Muddy Creek Brewery: Hot Break!

[ViciousFishes]

Congrats! Have been missing your updates

 

[jiMithing83]

Awesome news brother, glad to see you're getting recognized for all your hard work so early in your journey

 

[MuddyCreek]

We're just about finished putting together the new brewing system. We're working on getting the flow control working properly and a couple parts didn't come in the first shipment but should be here by Saturday. I'll try to get some photos up.

As I said, it's smaller than our original system. However it's much more agile. We can ultimately brew quite a bit more on this system and with a smaller footprint and at a reduced cost in terms of utilities and time. Saturday we'll be doing our inaugural batch (Storm the Door Vanilla Porter) We ought to be able to knock it out from start to finish in about 8 hours. (Previously it would have taken us closer to 12 or even 15 hours).

So instead of brewing twice a week, we'll move up to 4 or 5 times a week and add a couple fermentors into the pipeline. The fermentation schedule will become more of a challenge, but with the increase in distribution we're shooting for it's a good problem to have.

Well, as I've said before, everyone's got a plan until they get punched in the face.

 

[MuddyCreek]

It's comin' up on Derby Night!

The Copper City Queens are going to be representing again here in town and we'll be serving some tasty beverages. I think we may see about rolling out the Black Ice blackberry ale if it's ready but we'll have to see.

In other news, we have our brewing system (almost) ready to go. We're fighting with the flow meter. The solenoids weren't getting power to them due to some wiring voodoo and when we got THAT figured out, the electronic counting stopped working, making the electronic flow-meter kinda useless. So we're trying to get THAT sorted out.

However, once all that is finished we can finally initiate our inaugural brew on the darn thing. Obviously we've been really eager to do it. It's beginning to look like a Sunday brew for us. I'll be sure to take some pictures and perhaps even a video. (complete with nude models, obviously.)

 

[MuddyCreek]

Sweet Mother of God!

What a day! We had some challenges. We did get through the brew day on the new system though. I experienced the worst stuck mash I've ever seen in my freaking LIFE! However we managed to get through that. Eventually.

Then, just when we thought we MIGHT get through the day - our sump pump crapped out on us. sigh... talk about a rough day at the office.

On the "good news" front, however the wort we brewed on Sunday turned out very well. We had much better than usual efficiency, although we did not get the volume we wanted ultimately. So we have a BETTER brewday to look forward to next time.

We started with the (quickly becoming famous) Storm the Door Porter and we're going to do Crazy Beautiful Pale Ale next. It ought to be an exciting "end of week" for us as we do that and another run of porter as we move toward the weekend.

I will get some photos up. The last brew was too hectic to do so.

 

[wyowolf]

totally agree with this,
we just went to a local brewery here, overall was nice, but the LOUD Jimmy buffet wannabe TOTALLY ruined the experience... no where to go in or outside that you could actually talk in a normal voice... one dude with a guitar.

It's nice to see you guys recognize that. This is actually what deters me from frequenting places that have bands. Don't misunderstand, I'm a hard core loud rock lover (my lack of hearing can attest to it) but when I go to a taproom, background music is best. I go to a concert for music, I go to a taproom/bar for beer and conversation. It's almost like wanting to be a home like atmosphere, hanging with friends, knockin back a few brews and solving the problems of the world.

 

[MuddyCreek]

Yep, we'll go to the GABF again, although we won't be pouring at this one again. We aren't quite ready to distribute regionally yet so it doesn't quite make sense for us to pour.

Let's say we poured at GABF. Let's say, just for hog-wild crazy ass dream's sake that we even medaled for something. (Of course the chances of that are slim to none, but let's just get stupid crazy and dream for a minute...)

So we're pouring, we're havin' a ball, people like our beer and suddenly we even medal!

Next thing we know people from all over want our beer. People are clamoring for say, Storm the Door Porter and we simply can't deliver it. We don't have the infrastructure in place yet to deliver it all across Montana just yet, let alone Washington, Idaho, Oregon, California, Colorado etc.

So, there isn't tremendous upside just yet in pouring at the festival other than super feel-good ness because people really like your beer. And you can get that at any number of more regional festivals where there's a chance you actually CAN support the local demand for your product should that need arise.

So - even though you didn't actually ask the full question, me being the ******* I am, I answered it.

