Muddy Creek Brewing Co. Brewery Build- Start to Finish Thread

[MuddyCreek]

Sorry I haven't had time to answer everything yet. I had to take my wife to the Dr. yesterday. She's been experiencing a bunch of migraines in the last week and we needed to take her in suddenly. Fortunately there's nothing wrong neurologically.

I've been asked a couple questions about scaling, one on PM and another here I think.

To be clear, I've promised I'll be honest from the outset. I'm a newbie to the large-scale brewing scene. So take my answers with a grain of salt, shall we?

My efficiency has been a bit low. I believe there are a number of reasons for this, mostly based on our being underpowered right now. There are some delays in the brewing cycle, most notably between the transfer to BK after mashing and sparging before the boil begins. This is due to our seriously undersized burners which we are still waiting on.

We are also waiting on proper fittings for our chiller. In the meantime I'm using the HLT as a chiller. It works but it's slow. That means it takes an extraordinarily long time to get the boiled wort (after it finally DOES boil,) down to pitching temp.

Of course the chilling situation doesn't really have any effect on our pre-boil efficiency. I've been getting around 75% on the big tanks brewing half batches. I'd like to see a better number obviously. I'm planning on sitting in with another local brewer this weekend and watching him brew to see if I can pick up on anything and maybe find where I'm making some mistakes.

Another part of our overall inefficiency which will just take time to work out and get better with is understanding our tanks and hoses. We haven't hard-plumbed yet because we want to make sure we're happy with where everything is at. So we're moving transfer hoses everywhere, some of which are pretty long and therefore fill up with lots of beer. So at the end of a brew day we end up losing a fair amount of beer in the hoses along with a good chunk in the bottom of the BK and the Mash Tun that didn't quite come out while we were transferring.

So, with our 10 bbl system doing a 1/2 batch we lose 20 or 30 gallons of beer along with what we are going to lose in the fermenters which kinda sucks. You know... The suck. Just stuff we have to learn and get better with as we brew more and more batches. New equipment, that sort of thing.

So, all that said...

Scaling up, I based my scaling on a "guessed" efficiency. I guessed 75% for my first batch because I wanted to be really conservative. I wasn't far off. ;-) I simply scaled up THE GRAIN VALUES from my old tried and true 5 gallon recipes based on the efficiency scale.

As a result I ended up hitting my numbers right on with my first brew. My second was off by a fair bit though and I had to fix it with DME. My third and fourth batches were dead on however. So it seems that method worked alright for me.

So what I'm saying is that I didn't seem to have any problems scaling up my MALT linearly using efficiency and my expected output.

Now, hops is an entirely different critter.

I just used the formulae below to figure out my hops. It seems pretty accurate and compared to the Pro Mash is very close (although Pro Mash comes in just a little lower in IBUs which I personally think is wrong. Don't hate me. I know I'm new...)

You probably recognize this formula, it's pretty standard for calculating IBUs

AAU = Hops AA * Weight

U = Time in boil [Minutes] cross referenced by F [factor determined by wort gravity]

CC = Metric Conversion Constant [75]

V = Volume of boiled wort to which hops is exposed

IBU = (AAU * U * CC) / V

* Note, I use full boils. This calculation doesn't work with the "Hop Tea and Lauter" method. That's a different calculation.

I assume most of you have the table that shows the U(tilizatioin) factors. This works pretty well and showed immediately why some of my pilot system batches were really low on the hops bite. I was just doing linear scaling on an IPA from 5 gallons to 40 and that was really really wrong.

I built a spreadsheet that shows you immediately where you need to up your various values to get the right IBUs you want. It also shows you how to get the right additions from the bittering, flavor and aroma additions to match your original design from the smaller batch.

So, for what it's worth. I hope that answers some questions. I'm still working on efficiency. It seems as though Malt scales fairly well, hops not so much. But, Damn if those math teachers weren't on to something. You really CAN use it in everyday life.

 

[MuddyCreek]

Sorry Helly and Colo, I see I've missed your questions.

We have the slurry from earlier batches but we also order new yeast from our suppliers. Since we are planning on brewing on weekends we have time to do starters from the slurry we have. Normally that should provide us with enough viable yeast to pitch on brew days.

