guess you could do that with cider if you really want to shake it.

Let it sit now until it's clear. But I would still "burp' the bottles just to keep them from exploding.

Cider making is kind of a cross between beer and wine, just like the result is a cross between them.

 

[applescrap]

Chop and brew ep. 21. Award winning cider and mead brewer mino choi states he shakes cider and meads in sealed bucket. He says its like its in a dirty diaper. He says he does this 15 times a day. Kind of funny he looks like an asian version of me. I heard a podcast with him once I recall now where he said that too. He apparently is the first person to score a perfect score at nhbc or some contest like that on his first entry ever. If I recall he ages things as well, like in the year long range. In the video he alludes to quick making of cider. Havent finished watching yet.

 

[z-bob]

If you're not removing the lid (just loosening it) before you shake it, there's not much risk of oxidation -- there's no oxygen in the bottle, it has all been forced out. It also might speed the process up a little by getting rid of CO2 and keeping the yeast rousted. It also might not really do much of anything

If it makes you happy, go for it. But you'll accomplish the same thing just swirling it every couple of days, and almost the same thing by leaving it alone. If you are removing the lid and giving the cider a good whipping, stop it. That really might oxidize it because air will sneak in the top while you're doing all that.

 

[Yooper]

If you're not removing the lid (just loosening it) before you shake it, there's not much risk of oxidation -- there's no oxygen in the bottle, it has all been forced out. It also might speed the process up a little by getting rid of CO2 and keeping the yeast rousted. It also might not really do much of anything

If it makes you happy, go for it. But you'll accomplish the same thing just swirling it every couple of days, and almost the same thing by leaving it alone. If you are removing the lid and giving the cider a good whipping, stop it. That really might oxidize it because air will sneak in the top while you're doing all that.

That's not true- the ideal gas law, and the rest of the laws of physics will show you that gasses seek equilibrium. There is oxygen in the bottle, along with nitrogen, co2, etc- because that's what's in the air.

If degassing is done, and it's not usually done for lower ABV things like cider, it's done only during very active fermentation. During active fermentation, c02 is being produced at a high rate so it does have a protective effect and stirring/degassing can be done then.

Anyway, the amount of headspace especially is a concern along with the shaking.

 

[z-bob]

I don't think the gas partial pressures apply while CO2 is being given off because the CO2 is being forced out of the bottle faster than the O2 and N2 can diffuse in. The air is trying to get in but it has to diffuse "up stream" and I don't see that happening until the fermentation slows ways down. And by then, you're about done.

I could be wrong. Also the headspace is full of CO2 unless he takes the lid off, and even then it's mostly CO2.