There are SO many great sessions and wonderful brewers and contacts to meet at the GABF, let alone some really good beers to try (as well as some pretty weird ones). It's a super fun trip to make and well worth the long green. And I get a chance to see Punity again, assuming he can make it this year what with the new venture and all.

 

[Punity]

Well if "someone" was pouring at GABF then there would be alot of volunteers needed.....I know four arms that could help in that venture. Also there's always a tap open in Washington if you ever want to break into the territory.

 

[Punity]

Honestly thought it's a logistical nightmare that I'm not sure I'll ever want to take on until I've got plenty of people I can pay to do it for me haha.

 

[maxtpower]

subscribed
Cheers!

 

[MuddyCreek]

Well, I'm pretty sure there's no problem getting volunteers to pour at the GABF, but again, one has to consider the end-game.

Now, getting all your beer TO Denver - that's a whole nother problem. (See there's **** to consider folks...) Days and days of pouring, with the Friday and Saturday crowds getting crazy! You go through a TON of kegs. Those have to be transported TO Denver and then stored until you're ready to use them.

Then there's your booth / display area. You have NO idea the marketing that companies put into the GABF. I'm stressin' myself out.

 

[Punity]

And how early you have to send the beer off....jesus man its terrible....but at that point id rather run microstar kegs so i didnt have to worry about getting them back.

 

[brewfun]

Now, getting all your beer TO Denver - that's a whole nother problem. (See there's **** to consider folks...) You go through a TON of kegs. Those have to be transported TO Denver and then stored until you're ready to use them.
...I'm stressin' myself out.

In the desire to relieve some stress, I believe you can use Microstar kegs to send your product, so you don't have to worry about getting them back. This is arranged through the Brewer's Association. Second, most breweries don't serve much more than 10 gallons per brand sent. Being a new brewery, you might get a sweetheart effect, but it's doubtful you'll go beyond 15 gallons. Contact Bradley at the Brewer's Association.

For shipping, you might contact Big Sky as I'm sure they have a truck headed that way. If not them, your local distributors surely know. At least here (California) larger breweries like Stone & Lagunitas ferry small brewery entries for free. You just have to get in before their truck fills up.

You'll find similar services for World Cup, Craft Brewer's Conference and SAVOR, should you wish to participate there, too.

 

[MuddyCreek]

Really? I'm sure we saw more than a 1/2 bbl being served at each booth but of course each brewery had several products. I wonder, brewfun - does somebody track stats for that sort of thing because I would be VERY interested in that. If we knew for instance that we only needed to send one or two kegs of a given product that could make all the difference in the world to us.

I could quite possibly justify sending a few products if we only needed to send 1 or 2 kegs of each. And yes, we know about the shipping options. Big Sky is a possibility and we have a good relationship with them. Again, the same base issues exist for us but, you're right, I have no doubt that if Big Sky is muling their beer down to Denver we could hitch a ride with them pretty reasonably.

Thanks for the suggestions. I greatly appreciate it.

 

[brewfun]

Really? I'm sure we saw more than a 1/2 bbl being served at each booth but of course each brewery had several products. I wonder, brewfun - does somebody track stats for that sort of thing because I would be VERY interested in that.

Just to be clear I'm saying 10 gallons per brand not per brewery. Most breweries are bringing at least 6 brands.

Like any fest, IPA and Blonde styles tend to be the fastest movers, but if you have six or eight products, it takes a lot of pressure off those two. If you do things like ProAm or food pairing, that'll increase the amount of beer you'll send.

You can get stats from the Brewer's Association. There's the GABF page on the subject: http://www.greatamericanbeerfestival.com/brewers/confirmations-and-shipping/#3

There used to be fewer breweries per attendee and the sample sizes used to be larger. So, a lot more beer per person was poured.

Just an opinion, but starting with just the competition and an eye catching booth is the best use of resources. That's plenty to manage without the added hassles of the ProAm, food pairing or hospitality booths. It's easier to grow into those.

 

[MuddyCreek]

So, you all know we switched to a smaller more agile system.

We've brewed on it twice now. The first time was... a bit of a challenge. It was our first run and the system is completely different from our former system. The manufacturer advertises that you can push our a 4 bbl batch in 4 to 4.5 hours. This was very attractive to us as our old system, even after a year of experience took us better than 3 times that to make a 10 bbl batch of beer. (You all should know by now the "underpowered" issues we've had.) I called several references from the company to determine if this claim was true and everyone who was using the system was in fact very pleased with it. They were most pleased with the efficiency and the consistency of the beers they were making. That was what I was most interested in. Of course the 4 to 5 hour time for brewing a batch is also very important.