However, we also order new yeast from our suppliers. When we don't have enough yeast ready from our slurry/starters we can pitch from our stores to make up the difference.

Helly, The other brewery in town initially started out with only 1 yeast strain for all their products. Subsequently it was really quite difficult to differentiate between their beer styles, particularly after the yeast got "tired".

We don't want to fall into that trap. We definitely want our beers to have unique characteristics and attitudes. That's why we've chosen different yeast strains. While it will be a bit of a challenge to maintain all those strains we have a partner who's particular talent is yeast management and propagation. I expect he'll be able to keep us well covered.

 

[Helly]

Thanks for continuing to answer all the questions and good luck with the opening. I hope your wife is feeling better and I can't wait to get out West to check the place out.

 

[MuddyCreek]

Wow... Do I feel better.

We've got a nationally recognized brewery just down the road. He's won some silver and gold hardware and he happens to be a really nice fella. If you ever get a chance to visit Phillipsburg Brewing Company in Montana, do it.

Anyway I called Mike Elliot, their head brewer yesterday to whine about my efficiency problems and ask if he had any suggestions. He asked about my grist ratio, my gravity etc. and pretty quickly let me know that I wasn't "all that far off". I was a little low but not "deep ****" low. So that made me feel a little better.

Even better, Mike offered to come spend a day with me brewing when we both have some time. That's just the kind of thing that carries over from home-brewing into professional brewing guys. I've seen it in all but one brewery. Everyone is just flat out helpful and will bend over backward to help out another brewery.

So, should you ever choose to go professional, just keep in mind that you've got a long legacy of "paying it forward" to maintain. Ours is not a "competitive" but a collaborative profession. We make beer and beer makes people happy. Do we want to make a buck? Sure, but a buck's going to be made. Mike may be one of the best brewers in the state (one of the most prolific brewing states in the country, btw,) and he just up and offered to come over, watch my processes, help out and give me pointers to get me on the right track.

By the way, Mike pointed out that the reason my efficiency was so low for the last beer was because of the high gravity. (That and what he speculated was a thinner grist than he recommended for our water chemistry in the area.) He suggested thickening the mash and said he would have been really happy with a 70% efficiency at that high an OG. Given his talent, I'll take 65% as a newb on his 4th starter batch.

Anyway, just wanted to give you my "feel-good" story of the week. I hope to head out to P-Burgh this weekend and visit with Mike at his brewery, get a tour check out his crush (They use the same mill as we do,) and just visit with him.

We're also kegging our first test batch and starting to age it out to see how it turns out. Here's hoping it ages nicely.

 

[MuddyCreek]

Just got our big grain shipment in this afternoon. That's enough for 5 (full) batches of beer. We also finished our spiffy new grain storage system just in time to hold the bulk of our grain. (Although it's not quite big enough to hold ALL this grain right now.)

So, Am left with a bit of a dilemma. I WAS going to do some simple work this weekend. (Kegging some Blonde Ale. Moving some other stuff to cold-crash.) But now I have all my grain and hops in so I could theoretically brew a final test-batch of our flagship product Muddy Creek Chocolate Oatmeal Stout.

Hmmm. Decisions, decisions...

I'd have to brew on Sunday. That's the thing.

 

[Dbaudio]

Thanks for the updates - we'll drop in & visit in the spring. BTW I'm brewing an Oatmeal Stout on Sunday too.

 

[MuddyCreek]

So much work...

Rinsing, Washing, Sanitizing and then Filling Kegs.

Why?

Why is it so hard?

(Because you couldn't afford a 7.5 to 10k Keg cleaner and filler...)

That is all.

P.S. How did you all spend YOUR weekend?

 

[Punity]

Worrying about the size of the keg washer I'm going to need haha

 

[MuddyCreek]

Well, my business partner has been calling around to the various breweries in the area and he's worried that we're going to go through 3 bbls a day at opening.

So... keep that in mind.

