More "new" Mangrove Jack's yeasts - M12 Voss kveik and M66 Hophead

[ebbelwoi]

Just stumbled across these today on the MJ site:

https://mangrovejacks.com/collections/craft-series-yeasts/products/kveik-yeast-10ghttps://mangrovejacks.com/collections/craft-series-yeasts/products/m66-hophead-ale-yeast-250g
Could they be repackaged Lallemand Voss and Verdant?

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Given that we know Lallemand are a significant supplier to MJ, I think it's fairly safe to assume that the MJ Voss is probably repacked Lallemand Voss.

M66 Hophead is interesting, as they are adding an "enzyme" (I'm sure I saw somewhere a glucosidase) to the mix as a way to give themselves a bit of differentiation - not a bad move if the economics work for them.

Timing is interesting - it could be New England and it's just taken them time to work out the enzyme addition, or it could be Verdant.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

... adding an "enzyme" ...

So making a starter or re-pitching these strains might be a bad idea?

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Well the enzyme is only in the M66, and with repitching you lose the benefit of the enzyme but you'd still have the yeast, which would still be the same as whatever Lallemand (or AN Other) is selling.

Glucosidases do help, but it's not a OMG-my-beer-is-ruined if they're not around.

 

[ebbelwoi]

...it could be New England and it's just taken them time to work out the enzyme addition, or it could be Verdant.

New England does seem a bit more likely, especially with this line in the description:
perfect for New England, hazy and fruit forward IPAs

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Well given the recent trend towards using 1318 over Conan for hazies, then you could argue that's a better fit for Verdant (derived from 1318) rather than New England (derived from Conan).

 

[beervoid]

Well given the recent trend towards using 1318 over Conan for hazies, then you could argue that's a better fit for Verdant (derived from 1318) rather than New England (derived from Conan).

I found a post on the uk homebrewforum reporting it finished in 60h and no huge krausen so that doesnt sound like the verdant yeast to me.
Curious which yeast it is then as the conan dry yeast is such a poor performer.
I ordered a bag and will test it out.

 

[Protos]

My 0.0002 cents to the treasure of collective experience with Hophead M66.
I spent a lot of precious Citra to make a NEIPA: nominal bitterness 56 IBU, no bittering charge, a sackful of numerous staggered late, whirlpool and dry additions.
The bitterness apparently hit the spot, however the beer was almost devoid of flavour and aromas. It tasted and smelled far less hoppy than 2 very similar American IPAs I brewed right before it (similar grainbill, same calculated IBUs, different hops and yeasts: Columbus+US05 and Mosaic+M42).
This yeast looks like a close relative to Nottingham/M42: it's quick, slightly estery, attenuative, flocculent and not prone to "overkraeusening". And it has ruined almost all hop flavour in my NEIPA, thank you MJ. Go home Hophead, you are drunk.
It's a perfect yeast for fine English ales, which will be wnat I gonna use this yeast for from now on. No IPAs, no more wasting precious hops. US05 batch was the best of the three, btw.

 

[Protos]

My another beer with M66 Hophead: a Best Bitter recipe from Crisp's website.
Fast fermentation, 77% apparent attenuation, beer is crystal clear after 2 weeks in fermenter + 2 weeks in bottles.
26IBU, EKG & Fuggle in additions at 60, 30 mins, whirlpool and hopstand.
Same as with my NEIPA above: severely reduced hop flavour and aroma (in comparison to my other bitters fermented with Nottingham or M36).
The yeast definitely mutes hop flavours (though doesn't seem to affect overall bitterness). At least, with my setup and my water.

Next I will try Lalbrew New England and compare the two.

 

[beervoid]

I had the same experience, drops clear and produces a poor hoppy beer.
Nice "biotransform" marketing gimmick that under delivers

 

[beervoid]

This is an interesting thing though, does this mean the biotransformative properties have a negative effect on hop flavor?

 

[dmtaylor]

This is an interesting thing though, does this mean the biotransformative properties have a negative effect on hop flavor?

Biotransformation has basis in reality. But also in reality, it's a fad being chased, which may or may not be beneficial, and will certainly vary with different worts and different yeasts. So, as with so many things in this universe, YMMV.

 

[beervoid]

Biotransformation has basis in reality. But also in reality, it's a fad being chased, which may or may not be beneficial, and will certainly vary with different worts and different yeasts. So, as with so many things in this universe, YMMV.

Yeah I dont know what to make of it, but from my emperical evidence and I'be been chasing this particular dragon, it has not given me any definitive data

 

[dmtaylor]

Yeah I dont know what to make of it, but from my emperical evidence and I'be been chasing this particular dragon, it has not given me any definitive data

You will only find definitive data if you only listen to one camp or the other. Truth as always no doubt falls in the gray in between.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

This is an interesting thing though, does this mean the biotransformative properties have a negative effect on hop flavor?

If you think what's happening in biotransformation, the yeast is taking some of the original "hoppiness" and converting it into a mass of other chemical compounds. And some of those compounds will be below their taste threshold, so all things being equal, you might expect to trade a reduction in hop "intensity" for an increase in flavour complexity.

And certainly that's what I found with T-58 and Chinook, it had maybe 80% of the intensity compared to Liberty Bell but the single-note grapefruit turned into a more complex limey flavour. When Scott Janish compared 1318 to the Gigayeast Conan he also found a similar reduction in hop intensity (Citra/Mosaic/Simcoe) in the 1318 beer whilst also getting a bit of a lime note.

Nice "biotransform" marketing gimmick that under delivers

Personally my take would be that it has its place, but a British style is a bit of an odd beer to test a yeast marketed for biotransformation, something like an APA would be more appropriate IMO.

 

[beervoid]

Personally my take would be that it has its place, but a British style is a bit of an odd beer to test a yeast marketed for biotransformation, something like an APA would be more appropriate IMO.

I used it 2x in a heavily hopped neipa. Was quiet surprised how much of a difference it had compared to the other half of the split batch which I used 1318.
The beer came out clear, more bitter then the other half, tasted more like a wc ipa but not enough bitter to be a true wc ipa.

 

[beervoid]

@Northern_Brewer do you still use t58 sometimes?
A full pitch or a blend?
If so in what proportions?

 

[Northern_Brewer]

@Northern_Brewer do you still use t58 sometimes?

I've not had a chance to go back to it, it's definitely on the list to experiment more with but I have a fridge full of liquid yeast and haven't been drinking so much, so I've been concentrating more on the liquid yeasts lately.

 

[Tommy's Brews]

Would tweeking the water profile with extra sulfate increase the hop flavors? Waiting until fermentation is completed, then dry hopping and leaving for 3-5days before cold crashing?
It could possibly be corrected right back to the water profile and hitting the correct target for that particular yeast strain. Just a thought, because I'm currently using my own mix blend of kveik Voss + hophead (kveik hophead) in mu BIPA.
Would be interesting to test this in multiple glasses with different additives to see what balance is needed for the desired hop profile.

 

[Ninoid]

I brew beer with both Lallemand Voss Kveik and MJ M12 and got the same - lemon sour beer. I could say that both yeasts are the same.