So, we decided to "scale down" in order to brew smaller batches at a quicker rate. The new system would allow us to double batch on a give day giving us nearly the same amount we generally do with our full sized system. (We truly normally pushed out around 8.5 to 9 bbls in a given batch) or it would allow us to do 4 bbl batches 4 to 5 times a week using 1/2 the day for brewing and the rest of the day for cleaning and other brewery tasks with a couple people at the brewhaus working to manage different brewery chores.

Well, the first day took 13 hours and we produced about 80 gallons of wort. It was a rough day. We didn't panic. It was our first day on the new system. We were just happy we made some beer. And as that beer has now finished fermenting and is ready to carb up, I'm happy to say it's really looking good. We actually chose a really tough beer for our first run. (Probably not our best move, but we had a bit of a pinch and had to brew that particular product.)

Last weekend we brewed our 2nd beer on the system. We held of a couple days and made sure we were well prepared. Things went better. The system itself did fine. Other brewhaus stuff gave us some grief. (Our sump pump is being a pesky little devil and our other brewer had to literally take it completely apart twice and partially apart once during the brew day. This slowed us down a bit.) We also have a bit more work to do finalizing the system in terms of installing the flow meter so we are currently still moving some hoses around that we would ideally have fixed. That takes a bit of time. More frustratingly, our tankless hot water line is attached to the flow meter on the brewing system which means it can't be used for other cleaning needs until the brewing is finished which ALSO slows us down.

Short story, we still have quite a bit of optimization but the days are getting better.

What I CAN tell you definitively, is that our efficiency is up from 70% on the old system to at least 80% to 85% on this one. Over time that will definitely help out on the bottom line. I believe once we get our processes worked out on the new system things will go more smoothly, but since the deal is full disclosure and honesty - I have to admit, it's kinda been a bitch getting things organized with the new system. We're a bit backed up and fighting the good fight to catch up. This is particularly frustrating given the fact that Storm the Door is so darn popular right now. We can't necessarily capitalize as we don't have ANY extra on hand.

I suppose when it rains, it pours.

But that's not exactly what I came to tell you today.

I have noticed that there's a thread on the Colorado Brewing System personal home brew systems. I see quite a few of you are looking at them. It happens we bought one of those for the brewery as a pilot system. We got it because we wanted an exact replica of our 4 bbl system. Yes, that's correct. We purchased the largest available model from Colorado Brewing. We still have our 10 bbl system. We're holding on to that while we learn the new system. I have to say I'm very pleased with the efficiency and if the first batch of Storm the Door (admittedly very small) is any indication, I think we'll be alright. We merely need to get more efficient in terms of our in house processes as to how we USE the system.

Tim of Colorado has been very helpful. He's a tremendous resource. I will keep you abridged on the system and the beer. I promise to faithfully report the value of the system as I see it. Honestly the jury is still out. Our fastest brew day has been somewhere in the zone of 10 hours or so. (A very far cry from 4.5), and our biggest output so far is precisely 4 bbls. However, we've ONLY done 2 batches so far. We'll see how it goes as we move forward. Batch #3 is forthcoming. (Another batch of Storm the Door, hopefully with a bigger yield.)

 

[pretzelb]

Awesome to see someone else using that system. Please post as many details as you feel comfortable with posting. I'm a far cry from getting my Nano brew system dialed in. Poor Tim is probably tired of holding my hand.

 

[MuddyCreek]

The large system uses cross circulation across the two mash tuns / brew kettles if you wish to brew a "big batch". You can also brew two independent batches at the same time if you wish. (That's one of the cool things about the system.)

One of the minor things that's a bit frustrating with the system is that you really have to fiddle with the pump valves to get the flow right between the cross circulation. When you split the mash grains between the two baskets, you are going to get slightly different flow rates between the two no matter what you do. Each pump has a valve at the top of it so you have to vary the flow rate for each to regulate how quickly the flow rate goes in and subsequently out.

The trick is managing the flow rate for each basket in and out so each of them maintain the same amount of mash density throughout the mash process. It's not a trivial process. Each time is a bit different and frankly is seems to require a bit of babysitting. And as you continue through the mash process, your mash tends to settle or float a bit which changes the flow through it. IE more babysitting.