 

[Punity]

Crap ok bigger then I projected....or train a monkey to work 24/7

 

[MrTux]

I just spent the last hour reading this entire thread with links and looking stuff up. Relishing in the fact I have done brew work but nothing compared to what you and your team is experiencing, thank gawd!
All I can say is, what a journey. After successfully starting a few business of my own, I know the hell your going through. But on the bright side, your business should see much better payoffs than mine, I just sold them at a profit. You get to socialize and drink! I wish you folks well and I'll plan a trip out. I hate skiing, so the beer and company will be well worth the trip. Cheers!

 

[MuddyCreek]

Today's "brew talk"

Hops Contracts, or as I like to call them, deals with the Devil.

As I sit here, looking over the pages that sign my soul away for the next N years (programmer lingo) to some far away retailer for the rights to buy a specified poundage of hops per year I can't help but wonder "Why do you people love I.P.A.s so damn well?"

I also wonder when the Amarillo and Citra hops growers are going to get themselves caught up to the insane demand that's currently making them bazillionaires. Sure, you can sort of cover your butt with substitute hops but honestly I find that Amarillo is the key ingredient for one of my products and I am loathe to go without it. However the very best price I can find it right now at spot purchases is exorbitant.

That leaves me with no choice but to ratchet back my Amarillo and up some substitute hops in the hope of coming up with a reasonable substitute that passes muster. The lesson... make the deal with the devil and get your hops contracts in order sooner than later.

Sure, all those established brewers KNOW this. They'e smiling now and kindly offering their hops overages to new guys like me. But if you don't want to be the poor cousin, always wearing the hand-me-down last year's hops... Get a contract sooner than later.

Or... go start an Amarillo farm and become my new best friend, you know... in two years.

 

[Punity]

Hop Contracts booooo

 

[MuddyCreek]

I know you've been photo starved. I'll try to snap some photos tonight, honest I will.

We're doing our first interviews tonight for a Brewer's Assistant. Basically it's a hard-labor sentence with a chance for parole. We need somebody to help out around the brewery, particularly on brew days. We are falling behind and need to get a BUNCH of beer brewed, fermented, carbed and kegged.

That means I need some more help. To that end we have put out a listing for some assistants and starting tonight we will be interviewing 7 different candidates who are foolishly willing to spend anywhere from 20 to 40 hours a week (depending on whether we hire a couple part-timers or a full-timer,) to come in and share my joys and frustrations.

Most of you know this, but brewing is alot like being a glorified janitor. Mostly, you clean stuff. Occasionally you get to actually do the "brewing part". The rest of the time is tracking and ordering chemicals or maintaining records for the State and Feds.

Last night I moved some beer into secondary. I need to move a ton more by Friday so I can brew this weekend. I need to significantly tighten up my brew-to-keg schedule. I've been a bit lax on it and I can already tell in one of my test batches that it won't do. I'm not convinced we'll have to dump it all out but my tasters will have to check it out after it's all carbed up before we're completely certain.

Anyway, pictures of the upgraded tasting room tonight and where we're at in the brewery as well if I get finished with the interviews in time. (We're scheduled to interview until 8:00 tonight.)

Wish us luck.

 

[jiMithing83]

Good luck and please do post pics when you get a chance, I'm excited to see how everything turned out in the tasting room

 

[plumber_bob]

I'd be one of them fools you're gonna interview if you lived closer.:rockin:

Good luck and please get them photos up.

Ain't that a 30 bbl operation? Seems like you said it would be.

pb

 

[MuddyCreek]

No, Bob. It's a 10 bbl.

We can over-clock it a bit. Technically we can fit 400 gallons in the BK and boil down to around 360, but we'd still lose some wort in transfer etc. So there you have it.

We interviewed 7 people, one of whom is apparently a subscriber here. All our interviews were good. I wish we could hire everyone. We are doing background criminal and reference checks today and I'll be making calls later in the afternoon and evening to let folks know.

I admit it was a surprising process. When you look at resumes you sort of get a feel for a person you think is going to be a good match and then once the interviews start BOOM, everything switches up and suddenly you've got a whole new set of dynamics you're working with. Ultimately our choices swayed completely away from what we "expected" based on simple resume trolling.

I think we'll be pretty happy though. (Assuming the reference checks all come back alright. But one has to assume the candidates are going to give us people who will give them decent references.)