Admittedly, we're early in the usage, but that's one of the things we are learning about the system. The efficiency can't be denied though. We've jumped 10 to 15 percent and we don't even know how to USE this thing yet. I can easily see how we can get up in the high 80's or even the 90s when we know what we're doing.

I WOULD really like to see one of those 4 hour brew days though. That would be AWESOME!

 

[pretzelb]

The large system uses cross circulation across the two mash tuns / brew kettles if you wish to brew a "big batch". You can also brew two independent batches at the same time if you wish. (That's one of the cool things about the system.)

One of the minor things that's a bit frustrating with the system is that you really have to fiddle with the pump valves to get the flow right between the cross circulation. When you split the mash grains between the two baskets, you are going to get slightly different flow rates between the two no matter what you do. Each pump has a valve at the top of it so you have to vary the flow rate for each to regulate how quickly the flow rate goes in and subsequently out.

The trick is managing the flow rate for each basket in and out so each of them maintain the same amount of mash density throughout the mash process. It's not a trivial process. Each time is a bit different and frankly is seems to require a bit of babysitting. And as you continue through the mash process, your mash tends to settle or float a bit which changes the flow through it. IE more babysitting.

Admittedly, we're early in the usage, but that's one of the things we are learning about the system. The efficiency can't be denied though. We've jumped 10 to 15 percent and we don't even know how to USE this thing yet. I can easily see how we can get up in the high 80's or even the 90s when we know what we're doing.

I WOULD really like to see one of those 4 hour brew days though. That would be AWESOME!

I can totally understand your points on the mash. I'm struggling with flow rate and my single vessel. I'm only 3 batches in but if you search on my posts you can see my .. cough ... journey. One thing I can say for sure - don't get that crush too fine. Just don't. It isn't fun. If you care to share your mill crush setting I'd be interested. I'm wondering what to do when I get a heavy wheat recipe.

I would also love to hit those quick brew times. But as much as I'm toying around I can't blame the system yet. I'm still trying to figure out the best way to clean the stupid 20g kettle. 20g isn't much compared to yours but I'm finding it a challenge.

I'm hoping to see some of those efficiency numbers. For now I'm way off. But my water volume numbers were off on the first two batches and then my crush was off on the third. Eventually I should reduce the variables and get closer. At least I hope so.

Are those stainless steel CFCs near the bottom? It seems like all the large commercial systems have them. They look so tiny for the batch size but I assume they work. I almost wonder if I should give up on my plate chiller.

 

[MaryB]

Pressure washer for cleaning maybe? Pull from a tank of brewery cleaner? I can't imagine brewing at that scale myself. 5 gallons is a big enough challenge for me!

 

[MuddyCreek]

We haven't used the CF chillers yet. We have a plate chiller that we use. We use the whirlpool attachment to start cooling the wort a bit, but haven't toyed with the CF chillers yet. We'll get to that in a couple more brews I suspect.

I would NOT abandon your other chilling options just yet. I suspect (suspect, mind you) that the on-board chillers are not nearly adequate to actually chill this amount of wort. I can't imagine they could get 80 or so gallons of wort down to a reasonable pitching temperature at any realistic rate for us.

No, we'll keep our plate chiller thanks.

As for the wheat - Rice hulls. And lots of em! We learned the hard way with our last batch, don't oversoak them either. We let one kettle soak the hulls longer than the other and it got a bit stuck. Ended up giving us a great deal more trouble than the other side. Just something to know. We also didn't get the efficiency out of the last batch we'd hoped for. Probably closer to 75%. Better final wort volume though. However we had to work up the gravity a bit. So... sigh if it isn't one thing it's another.

We'll keep you posted. It was only our third batch. I'm not too worried yet. We had over a year on the last system. We haven't even gotten this one entirely set up yet.

And yes, we will be at GABF, again I doubt we'll be "boothing" this year, but we'll be there. It would be fun to arrange a meet and greet for anybody who's going. I really enjoyed meeting Jon (Punity) and his wife last year.

Tomorrow we'll be running batch 4. This next one will be our I.P.A. Nobody can say we aren't banging them out, by golly!

 

[ImNoExpert]

Are those stainless steel CFCs near the bottom? It seems like all the large commercial systems have them. They look so tiny for the batch size but I assume they work.