I'm brewing this weekend. I swear on my mother that we'll document the process with photos and some video and post it. You'll finally get to see our ugly junk in action.

(Let's not take that out of context you animals.)

 

[MuddyCreek]

So done with this Under-Powered thing...
Took me all day to brew my stout this weekend, but I hit my numbers dead on at the end of it. Still man it was a loooong day.

But, as promised I took some photos of our ugly junk. I give you The 10 bbl system in action... (Kinda.)

The photos more or less go in order, showing the our Walter White bibs, the grain storage bins, the mill, one of my assistants Scott, our and the almost 600 lbs of grain needed to make a batch of beer. Then there's the mashing, somewhere is a shot of the HERM return line from the HLT to the Mash tun.

I also have a shot of Scott, moving fermented beer into the cold-crash tank so it can further settle out I also have a photo of a pint of blonde ale.

I have a few more photos around. One shows some kegs of Blonde Ale (Dirty Blonde) put to bed and happily aging in the aging room. It's now ready to go upstairs to the tasting cooler. I've also got a photo of the brewery entertainment system. (My laptop, attached to a couple external speakers and Pandora.) I just filled 7 more kegs of Wheat Ale (Good Time) yesterday. It was a small test batch to go with the 9 kegs of Dirty Blonde.

I have just under 6 bbls of Skinny Cow I.P.A. in Cold-Crash which will need to be kegged next weekend. I need to move 6 more barrels of No Paddle Amber to cold crash tonight.

This weekend the 5 beer cycle will have finished and I'm back to Dirty Blonde only with full batches.

We hired a new assistant so we'll start training. Hopefully things will be slightly more manageable.

 

[plumber_bob]

If it weren't for knowing the work and headaches it took to get things to were they are,... I'd be drooling more. But I'm impressed!
Ya'll did a great job!!!

Post more pics every chance you get!

pb

 

[JINKS]

I'm brewing this weekend. I swear on my mother that we'll document the process with photos and some video and post it. You'll finally get to see our ugly junk in action.

(Let's not take that out of context you animals.)

I may have missed the post, but when do you officially open to the public? I'm looking to drive over with a couple of friends, sample your wares and take home a few growlers of my favorites.

 

[MuddyCreek]

Jinks, there's a rule about opening a brewery that I believed I would beat when I got started...

Always plan on spending twice as much and taking twice as long.

I believed I could come in under budget and open sooner because I had a great building and found some really inexpensive brewing equipment.

Turns out I've spent twice as much as I planned and it's taking me about twice as long as I planned...

We hope to open around Valentine's day. That's HOPE with capital letters. That's IF I can get enough beer brewed and aging and IF the upstairs partner can get the tasting room finished.

Those are some mighty big IF's. But we're working our butt's off man. Working them off like crazy. If you want to be safe. Plan for March. And St. Patty's day in Butte is ALWAYS a good time.

 

[JINKS]

Jinks, there's a rule about opening a brewery that I believed I would beat when I got started...

Always plan on spending twice as much and taking twice as long.

I believed I could come in under budget and open sooner because I had a great building and found some really inexpensive brewing equipment.

Turns out I've spent twice as much as I planned and it's taking me about twice as long as I planned...

We hope to open around Valentine's day. That's HOPE with capital letters. That's IF I can get enough beer brewed and aging and IF the upstairs partner can get the tasting room finished.

Those are some mighty big IF's. But we're working our butt's off man. Working them off like crazy. If you want to be safe. Plan for March. And St. Patty's day in Butte is ALWAYS a good time.

Funny you mentioned Butte and St. Patty's day and safe all in one sentence.lol

To me, a veteran (victim) of many Butte celebrations, nothing is safe on that day, especially brain cells. I've lost loves, clothes, common sense, and one time lunch in Butte on that particular day.

 

[JINKS]

I should mention that I plan on doing it all again, this year too. Too much fun to only do 20 or 25 times.

 

[Helloworld]

So done with this Under-Powered thing...
Took me all day to brew my stout this weekend, but I hit my numbers dead on at the end of it. Still man it was a loooong day.

I am guessing you explained this earlier in the thread, but seeing as how it has become 30 pages long, could you give a brief run down of what the issue is? The burners you bought aren't strong enough or something?

 

[MuddyCreek]

Well...

We have an electric E-Herm System. However we aren't being given access to enough of the 800 Amp service in the basement to power our elements. This is due to code issues. If we want to spend around 40k to upgrade our electrical service we can put in another 400 amps into the building. Then we'd need to spend another 20 to 40k on a control panel to manage the power. (That kinda wipes us out on the electric brewery budgeting line item...)

Therefore we came up with a hybrid system. We use a tankless water heater to help fill the HLT with already heated water. That gets us going. Then we use our pathetically underpowered (for now) electrical elements to heat the HLT to a decent temperature. Meanwhile we use our brewery pump to circulate the water in the MLT to get our HERM going.

As you can imagine, this is PAINFULLY slow. Therefore we had natural gas lines brought in. (We already had natural gas in the brewery.) So we planned on putting some natural gas burners under the HLT and BK until we can get some decent electrical elements lined up after we are up and running and can afford to upgrade the electrical service.

Unfortunately, one does not simply plug in a high-powered natural gas burner. There are safety precautions to consider etc. So... in the meantime we are using multiple propane burners under our HLT to get it to temp. This gets our water heated up in relatively short order. (Relatively being a "relative" term.) Then with the tankless filling our MLT with filtered water coming through our filtration system we can get the Mash water up to strike temp within about 3 or 4 hours of starting. (I promised I'd be truthful, no matter how much it hurts.)

We've insulated the MLT and the BK so once they get to temp they hold very nicely. So once I mash in, things go pretty well for the most part. During the mash, I'm continuing to heat the water in the HLT with the elemnts (which WILL heat the water, just slowly... so it's nice and hot for mash out and sparge.

Then we transfer over to the BK. We fire up Propane burners over there. Fortunately the wort is already pretty warm so the heating process to boil isn't quite so long but it still takes quite a while to get 220 to 300 gallons of wort to boil. This has caused any number of frustrations.

Once that happens we set the timer and add our additions.

All in all, it's a long day.

However I did get a photo from my plumber today. He HAS a natural gas burner for me that can do 160,000 btus. We need to get a heat shield around it so it doesn't snake out around the sides of the kettle but once that's done it should dramatically speed things up.

The whole thing started with a miscommunication with our electrical contractors and by the time it was resolved we were too far down the path to easily go back. As it is we have a great setup for getting started and once we are open and have some revenue we can go back and up the electrical service. At that time we'll have a Kal system all ready for our pilot brewery and we'll have some extra gas in the brewery for our side products like Root Beer, Lemonade and Ginger Beer.

So, currently we're frankensteined like you can't believe but we're getting by and hopefully this weekend we'll implement two more updates that will help us speed up even more.

A) We should have at least 1 of the natural gas burners, which I'll put under the Brew Kettle to get our boil going quickly and vigorously.

B) We have new connections that will allow us to connect the HLT to the tankless hot water heater so we can fill it the night before and "turn on" at say 4:00 a.m. and start pre-heating before I come in. That way the HLT can be up to temp by the time I arrive in the morning instead of just getting started. We hope to actually put a 2nd leg in that will also connect the MLT as well so both tanks are heated up by the time I arrive. That would save literally 5 or 6 hours on my brew schedule which obviously would make my F'n day.

Make my F'n Day! (That simply bore repeating.)

It's a miracle we've hit our numbers as well as we have. We had one test brew, Good Time Wheat Ale that was ridiculously off on gravity. We were massively low and I had to add 25 lbs of DME and 18 more LME to get the pre boil gravity up to specs. And then we had to boil for quite a bit longer than usual to get to the right pre-pitching gravity.

That lead to some guesswork with the hops addition timing. (I am new to this.) and subsequently that test batch of Good Time is just a little bit more bitter than it ought to be. Although it's already starting to mellow out. I think once it sits for a month or so it will be alright. I'll have to run it by the tasters to see what they think ultimately.

So... There is a loooong answer to a short question. However, as promised. I'll tell you the truth about starting up. Painful as it may sometimes be. Again though, I want to stress... 5 test batches - 4 of them have hit the numbers. And all of them have come out well excepting that extra bit of bitterness in the Wheat Ale which may mellow out acceptably in the next 3 or 4 weeks.