I noticed that too. Muddy, I assume you have some kind of coolant that you run through there instead of tap water?

Edit: Nevermind. I see we almost simul-posted.

 

[brewfun]

The trick is managing the flow rate for each basket in and out so each of them maintain the same amount of mash density throughout the mash process. It's not a trivial process.

I WOULD really like to see one of those 4 hour brew days though. That would be AWESOME!

The key is setting the correct wort velocity for the mash geometry. Narziss showed that 0.29 cubic inches of wort per square inch of false bottom was the optimal flow with first wort. This is based on commercial grain loads of about 40 pounds per square foot.

From the pictures of the Colorado System and the dimensions they give, the pots look about 28" across? If so, that's 615 square inches of screen. A 1.050 wort will be about 28 lbs/ft^2 and a 1.075 should weigh in just shy of 50 lb/ft^2. So, on the heavier end, recirc and first wort flow rate should be 185 in^3. That translates into a flow 3.2 quarts per minute during all recirculation and initial runoff. The lower grist weight could run about 25% faster, at about 4.5 qts/min (268 in^3/min).

In any mash tun, maximum flow range for the whole sparge is from 0 to 1" of vacuum under the false bottom. Anything over 1" and you're compacting the bed. As the wort thins, the speed can be increased to the 1" differential and total sparge will still be 50 to 75 minutes. Luckily, you can do this by just eyeballing the basket and kettle liquid levels.

Their video briefly mentions a sparge method that raises the basket continually. I'd use this this method, keeping the top of the basket water level an inch or less above the kettle level. Then once all the water is in, keep raising the basket at 1" per minute until it's clear of the kettle. Just a guess, but this should put you close at or over 90% efficiency.

I'm currently working through this same issue with a 40 bbl brewhouse. It gets ugly when a 3000 lb grist gets stuck. In this case, vourloff and first runnings need to be just 10 gallons per minute, but by the end it's closer to 40. It's being accomplished through a redesign of the manifold so that the wort travels more smoothly. The expectation is 92 to 95% efficiency, or about 500 lbs less grain per batch. The manifold redesign pays for itself in less than 10 batches in grain savings, alone.

 

[ImNoExpert]

Hubba Wha?!

 

[MuddyCreek]

Last weekend was markedly better. 4 hours, 45 minutes.

 

[WilliamSlayer]

Do you feel like you are catching your stride with the new system? It sounds like it has only taken you a very few brews to hit a good time!

 

[schatzke]

I was hoping to see you last Friday in Billings for the brewers rendezvous but I guess I will need to get my butt to Butte to do some sampling.

 

[sandyeggoxj]

How is the new system treating you guys?

 

[DuckBrown]

Looks like I might be able to visit you next week I'm super excited to try your beer!

 

[MuddyCreek]

Hoo Boy, did y'all miss me?

It's been awhile. We've been doing man to beer combat down here for the last few months. Allow me to attempt to summarize.

Yes, we're still in business. Summer has taken us by surprise. Last year (our first summer) was very slow and we really sort of went into turtle mode. We figured that would be perfect as we got the new system hammered out and everything worked through.

This summer - not so much. With the festivals that Butte is so darn famous for and a seeming growing popularity for a couple of our products, the taproom is slowly becoming more and more populace a place. More importantly our demand for accounts far and wide is increasing.

We also went to a festival a few weeks ago with 4 beers and took home 3 medals. All bronze, true but still we were proud to take 4 products and place with 3 of them. That brings our total to 7 awards in a year and a half.

The downside to all this is that we are flat out overwhelmed in the brewery. I suppose that's a good problem to have. But as you've seen I haven't even had time to post here. We have been trying desperately to keep up with demand and it's been difficult. Moreover, we have an opportunity to expand in the next year if we can demonstrate that we can increase our accounts and our ability to service those accounts faithfully.

So... All work and no play and all that.

We will be in Denver again this year. No booth again. We aren't ready to distribute across state lines just yet so it doesn't make sense for us to set up shop over there. Best case scenario is we get people all excited for our beers that they simply can't get their hands on... So perhaps next year we'll have a booth ready for them all.

Anyhow, sorry for the long hiatus. I hope everyone is doing well. My oldest celebrated her 18th birthday yesterday. I remain handsome despite a rigorous work schedule. As I'm reminded by our now lead brewer who helps out during the week also brews with me on the weekends, We have the best job in the world!