 

[jiMithing83]

You are being brutally honest and it sounds like a giant pain in the ass, but I can't lie... it doesn't deter me at all from wanting to do this at some point in the future. Cheers man.

 

[MuddyCreek]

Today's a good day. (Well, technically yesterday, but you know.)

The new brewer's assistant came in for her first day. (Yep, she's a young lady.) We got her paperwork processed and spent about an hour familiarizing her with the brewery.

Most importantly though. I got 3 (count em THREE) brand new natural gas burners. Each of which are capable of 160,000 btu's of ass-kicking liquor heating, wort-boiling power!

Furthermore, we have connectors on our tankless heater now that will allow us to start the HLT recirculating at say, 3:00 or 4:00 a.m. so I can have the HLT all ready to go when I show up at 6:00 or 7:00 a.m. on Saturday instead of having to wait until 12:00 or 1:00.

I can't tell you how happy that makes me. I expect we're going to have a MUCH better Saturday this week. To celebrate we're doing a full batch of Dirty Blonde.

Very excited to see how this weekend goes. I also plan on kegging the I.P.A. and moving the Muddy Creek we brewed last Saturday to cold crash by Monday or Tuesday. By next weekend we should have our brite tanks up and running and the Muddy Creek will go directly to brite tank.

By NEXT weekend, (If this weekend goes well,) we may start double-batching. And by that I mean brewing on both Saturday and Sunday. We'll see how it goes.

 

[MuddyCreek]

By the way, I can't take any credit for this. It was my wife's idea. She gets sole Kudo's for it.

Those of you who are thinking about starting a brewery. Especially those of you who have friends in the film industry. (I have friends who are film-makers and I am absolutely KICKING myself right now.)

Consider the idea of giving up all concepts of personal privacy and giving in to the camera. Let your film acquaintances shoot a reality show about starting up a micro brewery. Shoot everything from the beginning napkin drawings to the meetings with contractors to the painful discussions with your spouse about how it isn't going to take every hour of your life.

Go through the painful process of hobbling together the brewery, patching things up, scraping every dime together and then making your money go as far as it can. Live through the terror or realizing that your scaled up batches taste NOTHING like your smaller batches. Watch the faces of more experienced brewers as they give you that "look" as they talk to you and you realize they realize that you realize you're in over your head.

Then watch as they roll up their sleeves and start helping you figure things out and walk you through stuff.

Have them film all the work, the long hours, the bleary eyes, the broken equipment, the spills, the mopping. the endless mopping.

Have them film you coming up with an ad-hoc keg cleaner and filler. See the glee when a new piece of equipment arrives. Then watch as that new piece of equipment sits and gathers dust because you're either not sure how to use it or not ready to use it yet.

Finally, watch as your batches finally start to taste just a little bit more right each time. Watch as your carb levels even out, as your keg cleaner/filler actually WORKS.

Feel the joy as your dumb-waiter lifts the first keg up to the tasting room. Get some more mopping on camera. Let the film people do all the editing. Hopefully not too much fighting is left in the footage. Hopefully you didn't have to fire anybody or at least not too many people.

Best of all - When it's all done, you may just find that you can split the returns on the resultant show with the film-makers. And it can help cover some of the brewery funding.

Course you need to know somebody who's kinda plugged in with the TV/Film industry. Otherwise you're just going to make "How I build a brewery" DVD's which may ALSO have a market among guys and gals like us who wouldn't mind seeing a decently edited min-series about the process, the permits, the pitfalls that someone went through getting a brewery up and running.

Just a thought. Take it as you will. I just felt it was a good idea that WE actually could have implemented since we have the resources available to us. We just didn't even think of it. But BELIEVE me. There's been PLENTY of drama through this process to make for must-watch television.

EDIT. Of course you'd have to put up with all that distraction and those cameras all the time... There's a trade-off to consider.

 

[Helly]

I'd buy that dvd. Thanks for the updates. Good luck with the new burners.

 

[MuddyCreek]

Really excited about the new burners.

Kid in a candy story excited...